Well, my mod is just a quick little hack I wrote one afternoon and doesn't have a nice interface or anything.
I tried out AutoTrinketLoader during last night's BWL raid and it worked fairly well. I like you can set up different priority sets, so for Naxx UD you could put the AD trinket in the mix. The only thing I didn't like was it wouldn't always swap out the trinkets when I'd FD during a boss fight with fairly quick combat pulses. The intervals for checking for the trinket swap is kind of long: 5 seconds.
You can fix that by going into the AutoTrinketLoader.lua file and the variable:
ATLOADER_CHECK_INTERVAL=5;
change to something shorter like 0.2 or less.
I modeled Earthstrike -> Devilsaur Eye -> Zandalarian Hero Medallion -> Jom Gabbar (using an average 389 attack power for its 20 second duration, yes rather arbitrary >.<), Feigning Death at every 30 seconds, and continually cycling the next one in at each FD...and the answer is...515.2 DPS.
\"...and then there are some who view Flex as some sort of God.\"
That's pretty weird. My FD button has petpassivemode macroed onto it, so that's not my problem, and i never put up serpent sting, because that's just stupid. I thought it might be a range issue, so i went to max range and still had the same problem. He'll also hateful strike you even when you're feigned provided he gets near you, which leads me to believe it's some kind of perma-combat aura. In any case, I wouldn't rely on trinket swapping too much inthat fight because it's possible you'll run into that problem.
I've noticed a bug where you are allowed to get out of combat after a FD if your pet is below 100% health. I think it only happens during boss fights, but I can't confirm. I've noticed it during Nefarion and C'Thun fights in particular.
I modeled Earthstrike -> Devilsaur Eye -> Zandalarian Hero Medallion -> Jom Gabbar (using an average 389 attack power for its 20 second duration, yes rather arbitrary >.<), Feigning Death at every 30 seconds, and continually cycling the next one in at each FD...and the answer is...515.2 DPS.
zhm and devilsaur eye are both rather subpar trinkets. although difficult to model, i'd like to see kiss of the spider, badge of the swarmguard and slayer's crest instead
I modeled Earthstrike -> Devilsaur Eye -> Zandalarian Hero Medallion -> Jom Gabbar (using an average 389 attack power for its 20 second duration, yes rather arbitrary >.<), Feigning Death at every 30 seconds, and continually cycling the next one in at each FD...and the answer is...515.2 DPS.
zhm and devilsaur eye are both rather subpar trinkets. although difficult to model, i'd like to see kiss of the spider, badge of the swarmguard and slayer's crest instead
I'll be attempting to model Kiss of the Spider (thottbot is down atm, dunno if it shares a cooldown or not 0,o. Allakhazam poster states it does not stack with Jom Gabbar, Earthstrike or Slayers Crest, yet does stack w/Rapid Fire and IAoTH) and Renataki's Charm of Beasts. The badge of the swarmguards rather sketchy to model (if you've got a way of expressing this mathematically, I'll take a stab at modeling it), no worse than Jom Gabbar I suppose.
To expand on this, I'm going to try modeling in Rapid Fire w/various trinkets over, say a 3 minute and 5 minute cycle (to account for full strikers and without).
\"...and then there are some who view Flex as some sort of God.\"
Hunters discussing in-combat trinket swap triggers my enrage. Fix vanish for raid pve please!
On topic, a 4 trinket rotation with jom, earthstrike, slayer's and kiss, possibly with badge + whatever of the others gives most benefit at rapid fire, would be interesting to see mathed out.
The only legitimate use of the BLINK tag:
Schrödinger's cat is [BLINK] not [/BLINK] dead.
Hey there, don't be too rough, first time poster here.
But what's to stop you from rotating 6 trinkets, and just feigning every 40 seconds (on non-aggro touchy situations)? Couldn't you then have a trinket active 100% of the time?
