There's no good reason for you not to be capped on %hit before you get Dark Storm
There is one for me - i have 18/31/2 build, and id rather get extra 2 hit from gear, than lose 1 pt in meditation.
Originally Posted by zeidrich
Women's breasts can be modeled as a cone and measured as V = (Db^2*h*.785)/3 and since breasts can be thought of as an amorphous fluid, you just have to worry about containing the volume of the breast.
There is a good reason to "not be spellhit capped before you get Dark Storm" and that reason is called fire mage. Crit > hit as a fire mage, if you factor in rolling ignites.
So, I take it Sancus is a frostie given that statement.
You don't need rolling ignites to make crit>hit for a fire mage, it's already receiving a better bonus to crit than frost on it's first crit. Not to mention Master of Elements, so crit increases your mana efficiency also. Giving us 6% hit for free basically in our talents as well as MoE is just screaming for mages to go after crit imo. And what is the Aura on Atiesh for mages? ....oh yeah, more crit:)
Arcane Shot appeared to get 60% benefit when I tested it, which still makes it better than Scorch. Arcane Explosion/Blast Wave/Cone of Cold/etc. is about it that gets less than 43%.
Yep. So there dies the fallacy about 6pc FF ever getting wasted. In fact, it will probably deliver considerably more than +40 dmg on average. 6pc FF is a necessity for the post-Naxx Mage. In fact, given just how good it is I think I'll pick up FF shoulders so that I can use it prior to killing Kel'thuzad and getting access to the ring.
To be honest I'm still trying to wrap my head around you concluding that the FF 6 piece bonus is worth more than +40 damage, passive. How exactly did you come up with that, seeing as it is a 20% proc rate for 200 damage and there are very few spammable abilities that gain greater than a 1.0 +damage coefficient.
Arcane Shot appeared to get 60% benefit when I tested it, which still makes it better than Scorch. Arcane Explosion/Blast Wave/Cone of Cold/etc. is about it that gets less than 43%.
Yep. So there dies the fallacy about 6pc FF ever getting wasted. In fact, it will probably deliver considerably more than +40 dmg on average. 6pc FF is a necessity for the post-Naxx Mage. In fact, given just how good it is I think I'll pick up FF shoulders so that I can use it prior to killing Kel'thuzad and getting access to the ring.
To be honest I'm still trying to wrap my head around you concluding that the FF 6 piece bonus is worth more than +40 damage, passive. How exactly did you come up with that, seeing as it is a 20% proc rate for 200 damage and there are very few spammable abilities that gain greater than a 1.0 +damage coefficient.
It's worth 40 damage if you are the only one who ever consumes the debuff. But if you are spamming scorch, then there's no way anything with less than 43% multiplier will ever consume the debuff (barring exceptions which can be disregarded). If you are spamming Scorch and no one else is hitting the mob, then every 15sec you cast 10 times. Average of two procs, for 86 extra damage each, or 172 damage over 15sec, or 11.47 DPS, which is what you would gain from a flat +40 damage on your gear.
Now, what if you proc it twice, but a warlock happens to eat both charges with shadow bolts? Those get the full bonus, so will do 200 damage each (discounting CoS, crit chance, etc., to simplify things), for an extra 400 damage that can be attributed to the scorch-spamming mage. Now, the scorch-spammer has contributed an extra 400/15=26.7 DPS over those 15 seconds, which places the value of the bonus in this case as +93 spell damage.
That's assuming you're spamming scorch. Realistically, you almost never spam scorch as a 17/31/3 mage because fireball does about 100 more dps. The only time you use scorch is in situations where you can't sustain fireball until you go out of combat. Then you include scorch in your casting rotation to let your mana last longer. Even then, at most I find myself casting 1 scorch for every 1 fireball on average. The majority of casting time, for me at least, is spent on fireball.
One other exception, actually, is when there's a 4 or 5 stacked ignite on the mob, you scorch to keep it up. Those situations aren't all that common though, even with our 5 fire mage raid.
There is one for me - i have 18/31/2 build, and id rather get extra 2 hit from gear, than lose 1 pt in meditation.
Sure, but that's a mathematically suboptimal build. 2% spellhit > 5% mana regen even on fights where you *do* run out of mana, and those are pretty rare even on Horde-side(I'm a Horde mage) unless you use Fireball way more than you should be.
Regardless, if you *insist* on doing this, it's much more efficient to get your spellhit% in other places rather than foregoing 6pc FF. Particularly, I'd probably get the Kel'thuzad neck for 34dmg 1%crit 1%hit, and take the wand from um Patchwerk I think that is +7sta, +7int, +12dmg, and 1%hit. Overall, you only lose 4dmg and 1% crit for that, and it should be clear by now that 6pc FF is much better than 4dmg and 1% crit no matter what you do.
That's assuming you're spamming scorch. Realistically, you almost never spam scorch as a 17/31/3 mage because fireball does about 100 more dps. The only time you use scorch is in situations where you can't sustain fireball until you go out of combat. Then you include scorch in your casting rotation to let your mana last longer. Even then, at most I find myself casting 1 scorch for every 1 fireball on average. The majority of casting time, for me at least, is spent on fireball.
