Old JP system discussion thread - Page 3

♦ Praetorian · 05/26/05, 7:43 PM

Originally Posted by Cal,May 26th, 2005 @ 7:24PM

1) If someone gets tier 1 drood boots in March, and someone gets the exact same boots in May, it ends up costing them the same amount. This is true even if all the guild's druids attended every raid. So the last person in line just gets a bit screwed? Unlike the AH, prices will never come down here.

How is this even "getting screwed"? In fact, this is fair, if anything. Two people who have spent 400 points will have comparable gear regardless of when they bought it. If I have the same boots as you, why should it have cost me more or less than they cost you?

2) This is a bit related to 1). If druid A goes on 100 raids, and druid B goes on 99 raids (but misses the first raid ever), won't druid B be perpetually behind druid A in getting loot? B won't have a shot at anything until A has it or passes. Yes, A's attendance is admirable and should be rewarded, but in a strange, extreme case like this, one person can be perpetually behind another and just get hosed (we've had this happen in our old system; one rogue started a week or so after another, and was basically chasing him for two months --very frustrating).

Hmm, well I think you're misunderstanding our system. This may be a concern with an inflationary non-zero-sum system, where the people who have been raiding the longest will tend to always have dibs on drops. In our system, in your scenario, let's say Druid A has 100 points and Druid B has 90 points. An item drops that's worth 75 points. Druid A has dibs. He buys it, and yes, Druid B has no chance at it. But now Druid B is far ahead of A, and the next item that drops will go to B (if B wants it).

3) This was already pointed out, but what about how people value items? Some people lose their minds when they see anything purple. Others realize that DM loot is, in many cases, 90% the quality of MC loot. If someone thinks the loot isn't worth as many points as is listed, is their only option to bank their points and wait for BWL?

Well, we give people some amount of choice in terms of what to buy and what not to. We could just force people to take all upgrades if they're #1 in points for their class when the item drops, but that gives people no control at all over their character's development, and isn't particularly fun. If some people aren't thrilled with certain items and want to pass on them, that's fine, just so long as someone takes it at some point along the line. If everyone passes on an item that is an upgrade for people present, we force someone (typically the #1 in points for whom it's an upgrade) to buy the item. We raid to improve the equipment of the guild as a whole, and disenchanting loot that's an upgrade because all the individual players would like to hold out for a larger upgrade, is dumb.

If people don't like the loot in MC and want to wait for BWL to spend their points on better loot there, then we stop taking them to MC with us, and they'll never see the inside of BWL when it comes out. Points are meant to be spent, not hoarded. The only people who have large amounts of points are those who haven't seen loot for their class drop in quite a while.

Cal · 05/27/05, 2:24 AM

Well, I just meant that typically, things get cheaper over time. No one's going to pay $200 for a PS 2 now, and no one's going to pay 150g for Bracers of Valor. But I see your point, that different pieces for each class will keep dropping, and shuffle the rankings for each class.

For the second scenario, I meant that one player could be perpetually behind another one while both get geared up. From the previous example, between 2 druids with 100 and 99 points, the druid loot would theoretically go to druid A, then B, then A, then B. . . till both are fully geared. My point was that its possible that, b/c druid B missed a single raid at the very start, he would always and forever be second in line to druid A. Yeah, they'd both get geared up, but their total gear would either be "tied", or have A be one piece ahead.

Sorry about the crap. I'm just trying to settle on a system and find a way to sell it to my guild and allies (and defending any potential weaknesses in that system is key).

(I like the Sun Tzu quote)

Elfan · 05/27/05, 2:44 AM

Originally Posted by Cal,May 27th, 2005 @ 1:24AM

Well, I just meant that typically, things get cheaper over time.

Thats because in the real world there is inflation. The whole point of the system being zero sum is that points retain their value over time.

Steelfleece · 05/27/05, 3:57 AM

Originally Posted by Cal,May 27th, 2005 @ 12:24AM

Well, I just meant that typically, things get cheaper over time. No one's going to pay $200 for a PS 2 now, and no one's going to pay 150g for Bracers of Valor. But I see your point, that different pieces for each class will keep dropping, and shuffle the rankings for each class.

For the second scenario, I meant that one player could be perpetually behind another one while both get geared up. From the previous example, between 2 druids with 100 and 99 points, the druid loot would theoretically go to druid A, then B, then A, then B. . . till both are fully geared. My point was that its possible that, b/c druid B missed a single raid at the very start, he would always and forever be second in line to druid A. Yeah, they'd both get geared up, but their total gear would either be "tied", or have A be one piece ahead.

