3. We chain pull (new mob incoming at 30% on the old mob).
4. We take awhile still to explain fights. Can this be largely eliminated except for Garr?
5. The point: we're taking 6 hours to do MC from Luci-Rags.
Ugh.
Assuming that our loot system (zero sum) will always take us about 30-45 (3-5 minutes per boss) minutes per run, what are some tips/tricks you would suggest? Specifics, please.
why do you have to explain any fights? don't people know what they're supposed to do?
put targets on mobs and assign tanks while you're pulling trash. even if you have to explain things to some people, you don't have to wait until you're standing in front of the boss to do it.
first off if there is anytime between pulls then you are wasting time. It takes a bit for people to just plop down and drink but just keep reminding them to drink during pulls and let others cover for you.
If you are not bring half a new raid each MC then dont waste time on explaining the fights. If they havent learned by now perhaps they need replacing. The best reason to have class leads is for people that are new to have someone they can direct questions to.
Distribute loot while moving. If you are MLing everything then you can send gear across the instance so people can be killing more mobs while you deal with the loot. If you are doing FFA have only those interested in gear to be sitting there or have people come back for the loot.
Setup groups for the next boss during trash.
Just doing that will cut alot of your time. You should be doing MC in a maximum of 5 hours but push for 4 hours.
Assuming that our loot system (zero sum) will always take us about 30-45 (3-5 minutes per boss) minutes per run, what are some tips/tricks you would suggest? Specifics, please.
Keep clearing while loot gets figured out. The corpse isn't going anywhere.
Assuming that our loot system (zero sum) will always take us about 30-45 (3-5 minutes per boss) minutes per run, what are some tips/tricks you would suggest? Specifics, please.
Keep clearing while loot gets figured out. The corpse isn't going anywhere.
Yep, this is something I'm encouraging. Basically regroup and start pulling as soon as the boss drops and loot is linked - the classes that want the loot can help clear - just have the eventual winners run back to pick up their loot.
I've been thinking about the fights, and I have the feeling that the only fights that actually require "setup" time are Garr and Domo. Every other boss should be a "run up and fight" kinda deal.
Assuming that our loot system (zero sum) will always take us about 30-45 (3-5 minutes per boss) minutes per run, what are some tips/tricks you would suggest? Specifics, please.
Keep clearing while loot gets figured out. The corpse isn't going anywhere.
Yep, this is something I'm encouraging. Basically regroup and start pulling as soon as the boss drops and loot is linked - the classes that want the loot can help clear - just have the eventual winners run back to pick up their loot.
I've been thinking about the fights, and I have the feeling that the only fights that actually require "setup" time are Garr and Domo. Every other boss should be a "run up and fight" kinda deal.
with the new raid icons, you can set up targets for garr while you'res till clearing trash. really doesn't need setup time at all.
Pretty much. I assign hunters to peel and offtanks to tank Lucifron and Gehennas's adds as we're finishing the last pull prior to them; same for Golemagg's adds, etc. Garr and Majordomo could be done the same way, but in practice I do stop and take a minute to make sure everyone has a unique target and is on the same page.
Our current makeup:
1. We're up to Vael in BWL.
2. Can take Rags to 13-14% before Sons spawn.
3. We chain pull (new mob incoming at 30% on the old mob).
4. We take awhile still to explain fights. Can this be largely eliminated except for Garr?
5. The point: we're taking 6 hours to do MC from Luci-Rags.
I must be missing something here. Our DPS was much worse (Rag to about 25% before Sons), we didnt chain pull (at least not intentionally) as aggresively (usually new mob incoming just after old one's dead) and full MC clear was about 4.5-5h for us (judging by damage meters - it was with at least 10% of raid slacking seriously). We skipped the tactics before bosses, tho (how long does it take for you?). We wasted most time on loot distribution and recoveries after wipes (those 4.5h runs were with no wipes). It probably helped that we didnt really assign tank targets (except for Garr), each tank always tanked same mob (left/right giant, core hound packs etc).