Rapid fire was modeled as getting an extra 2 auto shots and 1 extra aimed shot off during the 2 10 second intervals it is being modeled in.
I modeled it as the first shot being Aimed Shot, firing at ~2 seconds, followed by Multi shot. At 8 seconds the Aimed Shot cooldown is finished and ready to be fired again, at ~10 seconds the second aimed shot is fired, and at 12 seconds Multishot is fired again. At 16 seconds Aimed Shot is queued again and fires at the 19 second mark.
I used the time of 3 minutes, 5 minutes, 7 minutes and 15 minutes to show the results. The reason for using 15 minutes (aside from a marathon 10 man Onyxia attempt) will be shown later as the modeling of various timing of trinkets gets into the equation.
I feel reasonably confident in that math for the results below.
Note: DPS is calculated as Total Damage / Time Elapsed.
After 3 minutes:
No Trinkets, no Rapid Fire:
88438, 491.3 DPS
No Trinkets, 5m Rapid Fire:
91603, 508.9 DPS
No Trinkets, 3m Rapid Fire:
91603, 508.9 DPS
After 5 Minutes:
No Trinkets, no Rapid Fire:
147398, 491.3 DPS
No Trinkets, 5m Rapid Fire:
150562, 501.9 DPS
No Trinkets, 3m Rapid Fire (Rapid fire was popped again at the 3 minute mark):
153728, 512.4 DPS
After 7 Minutes:
No Trinkets, no Rapid Fire:
206354, 491.3 DPS
No Trinkets, 5m Rapid Fire (Rapid fire was popped again at the 5 minute mark):
212686, 506.4 DPS
No Trinkets, 3m Rapid Fire (Rapid fire was popped again at the 6 minute mark):
215852, 513.9 DPS
After 15 minutes:
No trinkets, no rapid fire:
442188, 491.3 DPS
No Trinkets, 5m Rapid Fire
451685, 501.9
No Trinkets, 3m Rapid Fire
458017, 508.9
Now that we have our baseline values, compare a static combination of Blackhands Breadth and Drake Fang Talisman versus Earthstrike and Drake Fang Talisman. To further breakdown the activated trinket portion, is it better to use the activated trinket as soon as its cooled down every 2 minutes, or ‘save’ it for Rapid Fire? I will be modeling this in with both the 5 minute rapid fire cooldown and the reduced 3 minute rapid fire cooldown.
First, the benefit of a static Blackhands Breadth and Drake Fang Talisman combination.
After 3 minutes:
No Rapid Fire:
91710, 509.5 DPS
5m Rapid Fire:
94990, 527.7DPS
3m Rapid Fire:
94990, 527.7DPS
After 5 Minutes:
No Rapid Fire:
152850, 509.5 DPS
5m Rapid Fire:
156130, 520.4 DPS
3m Rapid Fire (Rapid fire was popped again at the 3 minute mark):
159410, 531.4 DPS
After 7 Minutes:
No Rapid Fire:
213989, 509.5 DPS
5m Rapid Fire (Rapid fire was popped again at the 5 minute mark):
220549, 525.1 DPS
3m Rapid Fire (Rapid fire was popped again at the 6 minute mark):
223829, 532.9 DPS
After 15 minutes:
No Rapid Fire:
458549, 509.5 DPS
5m Rapid Fire:
468389, 520.4
3m Rapid Fire:
474949, 527.7 DPS
Now for Blackhands Breadth, Earthstrike being swapped out for Drake Fang Talisman, and using it every 2 minutes, regardless of Rapid Fires cooldown.
