Awesome, looking forward to 1.12 some nice things being implemented.

After looking into it a bit, it appears that the in-game code for displaying your buffs only shows up to 16 of them is because.... they only made 16 buttons to show the buffs. That's it. It'd be pretty easy to just extend that and make your own buff system to show up to (apparently) all possible 32 buffs. Here's a macro that will show you all your buffs in the chat frame, but keep in mind this only shows buffs with tooltip data (i.e. not the invisible set bonus / enchant buffs that are proving so troublesome), but it'll list all your visible buffs, even past 16:

thanks,
nothing beats direct devs-to-player communication :)

At the risk of contributing to a catch phrase, awesome.

Indeed, this simple change should prove incredibly convenient to most raid guilds.

On another note, is this a sign that devs are fleeing R&D too? :D

Thanks ;)

By the looks of it at the time you lose a titans buff you would also have lost crit immunity from 440 defence (assuming that you were about 430 before ZG enchants) and that you didn't change gear after drinking titans. This *might* explain some very rare occurrences people are reporting with getting crits even this high defence numbers (and other such very rare anomalies)? Some of these reports might just be gear enchants getting knocked off. Also, it seems that swapping gear with titans on is generally a bad idea. Much of the new problems with flasks dropping might be due to warriors swapping between wrath and conqueror for example? When they do that, they move titans to be one of the oldest buffs and thus the first one out (instead of enchants of little consequence such as 7 stamina)...

The question then becomes: before losing something obvious such as flask/defensive stance how many other enchants have you already lost without noticing it? Has anyone noticed drops in the amount of damage blocked (beyond the effect of crusader) when buffed to the max?

The issue with titans and stances is that after a death, those will be the first two buffs that are cast on the player. Now it will be Fort and Mark that get knocked off. But there's not much that can be done about that, as there's no good priority for buffs.

I have never seen an enchantment get knocked off. They might be pulsing with regards to their casting, being continously refreshed.

I have seen a tank lose precisely 100hp mid-Patchwerk, when he clearly had no buffs on him that added 100hp previously. That had to be an enchant.

Sorry for posting off topic, but a developer post be more appropriate on the official boards? I've seen Tigole post several times in here and if it becomes common knowledge EJ may have some bandwidth problems in future.

On topic, I don't know much about scripting, but would it be possible to make a mod that canceled buffs automatically? Being able to automatically remove things like divine spirit and arcane brilliance would go a long way.

You can make a mod that when you press a key/click a button will cancel a buff you don't need. That won't solve the problem. I doubt anyone would go in combat with any of those buffs after losing a flask.

From what I've read here it looks like some set pieces (ones for procs) work much like Badge of the Swarmguard. Not sure if everyone knows how it works, but in short it gives you a 30 second buff that allows you a chance to proc a 200 armor reduction. It stacks 6 times. It seems that Wrath works like this as well but the initial buff is permanent and the second buff is used up on a parry much like untalented Shiled Block.

Fair enough. I don't think this has ever happened to our guild before, we have only really regularly started using flasks and food recently on Huhu/TE. This sounds like this has only come a real problem as recently as Naxx, so there probably won't be a proper fix until expansion. :(

Hm, I think the easiest solution would be an "unlimited" buff range, but a limitation for "visible" buffs to 16 or 20 (or whatever).
You could raise the overall limit to 40, but every buff that is visible will not apply to the player if the limit for visible buffs was reached.
So all the enchantments etc. would stay and you could clearly see when you have reached the buff limit. Also since buffs don't get knocked off but simply cannot be applied, you can choose which buffs you would like to have, rather than having to accept that certain buffs will eventually fall off.

Easiest solution doesn't mean it's easy/possible with their engine...

Thought this was kinda neat, came up on WoWInterfaces about an hour ago:

http://www.wowinterface.com/download...CrepBuffs.html

Shows all the visible buffs, along with hidden ones such as set bonuses, stat modifiers from enchants and equipment, etc. Gave it a test run a few minutes ago and it certainly looks informative. However, it's a new addon and I'm wondering how accurate it is in counting the buffs.

Seeing the screenshot of that mod reminds me of something that used to happen to me very long ago. I've always ran as many addons as I've been able to find that did interesting, useful, or informative things. One of my favorites was GypsyMod, but for a time there was (what I then thought was just) an annoying bug.... it always showed a weird icon on my buff list with the name Freeze. It was only there with GypsyBuffBar, and only when I had my brand new Freezing Band on. Poking around on Thottbot just now, sure enough: http://www.thottbot.com/?sp=18799. I bought new gear too often then to bother enchanting it, so it's quite possible that the particular version of the addon that I was using actually showed ALL slot-using buffs. If so, it would be very useful indeed for finding the good and bad enchants/set bonuses/etc.