Realistically, for a Horde mage, the vast majority of the time you use Scorch because Fireball spam cannot be sustained. Regardless - it doesn't matter - even on Fireball, the only people who *should* be using nukes on the target are going to be using ones that get just about as much benefit from 6pc FF as another Fireball gets, so if you use Scorch even 10-20% of the time, your benefit should still average more than 40dmg. 40dmg is basically the *least* you can get.
1 scorch per Fireball is still 33% of your casting time on Scorches, btw, and as an Alliance mage I'm sure you can see how that proportion would be much greater for a Horde Mage. Regardless, 33% is more than sufficient to get more than 40dmg out of the proc on average.
Also, as your gear gets better you will tend to use Scorch more, as the higher crit rates will mean that you can sustain 5-stack ignites for longer periods of time and as you noted, sustaining an ignite is more important than the dps increase from Fireball.
<Vontre> I removed the cooldown on evo
<sancus> and what happened?
<Vontre> DPS went down rofl
Sustaining an ignite is really only worth it if the ignite is of notable size. Example: 5 fire mages. If they all are spamming scorch, critting for ~1k, you'll have an ignite ticking for only 1k every 2s, or 500 dps. That's assuming they get a 5 stack ignite up and keep it up 100% of the time, which is highly unlikely given current gear. Meanwhile, having each mage switch from Fireball to Scorch is costing the raid 500 dps give or take by using a lower dps spell. When you consider the fact that fireball spam can roll its own ignites, just less often, it becomes quite clear fireball spam is a far superior method of dps. I'll leave it up to people much smarter than me, however, to figure how high the ignite has to be to justify switching from fireball to scorch.
Sustaining an ignite is really only worth it if the ignite is of notable size. Example: 5 fire mages. If they all are spamming scorch, critting for ~1k, you'll have an ignite ticking for only 1k every 2s, or 500 dps. That's assuming they get a 5 stack ignite up and keep it up 100% of the time, which is highly unlikely given current gear. Meanwhile, having each mage switch from Fireball to Scorch is costing the raid 500 dps give or take by using a lower dps spell. When you consider the fact that fireball spam can roll its own ignites, just less often, it becomes quite clear fireball spam is a far superior method of dps. I'll leave it up to people much smarter than me, however, to figure how high the ignite has to be to justify switching from fireball to scorch.
Right, but as I said, none of that matters. At *worst* you are still going to get 40dmg from FF 6pc, and 40dmg is simply mathematically superior to what you get from Dark Storm Gauntlets and Soul Harvester Bindings. There is no reasonable argument as far as I can see in favor of those pieces. Not even if you assume that you're using the talent build that loses 2% hit, and if you're using that build, the choice of Ring of Eternal Flame in place of C'thun ring makes no sense.
I still have yet to see anyone present any math which concludes that 45dmg(ff bindings do have more dmg than harvester) is weaker than 1% crit and 1%hit(even if the hit is effective, which it really shouldn't be), nevermind the gained int and spirit. The only argument revolved around the fact that the proc would be "wasted" getting you considerably less than 40dmg, but that can't really ever happen.
Saying 'this is my ideal set' doesn't really mean much of anything if you can't present a good *reason* why it's ideal. Can you?
<Vontre> I removed the cooldown on evo
<sancus> and what happened?
<Vontre> DPS went down rofl
Sustaining an ignite is really only worth it if the ignite is of notable size. Example: 5 fire mages. If they all are spamming scorch, critting for ~1k, you'll have an ignite ticking for only 1k every 2s, or 500 dps. That's assuming they get a 5 stack ignite up and keep it up 100% of the time, which is highly unlikely given current gear. Meanwhile, having each mage switch from Fireball to Scorch is costing the raid 500 dps give or take by using a lower dps spell. When you consider the fact that fireball spam can roll its own ignites, just less often, it becomes quite clear fireball spam is a far superior method of dps. I'll leave it up to people much smarter than me, however, to figure how high the ignite has to be to justify switching from fireball to scorch.
Right, but as I said, none of that matters. At *worst* you are still going to get 40dmg from FF 6pc, and 40dmg is simply mathematically superior to what you get from Dark Storm Gauntlets and Soul Harvester Bindings. There is no reasonable argument as far as I can see in favor of those pieces. Not even if you assume that you're using the talent build that loses 2% hit, and if you're using that build, the choice of Ring of Eternal Flame in place of C'thun ring makes no sense.
I still have yet to see anyone present any math which concludes that 45dmg(ff bindings do have more dmg than harvester) is weaker than 1% crit and 1%hit(even if the hit is effective, which it really shouldn't be), nevermind the gained int and spirit. The only argument revolved around the fact that the proc would be "wasted" getting you considerably less than 40dmg, but that can't really ever happen.