After 3 Minutes:
No Rapid Fire:
92820, 515.7 DPS
5m Rapid Fire:
96307, 535.0 DPS
3m Rapid Fire:
96307, 535.0 DPS
After 5 Minutes:
No Rapid Fire:
154387, 514.6 DPS
5m Rapid Fire:
157874, 526.2 DPS
3m Rapid Fire:
161154, 537.2 DPS
After 7 Minutes:
No Rapid Fire:
215953, 514.2 DPS
5m Rapid Fire:
222721, 530.3 DPS
7m Rapid Fire:
226208, 538.6 DPS
After 15 Minutes:
No Rapid Fire:
462220, 513.6 DPS
5m Rapid Fire:
472475, 525.0 DPS
3m Rapid Fire:
479243, 532.5 DPS
Now, keeping the same combination (Blackhands Breadth, Earthstrike, and Drake Fang Talisman), is it better to delay Rapid Fires cooldown for Earthstrike or vice versa? ie, essentially turning Rapid Fire into a 4 min cooldown for the strikers set, or 6 min cooldown without strikers?
Also, for the 15 minute mark, it is assuming that the DFT is not swapped out for Earthstrike 30 seconds from the end, as it is the end of the cycle.
First comparison, assuming a 3 minute Rapid Fire cooldown, delaying earthstrike for rapid fire, ie activating both every 3 minutes.
3 minute mark:
95624, 531.2 DPS
5 minute mark:
160935, 536.4 DPS
7 minute mark:
225989, 538.1 DPS
15 minute mark:
478377, 531.5 DPS
Second Comparison, delaying Rapid Fire for earthstrike (ie, earthstrike fires every 2 minutes, rapid fire every 4)
3 minute mark:
96393, 535.5 DPS
5 minute mark:
161532, 538.4 DPS
7 minute mark:
223184, 531.4 DPS
15 minute mark:
476768, 529.7 DPS
Third comparison, assuming a 5 minute Rapid Fire cooldown, delaying earthstrike for rapid fire, ie activating both every 5 minutes, earthstrike once in between rapid fires.
3 minute mark:
96307, 535.0 DPS
5 minute mark:
157191, 524.0 DPS
7 minute mark:
222245, 529.2 DPS
15 minute mark:
471829, 524.3 DPS
Fourth Comparison, delaying Rapid Fire for earthstrike (ie, earthstrike fires every 2 minutes, rapid fire every 6)
3 minute mark:
96307, 535.0 DPS
5 minute mark:
157874, 526.2 DPS
7 minute mark:
222928, 530.8 DPS
15 minute mark:
472683, 525.2 DPS
Conclusions:
One thing that is not immediately visible is the variation of DPS over time with the various timing of earthstrike with rapid fire. Obviously the 3 min cooldown with the strikers set allows a greater flexibility in timing for maximum DPS for a fixed fight length (I’d suppose that after a few fights it’d be possible to determine the average time it takes for each individual guild).
I’m doing up a graph to show the DPS over time for each combination/method in order to give a better visual description that I could with snapshots at 3, 5, 7 and 15 minutes.
Slayers Crest:
I combined this wonderful trinket with Blackhands Breadth and modeled it with the various timings of Rapid Fire.
To start:
Slayers Crest (Inactive) + Blackhands Breadth with no Rapid Fire:
510.7 DPS
Delaying Slayers Crest so that it matches up with Rapid Fire every 5 minutes (ie, fires once in between Rapid Fires):
3min: 539.1 DPS
5min: 527.8 DPS
7min: 533.2 DPS
15min: 528.6 DPS
Activating Rapid Fire every 6 minutes so that it matches up with Slayers Crest nets:
3min: 539.1 DPS
5min: 530.4 DPS
7min: 535.1 DPS
15min: 529.1 DPS
Next up, Kiss of the Spider! ~day or two.
\"...and then there are some who view Flex as some sort of God.\"
Sorry for digging up an old thread, but here's a hopeful bump for KotS and Swarmguard analysis :). I notice Elendril doing some beautiful DPS with KotS + JG, but he has amazing gear as well, so it would be nice to know how much of that comes from the trinkets and how much from just playing well and being well geared.
I picked up a KotS recently, and while the short cooldown and passive stats are delicious, the 15s activation duration feels painfully short after being used to the duration of Swarmguard.