Going through my screenshot archive, I can't find any proof of this (though I was able to coax an affirmation from a friend just to prove to myself that I'm not crazy), but I can narrow the approximate time frame to Q1 or Q2 2005. If someone can find a backup archive of GypsyBuffBar versions from that era, maybe a close look at how it detected and drew buffs could disclose some info, assuming those UI functions haven't simply been changed beyond recovery. Most likely a dead end (for any of several reasons), but I read these forums enough that I felt I should contribute my little something just this once ;)

Very interesting mod linked by Axelrod... it can count up to 35 buffs, which really shows how confusing this situation currently is. I tried to find the post by "Trindade" that inspired the addon but was unsuccessful, so I'm curious as to whether his was an extensive discourse or merely a muse's insight. Perhaps someone could contact him in-game to see if he somehow knows more than we?

In any case, good news about 1.12 that I didn't know and a new addon for me, thanks for yet another thread that delivers.


P.S. Since TBC is upping the Debuff slot count to 40, perhaps a similar change may be occuring in Buff slots?

Just noticed something...

Equip/Unequip a pair of gloves with +15 agi (http://www.thottbot.com/?sp=23794) triggers an UNIT_AURA event.
Equip/Unequip unenchanted shoulders, 2nd piece of dreadnaught doesn't trigger an UNIT_AURA event even though I gain/lose the 2 piece bonus (http://www.thottbot.com/?sp=28844).
Also, items with "Equip:" don't trigger aura events either.

not sure how many people have looked into this mod yet, I was playing around with it on my warrior, and here's the shot + explanation:



1: Strength +8 (lionheart helm)
2: Improves your chance to get a critical strike by 10 (lists the items, starting with Lionheart then Ony Tooth pendant)
3: Improves your chance to hit by 14 (lists items, starting with Lionheart then Ony Tooth pendant)
4: all stats +4 (breastplate of heroism)
5: Strength +8 (Titanic Leggings)
6: Agility +25 ((7) Chromatic boots, (15) Gauntlets of Might, (3) Drape of Unyielding strength)
7: Strength +9 (wristguards of true flight)
8: Increased defense +5 (Gauntlets of might)
9: +24 Attack Power (lists items)
10: (Darkmoon Card Heroism description)
11: Crusader (Quel'Serrar)
12: (Quel' Serrar proc description)
13: Crusader (Brutality Blade)
14: No mouseover description (ooh invisible buff! )
15-19 are obvious, normal stuff
Main: is a dense sharp stone I used just to test the mod.. Interesting that it's not listed as a Numbered buff

Anyway, I died while alt-tabbed writing this post (damn rock spiders), and the passive list and my Stance did *not* change between Dying, Releasing, ghosting, and rezzing. It stayed constant, didn't flicker or anything.
The mod takes about 2 seconds after an item change to update the passive buffs, and from what I can see it doesn't list them in any priority, just by the item position, so you see my Lionheart helm, then the Ony necklace starts the 10 crit and 14 hit stack, then chest (no shoulder enchant, they are new), legs, then I find the 6th confusing, because that's the agi stack, from Boots, Gloves and Cloak enchants, shouldn't this be higher up? (maybe that works off the last item found going down the list, being boots?)... but then the next one is my Bracers enchant of 9 STR, THEN gloves defense, then AP (is from a ring and ranged weapon), then Heroism card, then both weapons Main then Off.

So yeah, I'm not sure what ordering system it uses to list the passive buffs, or if they are indeed correct in numbers and stacks. Note the two +8 str Libram enchants, and the +9 str bracers don't add together like the Agi stack at spot 6. I then added a pair of gloves with +str enchanted on them, and THAT didn't stack with the +9bracers or +8 helm/legs.. so I am not sure about the reliability of these numbers on the passive buffs..
Also the +str enchant and librams are all classed as "equip", but the +agi enchants are lumped together as +agi

If my whole guild wasn't offline I'd stage a full raid/potion buffed one and see what numbers things start dropping off me.. Anyone want to run that for us and post the screenshots?

I have a feeling this mod is a good start, but some of the passive classifications and groupings need to be worked on, or confirmed that that's how they DO stack in game.

Just one thing: Isn't the mod contradicting what others said earlier? Someone said that the +3 hit scope did use a buff slot while the 6 damageblabha something didn't. This mod lists both.

