Here's a thought - do specials potentially operate under a hunter-like mechanic (1.2% per level difference) while white damage only suffers the .2% per level defense penalty? We already know specials have different mechanics (no glancing, for example), no reason the hit mechanic has to be identical.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
Here's a thought - do specials potentially operate under a hunter-like mechanic (1.2% per level difference) while white damage only suffers the .2% per level defense penalty? We already know specials have different mechanics (no glancing, for example), no reason the hit mechanic has to be identical.
Sounds plausible -> anyone have an instance of missing with +9% to hit?
Before you start to drift, and your soul begins to scream.
I just wanted to tell you, that you're listening to a dream.
The thing is that is seem to happen very rarely to very specific mobs.
For example my friend told me he missed 1 special on Bloodlord with +6% to hit.
Tell me you missed a backstab on some random trash mobs and yes we have a problem but if it's on vem, the clearly melee style mob of the 3 with probably higher then normal armor or on bloodlord, another melee mob and maybe they just have higher defense? It make total sense from a designed standpoint, you desing boss with custom resists, with custom hp, why not custom atk and defense, etc?
5 defense is 0.20%, to miss at 8% on a lvl 63 mobs would require more then 8%-5.6% = 2.4% more miss, or more then 60 more defense. It could make sense to slap 400 defense on some hard for melee bosses?
This is a simple option that make sense, the other options are:
1) existence of a always miss "roll", easy to disprove since it's easy to never ever miss on some trash mobs.
2) something "hunter" like of +1% on boss for either just specials or something.
Option 2 can't really be the case either since with 6% to hit on a mob that would (theorically) have 8.6% miss rate you would miss very often and everyone would notice and rare screenshots of fighting vem would not be needed.
The simplier option is most probably the right one, some mobs have higher defense, by up to 100 more then normal.
Wouldn't the boss if they had 5 higher defence be instantly noticable from a glancing blows standpoint? If a mob suddenly had 320 defence instead of 315 you think it would be very very big, considering how when levelling up I had issues hitting people 4 levels higher than me. I think the defence has a lot bigger issue than just chance to miss, if I understand the mechanic right.
Is it too much of a stretch to guess that each additional +hit over 99% just gives one additional place value of accuracy? That is to say, if you have a 5% miss chance by default and +7 to hit that you have 99.99% accuracy, or +8 hit for 99.999% accuracy? 1 in 100 swings is noticeable, 1 in 1000 is rare, 1 in 10,000 (+9) is so rare it's not even worth mentioning.
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Eh, my nostalgia goggles aren't as good as they used to be.
On a mob with 400 defense, your critcrate would also significantly suffer.
Aswell as the dodge rate, the block rate, the parry rate, the glancing blow rate...
So no Sir, this doesn't make any sense at all.
I would even assume a boss with 400 defense would be untankable, since so many tank styles would not land.
Here's a thought - do specials potentially operate under a hunter-like mechanic (1.2% per level difference) while white damage only suffers the .2% per level defense penalty? We already know specials have different mechanics (no glancing, for example), no reason the hit mechanic has to be identical.
I really like this idea, and it would go a -long- way towards unifying the physical damage models of both melee and ranged. All of hunters damage seems to be interpreted by Blizzard as being special attacks (notice how SCTD shows bow shots, even as a rogue, as yellow damage) while normal old melee white hits remain different.
We know they have different glancing blow mechanics. We know that they both miss more often. Thus it seems reasonable to assume that they act the same.
I'm not sure which version of BonusScanner he's using, but mine still counts Biznick's as 3 melee hit, when it hasn't actually worked that way for a while.
Biznick's gives +3% hit to everyone who should have it (warriors/rogues with the old one and hunters lacking +hit), so it'd be pretty stupid not to count it as +hit. It'd also be pretty stupid to have a new Biznick's on a weapon as a rogue, so that's probably not the case for that screenshot.
No, I do not have +3% hit scope on my ranged. By the time we went Molten Core, that recipe was already taken away from the loot tables (server is EU, not release but the 1st new servers after release). And when they took it back in, it was +3% hit to ranged only (don't know if the old version still counts as melee hit).
The killing order was Kri - Yauj - Vem (easiest order).
What is interesting in the screenshot, Vem parried one of my auto attacks and in the same second I missed the backstab.
Since mobs can only parry from the front and since backstabs only work from the back of the mob, it either was lag (235ms latency) or I was standing somewhere inbetween that grey area on the side between the front and back hitbox. Yet, attacking from the front normally does not increase the chance to miss, only to block and parry.
Here's a thought - do specials potentially operate under a hunter-like mechanic (1.2% per level difference) while white damage only suffers the .2% per level defense penalty? We already know specials have different mechanics (no glancing, for example), no reason the hit mechanic has to be identical.
So, for a rogue with 5% tohit and a 63 mob, that would leave a 3,6% chance to miss?
For a long time I was raiding with 7% tohit and certainly did not notice 1,6% misschance. Even in Molten Core, where I did not have much (any) +tohit gear, I didn't notice that many missed specials.
I don't know, maybe Blizzard is using floating point numbers where 3 is 2.999999999 etc. or they are even using a Pentium I for those type calculations (would also explain the great server performance ;)).
***edit
really like this idea, and it would go a -long- way towards unifying the physical damage models of both melee and ranged. All of hunters damage seems to be interpreted by Blizzard as being special attacks (notice how SCTD shows bow shots, even as a rogue, as yellow damage) while normal old melee white hits remain different.