I'm also somewhat torn about whether to use both simultaneously or to chain them. Simultaneous use lets me set up nice sequences like this:
0s - Pop Swarmguard
11s - Pop Rapid Fire (swarmguard is hopefully 5 procced by now, maybe 6)
15s - Pop KotS
30s - Swarmguard, RF and KotS all expire simultaneously. FD to swap Swarmguard out for a passive.
However just chaining them and having the AD trinket or at least BHB in the other slot seems to give better results (and is much less of a pain to manage). Swapping out KotS means losing the +hit on it though :(
This is an amazing thread, thanks for all of the leg work on the math.
I would just like to point out that this thread is extreme theorycraft and it is very easy to get wrapped up in numbers as final game dps. Just because you run the math doesn't mean the numbers will work that way in game. Basically, what I am getting at, trinket swapping is a pain in the ass and is far from perfect.
My current trinket lineup: Blackhands, ZG trinket, DFT, Earthstrike, Badge of the Swarmguard and Kiss of the spider.
For about a week after getting the Kiss I tried to figure out the best rotation of swapping, swapping back using CDs etc. It will drive you absolutely nuts. There are always times where you forget to pop a trinket at the exact CD, can't pop it because there are mobs in your face. Or you pop 2 CD trinkets and have FD resisted. Leaving you with 2 dead trinket slots for close to 1 minute, if you're are swapping to CD trinkets your looking at 2 minutes.
My final rotation in the end is to start boss fights with Earthstrike and Badge of the Swarmguard. The badge is a hugely under rated trinket and will provide more of a DPS increase than ES would alone. Add on top the added AP from ES and you will see some insane numbers. I don't use blackhands with badge because you are basing the DPS upgrade on luck... how often will 2 crit go off in a 30 second window? After the 30 second badge buff is completed I FD to Blackhands/Kiss and keep it up for the rest of the fight. The Kiss is an amazing trinket and should be popped every 2 min w/o hesitation. The rapid fire adds much more dps than any AP buff can try and compete with.
Try not to wrap yourself up in too much theorycraft and test what gives you the most consistent DPS increase in game.
i agree that the theorycraft paints a rosier picture than reality, but unless the differences in DPS without swapping are small, swapping usually seems to pay off. for instance, i'm usually behind our Ashjre'thul hunters on both bosses and trash other things being equal - but the days i bother to micromanage my trinkets, I can usually beat or at least compete with them - and it makes for a much more engaging fight than just watching my shot cooldowns :)
I think it's been mentioned already but if you're having trouble remembering to activate or swap in trinkets that are cooling down, consider using a mod like Cooldown Timers to display your cooldowns as bars and to alert you of cooldowns, and TrinketMenu to automate the swapping for you, and remind you when a trinkets are 30s from cooling down. I haven't managed to get TrinketMenu to auto-queue exactly as I want it to, but it still does a better job than hoping I remember to swap (especially on trash, if you care about trash DPS).
Disclaimer: The modellling below was done at 3am without too much careful thought.
And since we're talking about how awesome swarmguard is, here's my way of looking at the trinket: To compare it to a Jom Gobbar if I ever manage to get one, I looked at how much damage a fully procced Swarmguard gives my autoshots. Based on a small and thoroughly unscientific sampling, my autoshot crits from Huhuran's Stinger go from ~1100 to ~1300 on some low armour mobs. That implies my hits go from 478 to 565; since I have RWS, my hits actually went from 455 to 538, i.e an 83 damage increase.
Since i'm using a 2.7 speed bow, 83 damage added = 83 * 14 /2.7 = 430.8 RAP added (assuming the extra RAP was against a target with 0 armour).
Swarmguard usually takes about 10-12s to fully proc, leaving 18-20 seconds of an effective 431 AP to each autoshot (more effective AP to Aimed and Multi I think, since they hit harder anyway, and would hence get a bigger % boost from armour reduction).