Thoughts? Just not sure how credible it is, but either case, it gives a good estimation. My mainly blue geared warrior, who lacks enchants on lots of parts and is generally wearing crap, managed to selfbuff to 22 buffs with recklessness, zerker rage, bloodrage, battle shout and stoneform. My mage can only manage like 15 buffs and that's with Ice armor, amplify magic, intellect, fire ward and combustion.

Seems like warriors gear, their enchants etc is taking up huge space oO

My warrior is lacking a scope at all (who would scope a Wiley's Howitzer? :P), and has no ZG enchants,
I would love to see someone with ZG enchants post a SS of that mod saying how many buffspots it takes up.

and yeah, i'm not convinced of it's reliability, we need someone to do a buff numbers test to see where things start falling off.

OK, just logged on, bought a few cheap pots, and spent all of 3 minutes asking people for help.
My results, using that mod linked earlier:


Unfortunate that the mod only tracks 35 buffs. You can see that after I filled it up with buff slots, I gained Battle Shout, Regrowth, Rejuvination, Fire Ward, Slow Fall, and Swift Zulian Tiger. 23 visible buffs, 40 total buffs as that mod would see them. With 40, nothing was knocked off, so at least 8 of the Passives listed don't take up real buff slots.

Info on the visible Passives:

4: NW 3-Piece aggro reduction
9: Minor Speed boot enchant
11: Minor Mount Speed glove enchant
12: Freezing Band proc
14: Carrot on a Stick mounted speed bonus
17: +5 Resists back enchant
18: Onyxia Scale Cloak's Shadow Flame protection

Other observations:
It seems at a glance that most, but not all, green text (enchants, equip:, etc) are stacked with similar bonuses and considered a single buff by this addon. 2x Freezing Band, however, generated TWO Proc: buffs, so it seems that this thing might be able to help determine how some buffs interact... the way it reads those Bands, one would assume that they could BOTH proc off of a single attack, which I've never seen but may be possible. In any case, it doesn't see them as an additive 2% proc the way that it sees, for example, +Frost damage gear and the +20 Frost Damage glove enchant. ZG head and leg enchants stacked with my current +spell(all) and +spellhit buffs, rather than being a seperate buff containing both. The +5 resist(school) shoulder enchant generates a general (School) Resist buff with a non-'+' icon, while the +resist back enchant generated an Equip: with a '+' icon,though I don't know what the +5 resist(all) shoulder enchant does. Elixir of Detect Undead did NOT generate an invisible buff, even though it did enable the minimap detection... but then, anyone who knows anything about the WoWhacking scene already knows that all of the Detect (Something) routines are actually done client-side based completely on flags normally set by the server, and don't normally require buffs.

My quick guess on buff mechanics: everything in the Passive buff section except for the ones with the '+' symbol (Set Bonus:, Equip:, and Proc:) isn't actually a buff as far as the game's 32 buff limit is concerned (certainly, I don't have that backwards. Then, I would have knocked one buff off). I was presumably only 3 real buffs away from knocking something off if that's how it works, so surely someone can spend about 10g and get several people together specifically for that.


:edit: Notice also that Glodsson's SS shows the +stat Librams as '+' Equip: buffs that don't stack on each other the way that his Agility does, and the Crusader enchants are also seperate buffs similiar to my Freezing Bands showing that they can seperately proc and stack, which (without ever having had a character with Crusader) I believe is how the enchant actually functions. Good news about Crusader that didn't require extensive fighting to determine (though presumably the actual proc buffs take additional buff space instead of temporarily rewriting those invisibuffs, SOMEONE TEST!), and bad news about Librams.
Additionally, his Berserker Stance buff is only one slot on here, as opposed to the fear from some that it would be several: one for -threat, one for +crit, one for extra damage taken.

:re-edit: Glodsson, just noticed a couple of the odd points that you mentioned in your post, re: how some enchants stack or don't. My MP5 on bracer and Spell Power on sword stacked with their respective buff stacks, but I notice that your +9Str bracer enchant shows as Equip: instead of the icon that would be used by simply having extra strength, which would presumably be simply, '+ Strength'. It seems that NO Equip: buffs stack on each other, but they're chosen seemingly at random which are Equip: and which are + (Stat). My +int, +spi, and +sta enchants all worked as + (Stat), but they were all old pieces with +5 or +7, so it seems only some of the strongest (req. skill ~300?) enchants are the presumably unfortunate Equip: sort. How did your +str gloves show?