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Old 08/02/06, 2:22 PM   #1
 Arawethion
Tree of Calculation
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special...orycraft&go=Go

How to begin?

Read before asking questions:
Moonkin guide/spreadsheet, http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
Resto guide/spreadsheet, http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t88239-r...al_discussion/
 
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Old 08/02/06, 2:34 PM   #2
Adalys
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Originally Posted by Arawethion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=theorycraft&go=Go

How to begin?
You "begin at the beginning", to misquote the Queen. With a topic.
 
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Old 08/02/06, 2:41 PM   #3
 Arawethion
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Originally Posted by Adalys
Originally Posted by Arawethion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=theorycraft&go=Go

How to begin?
You "begin at the beginning", to misquote the Queen. With a topic.
Actually, now that I think about it, the topic I had in mind had kind of drifted away from WoW, really having more to do with StarCraft than anything.

I was thinking about the topic of abstractly predicting the outcome of combat based on the aggregate statistics of the participants. Maybe it could be applied to imaginary large-scale WoW PvP, which would be kind of neat.

Read before asking questions:
Moonkin guide/spreadsheet, http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
Resto guide/spreadsheet, http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t88239-r...al_discussion/
 
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Old 08/02/06, 3:06 PM   #4
Nite_Moogle
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I can't start on my next project so I'm attempting to write a DPS calc in C# for warriors. :|

Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Eh, my nostalgia goggles aren't as good as they used to be.
 
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Old 08/02/06, 3:10 PM   #5
 Arawethion
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Originally Posted by Bane
Sounds like you don't have enough work to do. Seems like someone should let one of the Ian's should know... :ninja:
Hey, I'm still technically an intern.

The fun part, is that, in essence, this is work. It's just that I'm a theorist at heart, so when I'm assigned to try to balance the stats of some units, the quadratic formula soon gets involved.

Read before asking questions:
Moonkin guide/spreadsheet, http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
Resto guide/spreadsheet, http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t88239-r...al_discussion/
 
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Old 08/02/06, 4:03 PM   #6
 Kalman
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Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
I can't start on my next project so I'm attempting to write a DPS calc in C# for warriors. :|
I can't start on my next project, which is why a comprehensive cycle analyzer for rogue CP/energy cycles appeared. :/

Originally Posted by Vontre
Oh, nah, I just type things for the sake of typing things. ^_^
Originally Posted by Lyta
The dog nailed me like three times that day. It resulted in my ass hitting the ground and my legs waving in the air.
 
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Old 08/02/06, 4:12 PM   #7
 Arawethion
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The problem is that WoW doesn't have anything that really lends itself to abstract modeling. Fights aren't won by strategy; they're won by puzzle-solving.

The only possible exception is raid-wide healing strategy. It might be kind of fun to model a few different incoming DPS patterns, and see how they interact with a variety of different healing schemes. For example, find the lower bounds for overheal%, and things like that.

Maybe I'm just on a crazy theorycraft kick after reading that ludicrous Four Horsemen thread.

Read before asking questions:
Moonkin guide/spreadsheet, http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
Resto guide/spreadsheet, http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t88239-r...al_discussion/
 
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Old 08/02/06, 4:20 PM   #8
Lurchington
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I hate my job, so I made a gigantic gear comparison/healing calculator for priests :x

Originally Posted by Arawethion
Maybe I'm just on a crazy theorycraft kick after reading that ludicrous Four Horsemen thread.
where at? In R&D?
 
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Old 08/02/06, 4:26 PM   #9
 Arawethion
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Originally Posted by LurchDawg
I hate my job, so I made a gigantic gear comparison/healing calculator for priests :x

Originally Posted by Arawethion
Maybe I'm just on a crazy theorycraft kick after reading that ludicrous Four Horsemen thread.
where at? In R&D?
Yeah. It was kind of fun, although my guess is that it's not seriously useful for people trying the fight.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...p=1#post639595

(Is public discussion about the Horsemen kosher yet? Are they in pre-fix C'Thun territory?)

Read before asking questions:
Moonkin guide/spreadsheet, http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
Resto guide/spreadsheet, http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t88239-r...al_discussion/
 
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Old 08/02/06, 4:31 PM   #10
hamlet
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yeah I spent about 45 mins reading the thread. Interesting and intimidating for a person that is not in that realm of raiding yet. I wonder exactly how accurate some of the information in there is. Typically you cant trust anything on those boards.

 
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Old 08/02/06, 4:39 PM   #11
 Navaash
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If you create that article the many overzealous Wikipedia admins will probably nuke it right away for:

- not being encyclopedic
- not being notable
- veering too much into "fancruft"
- insert admin's pet peeve here
 
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Old 08/02/06, 4:42 PM   #12
 Arawethion
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Originally Posted by Navaash
If you create that article the many overzealous Wikipedia admins will probably nuke it right away for:

- not being encyclopedic
- not being notable
- veering too much into "fancruft"
- insert admin's pet peeve here
Yeah, more likely I'm going to start just pursuing some uselessly esoteric theory topic on this thread. Anything I'm doing would be too technical for Wikipedia. It would be fine for WoWwiki, but WoWwiki generally annoys me.