So assuming my memory isn't as poor as it is, for autoshots with a 2.7 speed weapon Swarmguard gives 431 AP for 20s + <431 AP for ~10 seconds (rough average of 215.5 AP for those ~10s i guess). Compared to Jom Gobbar which gives on average 357.5 AP for 20s. But Swarmguard is a 3m cooldown, while JG is 2m. So over their cooldowns, Swarmguard is about a passive 59.9 RAP for me (varies according to buffs, gear, luck and mob's armour) and JG is a passive 59.6 RAP to anyone (doesn't vary).
Note: those calculations of passive RAP assume the trinket is dead for the rest of the cooldown. That's obviously not the case if you're trinket swapping. It wouldn't matter if both trinkets had the same effect duration, but since JG is only a 20s effect it gains a slighty edge over Swarmguard I think. Depends on how good the trinket you swap in to replace it is.
Interesting things to note: using a slower weapon like Ash would yeild bigger bonuses on autoshot hits from Swarmguard, but the effective AP added would be lower due to division by 3.4 instead of 2.7. Does that imply that JG is better for people with slower weapons or does the rising damage difference and falling effective AP balance out at a similar value?
I dont know why I posted all that, since I'm not really going anywhere with it. Maybe just to show a different way of looking at the effect than I'd seen elsewhere - I think it's a useful way to evaluate the trinket, but a proper analysis would require more info on mob armour and more reliable average hit values.
edit: updated to take RWS into account. Seems to imply both trinkets are equivalent for my gear with just MotW, BoK and Jagged Arrows. Looks like Swarmguard would be better with better ammo or more AP buffs, while JG would be better if I ever find a nice pair of 1h's to replace my AP-heavy Barb.
Since i'm using a 2.7 speed bow, 87 damage added = 87 * 14 /2.7 = 451 RAP added (assuming the extra RAP was against a target with 0 armour).
Wouldn't you need to account for RWS and the like when doing this? What I mean is under no talent circumstances 87 more damage is 451 AP however to get that effect with talents you need less AP because the contribution is multiplied by talents.
Since i'm using a 2.7 speed bow, 87 damage added = 87 * 14 /2.7 = 451 RAP added (assuming the extra RAP was against a target with 0 armour).
Wouldn't you need to account for RWS and the like when doing this? What I mean is under no talent circumstances 87 more damage is 451 AP however to get that effect with talents you need less AP because the contribution is multiplied by talents.
good point, i completely overlooked that. i'll go back and edit the post :(
I definitely agree that if you stay on top of trinket swapping its will boost your overall DPS.
I've tried all of the cooldown trinket mods, (Trinketmenu is the best by far if you haven't tried it) and didn't really like them. I would find that after a FD mid fight my earthstrike would pop back in my slot with a 30 second CD. Causing a dead trinket and the mob to be dead by the time the cooldown was over. Throw on top the 3 minute cooldown of badge and everything becomes staggered. None of the mods that I have been able to find swap sets, its always individual trinkets based on slot. The mod would work much more effectively for me if Earthstrike would not equip itself until badge was finishing CD. I was dealing with constantly staggered trinkets
Keep this last fact in mind regarding most of these trinkets. Using kiss as an example, the buff duration last 15seconds, FD and swap out to your next trinket. You have to swap back @ 1m 15sec to take full effectiveness of the haste effect. So if you pull agro and have to FD during that 1:15, chances are your not going to get stuck with a dead trinket and a missed rapid fire.
If you can swap trinkets effectively over the course of a 5 hour and never miss more power to you. Just trying to stress keeping it simple, use item rack and configure 2 maybe 3 sets that work well together and swap them. It will keep your dps higher in the end.
