Old JP system discussion thread

Graham · 03/22/05, 6:40 PM

Closed. New thread and new discussion thread coming within moments so settle down there tex.

Pigz · 03/22/05, 6:49 PM

This is a pretty great system.. zero-sum wise. One of the more fair systems.

theres one huge problem though..

those fucking druids and their luck :(

LodeRunner · 03/22/05, 6:52 PM

Originally Posted by Graham,March 22nd, 2005 @ 4:40pm

The important thing to realize about this system is that it is
zero-sum. That means that the total of all points in the system, both
positive and negative, is always zero. If you don't get economics
that may seem useless to you, but what it means is that the points
retain the same value over time, as there is no possibility for
inflation.

System, The Second
After each final boss kill in Strat/Scholo/UBRS/LBRS the raid leader takes a screenshot of the dead boss and the open raid window. This gets posted to a thread were some nice vollunteers give each of those persons a point in the instance JP database.

Something drops while it's FFA loot and multiple people want it: Roll normally.
Something drops while it's RR loot and multiple people want it: It's the RR's.
Something drops from a boss: Everyone who wants it rolls once. The losers may spend up to 5 JP to gain extra rolls. Once those are done, if there is a new winner, the original winner may spend up to 5 JP to roll 5 more times. Results then stand. Persons who lost get half their JP spent back, persons who won do not. The spending and results of rolls are included in the screenshot post by the raid leader.

Ah ok... To clarify the first system for some people, zero sum means that if you were to add all the points accumulated by everyone both positive and negative, it would come out to be 0 (zero). When one person loses a whole bunch of points everyone else very slightly gains some.

Question on the second part though. Do you round up or down on JP if someone used 3 JP rolls and still lost. What's half of 3 in that case?

Graham · 03/22/05, 6:55 PM

* 4-5 JPs used = 2 recycled
* 2-3 JPs used = 1 recycled
* 1 JP used = 0 recycled

Always down. For those of you mathematically inclined, spending two JP is the best option, three if you want a not-as-good-but-feels-better option.

Also, once you grasp the beauty of the zero point system all sorts of other nice things become avaliable. For instance, we give everyone on the raid Raid JP when a Firey Core, or Lava Core, or Core Leather drops. Then when someone in the guild uses them to have a guild crafter make the high-end thorium brotherhood stuff made, they pay back the Raid JP those items generated when they dropped. This gives us an easy manner of tracking and fairly allocating other items that can only come about from collective effort.

Stalkman · 03/22/05, 7:00 PM

After you've spent a good ammount of time in instances you'll find yourself either spending 5 JP or none at all. The instance JP system really works well as a transition to what it's going to be like on the 40 man raids. It's far from perfect, but it's really good when you're only looking for an item or 2.

Although I've only spent 5 JP twice, and lost the item both times. Oh well, there's better things in MC where Im guaranteed something eventually.

Kaubel · 03/22/05, 7:03 PM

Originally Posted by Pigz,March 22nd, 2005 @ 4:49pm

This is a pretty great system.. zero-sum wise. One of the more fair systems.

theres one huge problem though..

those fucking druids and their luck :(

Druid loot hasn't really dropped more than any other class loot. There's just less of us meaning more loot per person. :)

Pigz · 03/22/05, 7:18 PM

Originally Posted by Kaubel,March 22nd, 2005 @ 5:03pm

Originally Posted by Pigz,March 22nd, 2005 @ 4:49pm

This is a pretty great system.. zero-sum wise. One of the more fair systems.

theres one huge problem though..

those fucking druids and their luck :(

Druid loot hasn't really dropped more than any other class loot. There's just less of us meaning more loot per person. :)

I said that because of the example and because we've had quite a few druid drops in or raids. 3 in a day once I think. The next most have been priest drops. So far only 1 warrior drop and 0 rogue drops :(

Cardrian · 03/23/05, 2:47 PM

Originally Posted by Graham,March 22nd, 2005 @ 4:40pm

Magmadar dies and drops drood boots. These are valued at 125 points. They get disenchanted and Tony cries.

fixed for clarity

digiwano · 03/23/05, 9:08 PM

The zero-sum system is pretty cool, it's really a shame you didn't come up with that awesome of a system before the split.