Our current makeup:
1. We're up to Vael in BWL.
2. Can take Rags to 13-14% before Sons spawn.
3. We chain pull (new mob incoming at 30% on the old mob).
4. We take awhile still to explain fights. Can this be largely eliminated except for Garr?
5. The point: we're taking 6 hours to do MC from Luci-Rags.
I must be missing something here.
You're not missing something. I think we just spend an inordinate amount of time explaining things. Your point is well taken...if tank #1 is always taking the "left" add and tank #2 always takes the "right" add, you can simplify things by quite a bit.
As far as putting icons on the adds on Garr - I guess someone can just stand and do that while the rest of the raid is clearing up to him. Duh. Save 3-5 minutes right there...assign the targets while still killing trash (just tell "Bobby" that he's got the diamond, etc) and you should be good.
Might get that fight down to 60 seconds of making sure there are no noob problems like double targets.
It's an interesting one this as we've just gone through the whole "speed up MC" process.
We were doing Mc in just over 4 hours and over the last few weeks I've managed to get this down to just under 3 hours without any real rush.
The main thing we;ve changed:
1. Chain pulling. We don't go as hardcore as multiple tanking sets, we just use two tanks, and have a hunter pulling for us. This hunter will grab the next thing when the current stuff is about to go down. The aim being that the next mob is reaching the raid as the previous one dies. That's not pulling as it dies, but being in the raid as it dies.
2. Looting. This used to take us AGES. The whole raid would stand around. Who knows why really, it just carried over from when we were learning. What we do now is that only the ML, those interested in the loot, and the designated DEer of the run stay at the corpse. Everyone else moves on. This way only around 5 people or so will still be around wasting time.
3. Boss explanations. We're a big guild, with around 80 active raiders on our DKP listings, we're not massively hardcore. And we've been recruiting a fair bit as people leave. So this meant teaching the whole guild stuff can take a while. But now we've stopped bothing to explain a we'll just carry the few who don't understand. They will ask in their class/group channel for a quick overview if they need it. As a raid leader during the final pull I'll be sorting out groups, tank windows, and dumping raid icons up (Garr clearly being the worst for this). Then when the mobs are down, I'm assigning out targets and duties. Sometimes this will be done during the last trash pull.
4. Skipping groups. We don't do this to the extreme. The main one is Shazzrah. We kill Garr, then clear two lave packs. Then pull Geddon to Garrs room. Next kill a couple more packs and pull Shazzrah to Garrs room. This will leave two lava packs and a dog next to shazzrah that never get killed. Then to get passed we pull the other dog and a pack using a hunter pet and sneak passed the other stuff.
Our DPS is stunning but we're more progressed than you are (killed Nef for the first time two weeks ago). We're not at all hardcore, and as I've said have a pretty big raid group, but going to a 3 hour run hasn't been hard at all.
The main thing you mention, do not accept that looting takes 40 minutes of a run, that's insane.
I was running a guild through MC back in april-july of last year, we had 0 bwl gear (the zone just released. and we sucked ass on Razergore). Ill give you our mages and rogues were incredible, just ask ret, they have like half of them, but we were running 3-4 hour MC clears. We didnt explain any fights while we did our runs, but we had tons of standing around before bosses like garr, geddon and shazz (positioning in a circle) and domo. We realistically could have pushed under 3 hours if we had just let our players do their jobs instead of covering all our bases. None of those fights are currently hard, and if your healers know which tanks to heal, your tanks know what to pick up and where to position it, then you shouldnt have any reason for a 6 hour clear. The hardest part of the zone is the flame packs, and you should have solid fr (150+) on all your melee by now anyway since you are on vael, which trivializes the packs anyway.
Oh, our loot took about 40-60 minutes as well. Our dps got rag to 40-50% by first submerge, never more than that, but we didnt have higher spell ranks, terrible luck with dps drops, no fury warriors, no mage talent reviews, no combat dagger rogues, etc.