If you can swap trinkets effectively over the course of a 5 hour and never miss more power to you. Just trying to stress keeping it simple, use item rack and configure 2 maybe 3 sets that work well together and swap them. It will keep your dps higher in the end.
oh far from it, i screw up plently :) But i've been keeping my trinket swaps limited to one slot, alternating kiss and swarmguard, so i haven't had the staggering problem you have. And since Kiss has passive stats i usually want there isn't really a bad time to have it swap in. Swarmguard inadvertently swapping in at a bad time is a problem i've had though. Today I had excellent luck with my swarmguard equip CD coinciding with heigan fast phases both times i swapped it in, so I need to rewind and see if i can duplicate that kind of thing more often.
I think it's been mentioned already but if you're having trouble remembering to activate or swap in trinkets that are cooling down, consider using a mod like Cooldown Timers to display your cooldowns as bars and to alert you of cooldowns, and TrinketMenu to automate the swapping for you, and remind you when a trinkets are 30s from cooling down. I haven't managed to get TrinketMenu to auto-queue exactly as I want it to, but it still does a better job than hoping I remember to swap (especially on trash, if you care about trash DPS).
Question, I have been using the Trinket Menu for a while in an effort to do something like this, but I have never been able to figure out the script for it to automatically queue a trinket change like it does for the pvp trinket in the event editor. This topic interests me greatly as I have been trying to figure out how something like this works for a while.
i have every non-slayer's crest non-earthstrike trinket i could possibly want at this point. my swap rotation on naxx bosses is kots/badge to open with rapid fire (badge for 10 seconds to get stacks, then kots/rapid), and feign/swap to JG/seal, and when that's down, to KOTS/seal. i don't go back to badge mostly just for convenience of linking cooldowns - because it's on a 3 minute cooldown as opposed to 2, there's no convenient place to reuse it in the swap cycle - though if it's up at the same time as kots, i can swap to that profile if i'm paying close attention.
that seal would be mark of the champion, but the kel'thuzad quest is work 10k XP in the expansion! :)
Thanks Elendril, I might try using both KotS and SG at the start of fights. Mostly I don't because it feels wrong to use Swarmguard without that nice 81 AP in the other slot.
Originally Posted by Sylvanesti
Question, I have been using the Trinket Menu for a while in an effort to do something like this, but I have never been able to figure out the script for it to automatically queue a trinket change like it does for the pvp trinket in the event editor. This topic interests me greatly as I have been trying to figure out how something like this works for a while.
Hm, i'm not sure what you mean by the script to automatically queue a trinket, or the event editor. Are we using the same version of trinket menu? I believe i'm on the most recent version. It has a nice gui for setting durations, priorities and swap order on trinkets for each slot which is what i'm using - iirc right-clicking the minimap button brings up the GUI. Right now I just have it set up so that if one of the two trinkets I'm interested in is equipped but on cooldown while the other is not equipped but is usable (or will be usable in 30s), swap the other one in. I'd like to set it up to be a bit more intelligent, like if both are on CD, make sure KotS is equipped, since it at least has passive stats, but haven't quite worked out how to do that yet (or whether it's possible at all).
I definitely agree that if you stay on top of trinket swapping its will boost your overall DPS.
I've tried all of the cooldown trinket mods, (Trinketmenu is the best by far if you haven't tried it) and didn't really like them. I would find that after a FD mid fight my earthstrike would pop back in my slot with a 30 second CD. Causing a dead trinket and the mob to be dead by the time the cooldown was over. Throw on top the 3 minute cooldown of badge and everything becomes staggered.
This is just a small workaround you can use. TrinketMenu allows you a hotkey - Alt, I believe - that when you hold it down and click on one of your trinket slots displayed by TrinketMenu, it will toggle the auto-queue on/off. So if you need to FD and want to keep one or both of your trinkets equipped, simply Alt-click the two slots and do it.
Cumbersome, for sure, during those "oh-crap" situations where you have little time to do anything but hit your feign button, but the ability is there.
i use itemrack for swaps. i have 3 separate raiding profiles saved, but 3 of them have seal of the dawn, which makes swapping in spider wing annoying :-P
08/03/06, 4:00 PM
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