Sorry about the crap. I'm just trying to settle on a system and find a way to sell it to my guild and allies (and defending any potential weaknesses in that system is key).

(I like the Sun Tzu quote)

Only if they are both taking every piece of loot that drops, and both share the exact same priorities and both attend all the same raids. Typically, this is not the case.

Kaubel · 05/27/05, 8:15 AM

Cal, you're assuming a lot.

First of all, not all loot that drops is going to be the same price. If gloves drop that cost 100 points and Druid #1 loots them, Druid #2 is now in the lead. Now some bracers drop that are worth 50 pts. Druid #2 loots them and is still in the lead.

Second, it's not like a lot of time passes between item drops. If those two druids in your example are the only ones raiding, you're pretty much guaranteed a drop at least once per MC clear. Just last weekend when two groups of ours cleared the whole thing at once, we saw a minimum of 3 druid items per raid. Given that, there's really no way you can say one druid is "behind" another if there's only a minor difference between them in total points earned.

Besides, if both are tied in points and a piece drops, they're back to doing a /random for it. Now, according to you, the unlucky roller is always going to be behind the other and all because of crap luck. At least with a zero-sum point system, there's an objective reason for one player being in front of the other.

Chupa · 05/27/05, 9:42 AM

Originally Posted by Cal,May 27th, 2005 @ 12:24AM

For the second scenario, I meant that one player could be perpetually behind another one while both get geared up. From the previous example, between 2 druids with 100 and 99 points, the druid loot would theoretically go to druid A, then B, then A, then B. . . till both are fully geared. My point was that its possible that, b/c druid B missed a single raid at the very start, he would always and forever be second in line to druid A. Yeah, they'd both get geared up, but their total gear would either be "tied", or have A be one piece ahead.

You are also assuming all loot is priced the same. What if A takes a 150 point item, then B takes a 75 and a 50? Then B is still ahead in points and gets dibs on the next item as well.

And in practice, there is no 'behind'. Kaubel has been raiding a lot longer than I have and has a lot more points than I do, but he also has a nearly full Cenarion set. This is good for me because it means I can get almost any drop when I raid with him. This evens things up rather quickly.

Edit: Oh wow I completely missed the first part of Kaubel's post :)

Kaubel · 05/27/05, 12:11 PM

Cross-post

Epic Set Piece Values:

Molten Core Loot

Lucifron
Choker of Enlightenment -- 75 JP

Magmadar
Earthshaker -- 150 JP
Eshkandar's Right Claw -- 75
Striker's Mark -- 125 JP
Medallion of Steadfast Might -- 100 JP

Garr
Aurastone Hammer -- 125 JP
Drillborer Disk -- 125 JP
Gutgore Ripper -- 175 JP
Brutality Blade -- 150 JP

Shazzrah
Crimson Shocker -- 100 JP

Sulfuron
Shadowstrike -- 100 JP

Golemagg
Azuresong Mageblade -- 125 JP
Blastershot Launcher -- 125 JP
Staff of Dominance -- 150 JP

Majordomo Chest
Core Hound Tooth -- 125 JP
Finkle's Lava Dredger -- 175 JP
Ancient Petrified Leaf -- 125 JP
The Eye of Divinity -- 100 JP
Wild Growth Spaulders -- 50 JP
Fireproof Cloak -- 50 JP
Gloves of the Hypnotic Flame -- 125 JP
Wristguards of True Flight -- 50 JP
Sash of Whispered Secrets -- 100 JP
Core Forged Greaves -- 50 JP

Ragnaros
Band of Accuria -- 100 JP
Essence of the Pure Flame -- 50 JP
Choker of the Fire Lord -- 75 JP
Cloak of the Shrouded Mists -- 75 JP
Crown of Destruction -- 175 JP
Dragon's Blood Cape -- 75 JP
Malistar's Defender -- 150 JP
Shard of the Flame -- 50 JP
Perdition's Blade -- 225 JP
Bonereaver's Edge -- 225 JP
Spinal Reaper -- 225 JP
Eye of Sulfuras -- ?????