I remember we used to port out to IF after Mag to avoid re-clearing the imps, but of course there would always be a few people that took their time in getting back to MC. Clearing through the imps backwards was much faster. I don't even know if you're alliance, but little changes here and there can make all the difference.
Anyway, here are some ideas, most of which we've done at some point:
-FFA looting on core hounds will help out a lot of you make sure to skin them all
-Having separate tactical and looting leaders might help a bit. The loot person can make sure to pick up all BoEs/etc while the raid is moving on
-Avoid deaths. Playing defensively will boost your dps and speed up the raid if people are dying to carelessness or whatever
-Have a good puller. Set someone up with RaidStatus if you use CTRA to monitor healer/dps mana and have them chain pull until they need to stop. I've noticed that our clear times can vary a lot just based on the puller.
-Maybe run DamageMeters. I don't like some of the things that DamageMeters encourage, but if you give people a short-term reason to push their dps further, that will probably help
-Cut back on hybrid class healing on trash. I'm sure a priest or druid would love to take a break from healing now and then to do some damage. Generally, trash mobs don't require 15 healers. (Assuming 5 slots per class) If one of them happens to be a priest with shadow weaving or a druid with either aura, that'll help a lot too.
-Get an Ony buff 15 minutes before the raid if you can. It'll do wonders for your dps. Hakkar or Rend buffs would be nice too I'm sure.
-If your tanks are quick and alert, pull core hound packs without assigning targets first. That would probably shave off 30s from each pull.
People probably start going afk during the flame packs that you see after Garr. That trash is probably the most miserable in the game, after the post-Twin Emps trash.
On Golemagg we've just been clearing the left half of the room and pulling him up the side. Though, it only really saves on like one pack pull I think ;)
And on Garr we just do what Arawethion said, just pull him and let it work itself out. A lot more fun that way, but we have the gear to mess around like that.
I think our record is just under 2 hrs.
Just pull Garr. It will work itself out naturally.
The new raid icons really make garr alot easier to organize. I still dont feel comfortable just pulling garr.
Really, the first few times you do it, it's one of the few ways to squeeze a bit of fun out of MC. If I'd gone back there any longer (I vowed to permanently abandon MC when I hit max Exalted), I would have had to resort to fighting Baron and Shazzrah at the same time.
We've been working on similar issues ... we're 'casual' raiders with a 3 hour limit on most raids. As we were closing in on Nef we wanted MC to be a one night raid. We were already chain pulling and had eliminated the port to IF after Maggs but 3:30 just wasn't happening and the east coast people were complaining about the late nights. Lots of guild discussion on how fast to loot, how long setup was taking and the like.
So I combat logged most of one clear and manually dug through the log for the dead times and posted the following on the guild forums:
Some stuff was immediately obvious, the fights we were dead familiar with were taking little setup time and little loot time. As we got deeper in the instance setup was taking longer, even for fights that we know well.
The improvement has been obvious, we're just over 3 hours and no one is complaining (except about having to do the instance at all).
There's some other great suggestions in here, a few healers DPS through trash (Smite FTW), we push on trash while the enchanters shard most of the T1, etc.
Download the movies of thoses guys doing it in an hour. While you may not have the DPS some of the same principles apply.
Some stuff was immediately obvious, the fights we were dead familiar with were taking little setup time and little loot time. As we got deeper in the instance setup was taking longer, even for fights that we know well.
The improvement has been obvious, we're just over 3 hours and no one is complaining (except about having to do the instance at all).
There's some other great suggestions in here, a few healers DPS through trash (Smite FTW), we push on trash while the enchanters shard most of the T1, etc.
Download the movies of thoses guys doing it in an hour. While you may not have the DPS some of the same principles apply.
We're casual too. It was good to see your breakdown on the time "wasted". I think our guild is at the point where it just needs some on-the-ball raid leadership to simply drive everyone through the instance. Once you hit 60mph, it's harder for folks to afk on you and slack.
Just pull Garr. It will work itself out naturally.