Read before asking questions:
Moonkin guide/spreadsheet, http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
Resto guide/spreadsheet, http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t88239-r...al_discussion/
 
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Old 08/02/06, 6:07 PM   #13
 Arawethion
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Actually, let's talk about Mages for a bit. I'd like to refine the workings of my spreadsheet and otherwise think about this. (Aside: this analysis all applies well to Hunters).

Basically, as a Mage, you're always in some casting cycle, defined by
1) What you do on Clearcasts
2) What you do otherwise.
[3) What you do on NW procs]

For example, my most commonly used casted cycle is [NCC: Frostbolt 11; CC: Frostbolt 11], but when I'm trying to regen, I might use [NCC: Frostbolt 4; CC: Arcane Missiles 8]. For any cycle, it's not very hard to compute the average DPS and MPS; my chart already has the machinery for this.

-------

The next step for real Mage optimization is how to correctly use different cycles to do the highest possible damage in time T with mana M. For now, we will assume that all mana gain abilities (pots, gems, and Evocation) are simply added to your starting mana to determine the target net mana consumption (i.e. we won't worry about the intricacies of using them in the right order, and assume it works out ideally).

So we a have a variety of cycles i. For each one, the DPS d_i and MPS m_i are known. Within a fight, each of the cycles is used for time t_i (note that order does not matter). Our goal is to maximize d_i*t_i (summation implied) while m_i*t_i = M and \sum(t_i) = T. At first glance, the problem seems well-defined.

Mathematical interlude, because applying topology to WoW is a rare opportunity to put my degree to use :ph34r: :
In fact, the second constraint gives a hypersphere in the n-space of possible choices, and the first constraint gives a surface which intersects it in a compact subspace. As we all know, continuous maps on compact spaces have extrema. Hence, there exists a best strategy. (if the two surfaces don't intersect, it means that using all your mana in the fight is impossible, in which case the optimum strategy is clear).


Conjecture: there will be no more than two nonzero t_i. This is based on intuition for the moment, but I want to write it down so I can revisit it later.

-----

Assume for the moment that there are only two cycles worth considering (as is the case for many Frost mages, much of the time). The behavior in the fight is already fixed by a system of two simultaneous linear equations:
t_1*m_1 + t_2*m_2 = M (note to self: don't make a sign error if you put this in the spreadsheet.)
t_1 + t_2 = T
. . .
simple algebra
. . .
t_1 = (M - T*m_2)/(m_1 - m_2)

D = (M*(d_1 - d_2) + T*(m_1*d_2 - m_2*d_1))/(m_1 - m_2)

-----

Not a bad conclusion in itself, but it raises the question: assuming the conjecture is true, how do I pick the right two cycles based on my setup, on M, and on T?

To be continued.

Read before asking questions:
Moonkin guide/spreadsheet, http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
Resto guide/spreadsheet, http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t88239-r...al_discussion/
 
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Old 08/02/06, 6:12 PM   #14
Nite_Moogle
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Simple algebra does not include the word "hypersphere". Ever.

Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Eh, my nostalgia goggles aren't as good as they used to be.
 
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Old 08/03/06, 1:45 PM   #15
 Arawethion
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Originally Posted by Arawethion
(Is public discussion about the Horsemen kosher yet? Are they in pre-fix C'Thun territory?)
Actually, I'm still interested in this question (I took the Mage theory to a new thread).

Read before asking questions:
Moonkin guide/spreadsheet, http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
Resto guide/spreadsheet, http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t88239-r...al_discussion/
 
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Old 08/03/06, 1:50 PM   #16
hamlet
King Hippo
 
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Sargeras
I dont know if people have fought him long enough to determine that. People bashed their heads against C'thun longer than this before it was determined to be impossible.

 
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Old 08/03/06, 1:56 PM   #17
Humbaba
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Originally Posted by hamlet
yeah I spent about 45 mins reading the thread. Interesting and intimidating for a person that is not in that realm of raiding yet. I wonder exactly how accurate some of the information in there is. Typically you cant trust anything on those boards.
The guy that started the thread is in a guild that hasn't killed Nef yet (unless it was very recently) so it's almost certainly theorycraft from pure numbers rather than theorycraft from experience.
 
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Old 08/03/06, 1:59 PM   #18
hamlet
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Originally Posted by Humbaba
Originally Posted by hamlet
yeah I spent about 45 mins reading the thread. Interesting and intimidating for a person that is not in that realm of raiding yet. I wonder exactly how accurate some of the information in there is. Typically you cant trust anything on those boards.
The guy that started the thread is in a guild that hasn't killed Nef yet (unless it was very recently) so it's almost certainly theorycraft from pure numbers rather than theorycraft from experience.
As it usually is, It was an interesting read still.

 
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Old 08/04/06, 7:33 PM   #19
Nite_Moogle
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Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
I can't start on my next project so I'm attempting to write a DPS calc in C# for warriors. :|
http://www.savefile.com/files/2878165
Some readability issues I didn't notice until I tried it at home, but I'm pretty sure the math is correct. I wouldn't have been able to do even this much without the EJ forums for formula reference.

Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Eh, my nostalgia goggles aren't as good as they used to be.
 
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