Saying 'this is my ideal set' doesn't really mean much of anything if you can't present a good *reason* why it's ideal. Can you?
The main thing you want to focus on when choosing if you are going FF 6pc or not is whether you are going to use fireball or scorch more often. If you fireball and you get 5 casts in 15 seconds, with an average of one proc. If that one proc gets consumed by a scorch from another mage, then it's 86 damage for 15 seconds, or 5.73 dps, or +17.2 dmg. That is the *worst* case senario with the proc, and for most mages they will be fireballing at least 2/3 of a normal fight.
The main thing you want to focus on when choosing if you are going FF 6pc or not is whether you are going to use fireball or scorch more often. If you fireball and you get 5 casts in 15 seconds, with an average of one proc. If that one proc gets consumed by a scorch from another mage, then it's 86 damage for 15 seconds, or 5.73 dps, or +17.2 dmg. That is the *worst* case senario with the proc, and for most mages they will be fireballing at least 2/3 of a normal fight.
its a non-issue if the scorching mage is using 6FF too, he will get 2 procs over 15 secs and at least one of those (statistically) is going to be eaten by your fireball (15 casts total, 10 scorch, 5 fireball, 3 procs, 2 for scorch and 1 for fireball)
so your net gain is 86 + 86 + 200 (fireball gets full bonus i believe) = 24,8 dps increase
if you were both fireballing you get 10 casts (total) in 15 secs, 2 procs, 400 dmg = 26,7 dps as gurg mentioned earlier
Originally Posted by Zyla
If you can undo the bra with your teeth, it leaves your hands free for the keyboard.
The main thing you want to focus on when choosing if you are going FF 6pc or not is whether you are going to use fireball or scorch more often. If you fireball and you get 5 casts in 15 seconds, with an average of one proc. If that one proc gets consumed by a scorch from another mage, then it's 86 damage for 15 seconds, or 5.73 dps, or +17.2 dmg. That is the *worst* case senario with the proc, and for most mages they will be fireballing at least 2/3 of a normal fight.
Just to make one point, I agree with this, but while that's the worst case *scenario*, on average I don't think its really possible for 6pc FF to give you less than +40 damage, because as often as that happens to you, your Scorch will proc it and someone else will use a Fireball or Shadow Bolt, getting a greater bonus, or someone else's Fireball will eat it. The case where you proc with chained Fireball and someone eats it with a Scorch doesn't seem worth considering.
So yes, that's the worst case scenario, but I dont think its ever possible for the average to dip below 40dmg unless you are doing something very weird and stupid(like one mage fireballing all the time with the bonus, while other mages WITHOUT the bonus scorch all the time.).
<Vontre> I removed the cooldown on evo
<sancus> and what happened?
<Vontre> DPS went down rofl
Sure, but that's a mathematically suboptimal build. 2% spellhit > 5% mana regen even on fights where you *do* run out of mana, and those are pretty rare even on Horde-side(I'm a Horde mage) unless you use Fireball way more than you should be.
That would be true if there was no cap on spellhit. When i reach 12% spellhit from gear, i loose nothing and gain 5% mana regen. Also i'm not sure if i understand fireball comment. Like i already said in "Sustained DPS" thread i can sustain chain-casting fireballs on Patchwerk with 3 major pots and mana regen consumables. Of 7 fights ive done in Naxx (full spider, noth, raz, patch and grob) i heavy use scorch only on Noth (because fireball on adds is overkill) and Anub (because of fight length). On all others i'm perfectly fine with fireball.
Regardless, if you *insist* on doing this, it's much more efficient to get your spellhit% in other places rather than foregoing 6pc FF. Particularly, I'd probably get the Kel'thuzad neck for 34dmg 1%crit 1%hit, and take the wand from um Patchwerk I think that is +7sta, +7int, +12dmg, and 1%hit. Overall, you only lose 4dmg and 1% crit for that, and it should be clear by now that 6pc FF is much better than 4dmg and 1% crit no matter what you do.
Yes, thats very good point, however getting optimal FF 6/9 is pretty long-term goal, in short-term its better to stay in non-set items.
Originally Posted by zeidrich
Women's breasts can be modeled as a cone and measured as V = (Db^2*h*.785)/3 and since breasts can be thought of as an amorphous fluid, you just have to worry about containing the volume of the breast.
Here's the difference, going from one to the other:
+17 sta
+38 int
+39 spi
+1% hit
+10 penetration
-4.37% crit
-9 damage
And if you're thinking about this purely from a "what will help me level to 70" perspective, I would say 38 int and 38 spirit will equal a lot less downtime while grinding mobs than 4% crit will, thus enabling you to level faster.
When I consider leveling to 70, it is <probably> true that I'll be fighting mobs of higher level than me, and even if that's not necessarily the case, I will <probably> seek them out, because I'm at the hit cap now, and also because I have 5/5 Enigma in reserve just itching to be used against something 3-4 levels above me. The 5/5 proc would own them, imo.
08/05/06, 5:05 AM
in EJBSG17
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