The new raid icons really make garr alot easier to organize. I still dont feel comfortable just pulling garr.
Really, the first few times you do it, it's one of the few ways to squeeze a bit of fun out of MC. If I'd gone back there any longer (I vowed to permanently abandon MC when I hit max Exalted), I would have had to resort to fighting Baron and Shazzrah at the same time.
I am pretty conservative in what i do and I just dont like taking any chances ever.
I dunno the only time I have real fun in MC is when I am drinking and then I can have fun doing just about anything. I dont hate MC(exhaulted but not 999/1000) but it certainly isnt fun for me anymore. I do wish blizzard would give something special like a corehound mount for getting max exhaulted since there will never be any new ones after the pre-MC group.
Anyway back on subject. here is the cliff notes version of how to speed up.
1.no time where you are not fighting something(if the warriors are slow I am pulling stuff).
2.kill stuff while loot is being distributed(if the person that sets up groups does loot split up the duties or be fast about double tasking)
3.if you are clearing MC dont explain the fights. Tell the tanks what they are tanking and pull. No ready checks no nothing.
4. A suggestion I have is explain to people if they take AFKs without telling you that that person will be booted from the raid. Trust me 1 time and they will not do it again. It takes 2 seconds to send a tell so no reason to not do it unless kids are holding knives trying to kill each other and then that person should know that those consequences were going to happen.
The only thing that readily comes to mind that hasn't been mentioned is maximize your debuff potential. Tell your hunters to keep Serpent Sting off. Keep up Sunder/FF/CoR on EVERY mob. If you have a hunter with Imp. Mark, he should be marking EVERY mob. Have your lowest geared Locks keeping up CoS/E/R on the mobs. If you have fire mages, have the worst geared one on Scorch duty. Etc.
TANKS YOU ARE TANKING DOGS COUNTERCLOCKWISE FROM THE DIAMOND - Bob, Joe, Jim, Mary, Sue - go.
Garr -- Shieldwall a warrior and pull him, tanks pick up 2 each, locks banish. No problems.
Clear all the garbage from garr/geddon/shaz - Kill garr, then while buffs are going around, be pet pulling shaz/geddon.
Do loot on the run. If you aren't killing something while loot is distributed, there's at least an hour of time.
Skip the 2 packs and the dog by golemag - just clear the stuff on the left and feed him a hunter pet, as long as you don't back up too much, you can fight him in the hall.
AOE sulfuron's adds - your rogues need to be quick with kicks, but it's faster.
Simplify tanking assignements.
Bob gets left, tim gets second left, jill gets bosses, jack gets right, todd gets second right. For the entire night. That's every single boss (minus garr who you're charging and banishing).
Tell your healers to take turns drinking and if they don't have to drink? tell them to DPS until they have to drink (so heal till the next healer gets back from drinking, DPS until mana pool empty, sit down to drink). If you're not emptying the priest mana bars into damage at a minimum on trash, you're doing something wrong. Alliance side-5 paladins can heal all of the trash for the entire clear (and they tend to) so you might as well get your smite/mindblast/lawlkitty on. Remind your druids to burn innervates on warlocks/mages during the trash.
No crappy debuffs allowed. Fire the hunters if they have serpent sting. Seriously.
First star to the right, and straight on till morning.
I'm in the same guild as Isstai, who posted above.
An extra point to make here is that we don't have HUGE dps. As a guild that has taken Nef, we have a fairly elite BWL crew, but that usually only makes up 50% of our MC raids. We tend to get Ragnaros to 35-45% pre-sons on a typical MC, and that's with mongoose level consumables across many people.
The main thing is the looting. Only the RaidTracker person, and those interested need to stay close to the body. As soon as everyone is up, loot gold, and make the next pull.
JUST doing this, speeds you up enough that you meet MANY less respawns. Our best time is near 3h30, more usually closer to 4h. We could do a lot better if we took our best team, but there's rarely a point to that at the moment.
08/01/06, 2:07 PM
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