Wasn't auto attack for hunters recently changed to white damage?
Something along similar lines that I haven't ever heard about is, what is the base resist rate of taunt vs lvl 63 mobs. I've always assumed it worked the same way as binary spells, as it isn't affected by +hit gear and it is able to be silenced by the same effects that silence spells. This would give it a base resist rate of 16%, reduced to 11% with the 4 piece dreadnaught bonus. This seems about right for me as I still get taunt resists quite often and have had up to 3 or 4 in a row a few times but I haven't been collecting any data on it unfortunately.
Frankly, I hope I'm completely wrong about this and the base resist rate is much lower because it seems to make the four horsemen completely impossible. We may be going about it completely the wrong way and guilds that have been able to put in more time may have it all worked out, but taunt resists are absolutely slaughtering us. 1 Taunt resist pretty much wipes us as our timetable for the swaps is so tight, the seconds lost combined with the time that 2 horsemen are on 1 tank, leaves us with basically an unrecoverable position. We can't even really use aoe taunt or mocking blow as they don't transfer threat and the mob will go back to the previous tank after the duration. Even if taunt had cooled down before the duration ends, it wouldn't matter as it seems that taunting a mob that is on you due to mocking blow doesn't transfer threat like it does when you taunt off someone else. Basically, given a 16% base chance and all tanks in dreadnaught, I'd need approximately 300 000 gold for repairs and 720 days of /played until we got an attempt where we didn't get a taunt resist.
Anyway, enough crying but I would be very interested to know if anyone has hard numbers for the base taunt resist rate.
Yeah on the matter of spell taunt resists I wondered if there was any items/armor in the game that actually had spell hit that would be useful for tanks on the 4 horsemen encounter. Because from what I've read of that (plus what sticks said above), resisted taunts is what messes up strategies the most. That trinket from ZG might work nicely if it didn't have a long cooldown (15 second use, 1:15 cooldown). The only other thing I can think of is the two piece Zanzil set from ZG (3% more hit, 10 sta being only useful tank stats), which is still pretty damn silly, but rings are probably least important of a tank's gear, especially if you have enough Dreadnought to make up the stats lost. I can't think though of any world buff effect that changes to hit for users.
Biznick's gives +3% hit to everyone who should have it (warriors/rogues with the old one and hunters lacking +hit), so it'd be pretty stupid not to count it as +hit. It'd also be pretty stupid to have a new Biznick's on a weapon as a rogue, so that's probably not the case for that screenshot.
There is no "new" and "old" Biznick's.
I have a scope from before the nerf, and a hunter friend has one crafted by himself post-nerf after he picked up the schematic himself from MC; both scopes show up identically.
The implementation of the scope was just changed internally when the schematic was readded to MC; the actual itemid of the scope never changed ie. Biznick only adds 3 ranged hit now whether you had it made pre or post-nerf.
What about lag, what if your client does a backstab on a mob, but before the backstab hits(is transferred to server), the mob has turned to face you, would that result in a miss?
Is there a connection between backstab(positional attacks) and misses? Does this result in a greater missrate for backstabs compared to sinister strikes?
Could the same happen if the mob moves out of range?
Anyways, this is kinda way outta my league, so just spamming some quick questions...
Biznick's gives +3% hit to everyone who should have it (warriors/rogues with the old one and hunters lacking +hit), so it'd be pretty stupid not to count it as +hit. It'd also be pretty stupid to have a new Biznick's on a weapon as a rogue, so that's probably not the case for that screenshot.
There is no "new" and "old" Biznick's.
I have a scope from before the nerf, and a hunter friend has one crafted by himself post-nerf after he picked up the schematic himself from MC; both scopes show up identically.
The implementation of the scope was just changed internally when the schematic was readded to MC; the actual itemid of the scope never changed ie. Biznick only adds 3 ranged hit now whether you had it made pre or post-nerf.
Ah, I was under the impression that the newly dropping recipes were different. I don't think anyone on my server had even killed a trash mob in MC when it was removed, so Iooooo don't know anyone who had it. Thanks for the clarification.
Here's a thought - do specials potentially operate under a hunter-like mechanic (1.2% per level difference) while white damage only suffers the .2% per level defense penalty? We already know specials have different mechanics (no glancing, for example), no reason the hit mechanic has to be identical.
This is exactly what I was asking if someone can test, I am quite sure they changed something in the 1.10 patch.
Here's a thought - do specials potentially operate under a hunter-like mechanic (1.2% per level difference) while white damage only suffers the .2% per level defense penalty? We already know specials have different mechanics (no glancing, for example), no reason the hit mechanic has to be identical.
This is exactly what I was asking if someone can test, I am quite sure they changed something in the 1.10 patch.
So the target amount of hit to test with would probably be... +7? If you miss, it's like hunters. If not, well, it's not?
The only time I see a "missed" special is if I have some -hit debuff on me, but I have a lot of +hit (15-16 is typical, including precision).
However, I have missed a mob in scarlet monestary (high 30s/low 40s?) with a white attack before while wearing my raid gear. I remember being really surprised. Should that be possible? Would it be -.2% miss per level for targets below me? I guess that would only make up 4% missrate for a mob 20 levels below me, so still missable by a few %.
OT: The most important thing I learned from that screenshot is that I need to make a "snub" button.
08/14/06, 3:53 PM
Similar Threads