Shared Boss Loot Tables
Salamander Scale Pants -- 75 JP
Dark Iron Ring -- 100 JP
Deep Earth Spaulders -- 10 JP
Manastorm Leggings -- 100 JP
Sorcerous Dagger -- 50 JP
Flamewaker Leggings -- 50 JP
Quick Strike Ring -- 100 JP
Obsidian Edged Blade -- 175 JP
Talisman of Ephemeral Power -- 100 JP

Onyxia Loot
Deathbringer -- 175 JP
Ancient Cornerstone Grimoire -- 75 JP
Vis'kag the Bloodletter -- 175 JP
Sapphiron Drape -- 75 JP
Shard of the Scale -- 75 JP
Ring of Binding -- 25 JP
Eshkandar's Collar -- 75 JP
Mature Black Dragon Sinew -- 50 JP

Azuregos Loot
Typhoon -- 125 JP
Fang of the Mystics -- 175 JP
Leggings of Arcane Supremacy -- 75 JP
Unmelting Ice Girdle -- 75 JP
Puissant Cape -- 75 JP
Drape of Benediction -- 50 JP
Eshkandar's Left Claw -- 75 JP
Blue Dragon Sinew -- 25 JP

Kazzak Loot
Infernal Headcage -- 150 JP
Ring of Entropy -- 125 JP
Empyrean Demolisher -- 125 JP
Amberseal Keeper -- 125 JP
Blazefury Medallion -- 100 JP
Doomhide Gauntlets -- 125 JP
Eshkandar's Pelt -- 50 JP

Epic World Drops
Teebu's -- 150 JP
Blade of Hanna -- 100 JP
Alcor's Sunrazor -- 100 JP
Hand of Edward the Odd -- 100 JP
Lady Maye's Pendant -- 75 JP
Cloudkeeper Legplates -- 75 JP
Dwarven Hand Cannon -- 25 JP

Elfan · 05/27/05, 12:47 PM

Do your new point values simply reflect how they shuffled and added stats around between items in the set? Or does it reflect stuff like the lack of agi/crit on the warrior set somehow as well?

♦ Praetorian · 05/27/05, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by Elfan,May 27th, 2005 @ 12:47PM

Do your new point values simply reflect how they shuffled and added stats around between items in the set? Or does it reflect stuff like the lack of agi/crit on the warrior set somehow as well?

It reflects the set items as they will change post-patch. Only tier 1 so far -- we haven't rebalanced tier 2 since item data on those is incomplete at the moment and it's not like it's a particularly pressing issue since we can't get any of them besides head/legs.

As for the warrior set, I'm not sure what you mean. Most of us (and, in my opinion, all warriors with a clue) think that the new Might is a clear upgrade from the old Might. Whiners on the WoW boards have no idea what they're talking about.

diospadre · 05/27/05, 1:12 PM

What Cal didn't seem to realize is that when you spend points you lose points; items don't just go to the person with the highest earned JP.

Falcon24 · 05/27/05, 1:51 PM

Originally Posted by diospadre,May 27th, 2005 @ 11:12AM

What Cal didn't seem to realize is that when you spend points you lose points; items don't just go to the person with the highest earned JP.

Tell that to Nerd ^_^

05/27/05, 2:25 PM

Originally Posted by Praetorian,May 27th, 2005 @ 10:52AM

As for the warrior set, I'm not sure what you mean. Most of us (and, in my opinion, all warriors with a clue) think that the new Might is a clear upgrade from the old Might. Whiners on the WoW boards have no idea what they're talking about.

Basically, the new Might set is much better at PvE tanking than it was by a huge margin, but no longer gives as many advantages to a PvP geared warrior.

Battle.net retards favor PvP stats over tanking stats for some reason.

I guess everyone wants to be the guy that does 1500 damage crits rather than the one who takes all the hits.

From the looks of it, Blizzard is trying to get a system going where PvE will get you PvE gear and PvP will get you PvP gear, allowing you to progress in whichever direction you want to.

♦ Praetorian · 05/27/05, 2:33 PM

The thing is, people act like every piece of Might used to have +%crit and +Attack Power on it and they replaced it all with defense. You hear the PvE vs. PvP argument a lot, but it's not even all that true.

Old Might probably was better than New Might for 1v1 dueling. Same with Old vs. New Lawbringer. But even aside from PvE, group PvP is what all the PvP in this game is about. Whether it's in Alterac, CTF, raids on cities, etc., a warrior's role is more than putting out big crits. New Might gives them more HP, enough +defense to heavily nerf all incoming melee damage, and tons of Strength to keep those big Mortal Strikes coming.

I'm much happier with the warrior in my group holding an Alterac chokepoint wearing new Might than old Might. And Alliance players should be happier to be PvPing alongside paladins in New Lawbringer rather than Old.