Graham · 03/23/05, 9:13 PM

Originally Posted by digiwano,March 23rd, 2005 @ 7:08pm

The zero-sum system is pretty cool, it's really a shame you didn't come up with that awesome of a system before the split.

Actually, this is essentially what was proposed (albiet not fleshed out) first, and it the reaction it recieved is what started the road to the split.

digiwano · 03/23/05, 9:22 PM

Originally Posted by Graham,March 23rd, 2005 @ 7:13pm

Actually, this is essentially what was proposed (albiet not fleshed out) first, and it the reaction it recieved is what started the road to the split.

Huh. I only ever remember reading/hearing about your second system.

Assassyn · 03/23/05, 9:51 PM

Originally Posted by digiwano,March 23rd, 2005 @ 7:22pm

Originally Posted by Graham,March 23rd, 2005 @ 7:13pm

Actually, this is essentially what was proposed (albiet not fleshed out) first, and it the reaction it recieved is what started the road to the split.

Huh. I only ever remember reading/hearing about your second system.

Then you must have missed it.

digiwano · 03/23/05, 11:48 PM

Originally Posted by Assassyn,March 23rd, 2005 @ 7:51pm

Then you must have missed it.

That's actually very likely, I was barely around when that part of the drama happened, and the time I did spend thinking about wow i spent in game playing.

I know that all of the complaining I saw was about the second system and not the first, though.

Graham · 03/23/05, 11:50 PM

Originally Posted by digiwano,March 23rd, 2005 @ 9:48pm

I know that all of the complaining I saw was about the second system and not the first, though.

Let's not rehash it. The second system was a compromise because the first was so ill-received.

digiwano · 03/24/05, 12:03 AM

Originally Posted by Graham,March 23rd, 2005 @ 9:50pm

Let's not rehash it.

No, I agree with that.

It's really too bad that there couldn't have been a better agreement for the points system, because I do think it could have been worked out well.

Kaubel · 03/24/05, 1:33 AM

Originally Posted by digiwano,March 23rd, 2005 @ 7:08pm

The zero-sum system is pretty cool, it's really a shame you didn't come up with that awesome of a system before the split.

Are you kidding? :P

The idea of any point system was met with gnashing of teeth and cursing of tongues. While the one we openly proposed was a compromise that still highly favored the casual player, the zero-sum JP system we now have in place does the opposite - it virtually insures that the people who play the most will have the most loot. This was something the average Goon was vehemently against.

digiwano · 03/24/05, 3:51 AM

Originally Posted by Kaubel,March 23rd, 2005 @ 11:33pm

people who play the most will have the most loot. This was something the average Goon was vehemently against.

It really doesn't matter at this point, and I'm certainly not trying to stir up that drama. My real point was that it's a damn shame we couldn't work out a better compromise that made both guilds happy.

In any case, Even without any points systems, the issue doesn't really come up in goon squad; I think i've seen someone complain about it once. Maybe that means we are better off without a points system, maybe not.

Kaubel · 03/24/05, 9:05 AM

Originally Posted by digiwano,March 24th, 2005 @ 1:51am

Originally Posted by Kaubel,March 23rd, 2005 @ 11:33pm

people who play the most will have the most loot. This was something the average Goon was vehemently against.

My real point was that it's a damn shame we couldn't work out a better compromise that made both guilds happy.

On hindsight, to be perfectly honest, I'm glad GS was so against the idea. Our current system right now is exactly what's needed, and any type of compromise wouldn't be good enough.

archangelwar · 03/27/05, 2:33 AM

Excellent system (I advocated something similar long before the split and was on the EJ side of things during this time). I was worried at first because last I heard was JPs were for rerolls and then I open the db and see people with 100 some odd points.

Needless to say, I was worried about the "face offs" between people rolling over 100 times against each other over an item.

Now if only GS would care to adopt a good system before my new computer comes....

Shabadu · 04/07/05, 3:59 PM

Originally Posted by Kaubel,March 24th, 2005 @ 12:33am

Originally Posted by digiwano,March 23rd, 2005 @ 7:08pm

The zero-sum system is pretty cool, it's really a shame you didn't come up with that awesome of a system before the split.

Are you kidding? :P

The idea of any point system was met with gnashing of teeth and cursing of tongues. While the one we openly proposed was a compromise that still highly favored the casual player, the zero-sum JP system we now have in place does the opposite - it virtually insures that the people who play the most will have the most loot. This was something the average Goon was vehemently against.

This even works well for the casual player. At some point the hardcore raiders will have bought all the loot they want and the less frequent player will get unwanted loot. This happens to our hunters and druids at an alarming rate.

Wubwub · 04/07/05, 5:49 PM

Well it only works for those who play the most if they get on the raids. :P Our big issue now is the raid size limit.

Ive missed the last three MC raids or so, I passed on the first ones but I just plain missed invites last nights. No biggie.. I havent missed a kaz or azuregos or onyxia in awhile.. Which is really what I want to be killing. (KAZ U GIEV STAFF DAMNIT!!!!!)

Elfan · 04/18/05, 7:22 PM

1) Is the point value you have assigned to items ever a point of contention? A player may prefer an item that has more of stat X to stat Y and thus thinks this item is only a minor upgrade for example.

2) How do you divide up the crafting materials (lava cores, core leather etc) that drop during a raid?

3) This is likely no longer an issue for you but how do you determine which hunters get the T-shot first? The one with the highest ranged weapon skill automatically getting it first is one possible method, /random 100 is another.

Thud · 04/18/05, 7:32 PM

Originally Posted by Elfan,April 18th, 2005 @ 4:22PM

1) Is the point value you have assigned to items ever a point of contention? A player may prefer an item that has more of stat X to stat Y and thus thinks this item is only a minor upgrade for example.

2) How do you divide up the crafting materials (lava cores, core leather etc) that drop during a raid?

3) This is likely no longer an issue for you but how do you determine which hunters get the T-shot first? The one with the highest ranged weapon skill automatically getting it first is one possible method, /random 100 is another.

1) Yes, if we find something isn't ever wanted at the current JP then we lower it.

2) Leather is 1JP and Cores are 4. Once Gurgthock hits exalted with the THorium Brotherhood then we will start recieving JP for the cores rather than him just using them to get exalted. Peopel are then charged JP for certain crafted items that contain those cores/leather. Gurgthock is essentially our guild bank right now.

3) /random among the hunters who can achieve the highest skill.

Graham · 04/18/05, 7:32 PM

Originally Posted by Elfan,April 18th, 2005 @ 5:22PM

1) Is the point value you have assigned to items ever a point of contention? A player may prefer an item that has more of stat X to stat Y and thus thinks this item is only a minor upgrade for example.

2) How do you divide up the crafting materials (lava cores, core leather etc) that drop during a raid?

3) This is likely no longer an issue for you but how do you determine which hunters get the T-shot first? The one with the highest ranged weapon skill automatically getting it first is one possible method, /random 100 is another.

1) We come to a consensus about items as soon as we see them drop anywhere. It's not that big a deal as almost all of them are decided way in advance. If no one who is there wants it for the stipulated price then it gets disenchanted if BoP or offered to others in the guild if BoE. (Edit) Gush is correct, when an item is never wanted because the dynamic has changed we lower the cost, again, by consensus here on our forums.

2) We don't. Everyone there gets a small amount of RaidJP for each that drop and they go into a guild bank. When someone wants something crafted that takes them, they spend the RaidJP (that those items cost) to make the crafted item.

3) I think it was just on highest bow skill. Now it's either junk loot or given to the new hunter who doesn't have it yet.

Elfan · 04/18/05, 11:59 PM

Thank you for the thoughor Thud and Graham.