Comeplete summary of +hit caps - Page 4

Varg · 08/16/06, 9:15 AM

Noticed that you can block warriors' "Shoot Gun" in duels, but you cannot block hunters stuff even with shield block active.
I'm not sure if this is because there's completely different implementations in the engine, or it's because something silly as "partially blocked ranged attacks don't show as such in the combat log". (In my very limited testing the blocking warrior had enough block value to fully block a ranged attack from a warrior.)
This should be relativly easy to actually check tho.

Brissa · 09/21/06, 5:52 PM

I just got a miss versus C'thun using a 2Hander with +7% hit (with a special to boot) which according to this forum isnt supposed to be possible.
http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/8300/7hitmisssc2.jpg

Abaxial · 09/21/06, 6:03 PM

you can never reach 100% hit, nor can you reach 100% crit. once you do end up covering the hit penalty, it just becomes a very small probability to occur.

Brissa · 09/21/06, 6:05 PM

I thought that only applied to spells...
If not never mind me.

• frmorrison · 09/21/06, 6:07 PM

Well, there was a thread (something like "combat mechanics continued") that someone attacked a level 63 with one weapon and had something like a 8.3% missrate using no +hit gear, so what I think that means is specials have the higher missrate while white attacks still have the 5.6% missrate.

HordakIC · 09/21/06, 6:13 PM

What I've found through lots of observation and some testing is that +hit dimishes exponentially. My testing using recap (I don't know what version you guys are using, but mine ONLY records misses as misses) has reinforced the idea that white attacks only get 90% effectiveness out of each +hit, and yellow get the full effect. This means that for white attacks your actual +hit is:

SUM(i|1:n) 0.9^i

Just give that a try using different amounts of hit gear and different weapon set ups. That's what I did and it held true up through 12% to hit.

Antiarc · 09/21/06, 6:17 PM

One explaination might be the way the code works. Say the "miss" range for a 5% miss on a d10000 is 0-500. Depending on how the code is written, a zero could be an automatic miss, regardless of your +hit, and so you'd have at least a 1:10000, or 0.01% chance of missing on any given attack regardless of your stats. The exact miss % would be different depending on the granularity of the die roll, but we know anecdotally that the miss rate with good gear is extremly low, if it's there at all. The fact that most well-geared rogues don't experience misses just tells us that the miss rate is extremely small. We have evidence for misses that shouldn't be possible with our understanding of the hit system, so we know that it isn't as simple as "More than X% guarantees no misses".

Some interesting tests would be to find a mob as close to even-levelled as possible and test 1000 hits on them with 1, 2, 3...10% +hit, and see what kind of results come up. I would expect that if it were consistent with the above theory, you'd have an even distribution up till (5 + 0.2LevelDelta)% hit, at which point you'd only see misses extraordinarily infrequently.

Another explaination might be the simultanious miss and parry in the screenshot. Backstabs are positional, and it's possible that the client let a backstab go through, but the server said "Uh, you're attacking from the front arc. Automatic miss." as a means of preventing people from backstabbing from any direction via packet mangling or what have you. A missed Sinister Strike would be more damning.

Thorb · 09/21/06, 6:23 PM

Some people have put doubts in my mind on the miss rate for sure. The first game mechanic thread I read here clearly stated that it was 5.6% versus 63 and 24.6% for DW. Most "guides" tend to use those formulas too. I feel someone need to do some serious testing and debunk this once and for all. It does seem to me that 8.6% is not possible on level 63 according to what I see in game. It could be a perception problem and I could be wrong.

It also mean this would only affect specials and not white attacks kinda like how range attack is all "special" yellow damage? If it was also the case on white attacks where is the 27.6% penalty on 63s for DW then?

Emeraude · 09/21/06, 6:33 PM

If there was a miss cap you would see it at all levels, similar to how a 60 mage can fail to polymorth a level 1-5 critter.

Brissa · 09/21/06, 6:50 PM

Originally Posted by Antiarc

Another explaination might be the simultanious miss and parry in the screenshot. Backstabs are positional, and it's possible that the client let a backstab go through, but the server said "Uh, you're attacking from the front arc. Automatic miss." as a means of preventing people from backstabbing from any direction via packet mangling or what have you. A missed Sinister Strike would be more damning.

My miss was a bloodthirst

topojijo · 09/21/06, 7:49 PM

I can say it is possible to miss a Tranq with 9% to hit as I have done it. Someone on these boards had mentioned that Tranq opperates a bit different than regular shots.

Kalman · 09/21/06, 7:56 PM

Originally Posted by HordakIC

What I've found through lots of observation and some testing is that +hit dimishes exponentially. My testing using recap (I don't know what version you guys are using, but mine ONLY records misses as misses) has reinforced the idea that white attacks only get 90% effectiveness out of each +hit, and yellow get the full effect. This means that for white attacks your actual +hit is:

SUM(i|1:n) 0.9^i

Just give that a try using different amounts of hit gear and different weapon set ups. That's what I did and it held true up through 12% to hit.

It's totally incorrect. It estimates 7.15% benefit for 15% +hit, when I know 15% +hit gives me 15% +hit. From testing.

There is no hard cap. There is no "you must miss". People putting those ideas forward are, quite simply, misguided.

Hunter that missed at 9%: what fight was it on? Are you certain you hadn't removed a piece of +hit in order to wear, e.g, resist gear?

topojijo · 09/21/06, 7:58 PM

Absolutely certain I had 9% to hit because I had gotten my percent I needed from the Drake Fang Talismon. It was on Chromaggus.

Zurai · 09/21/06, 8:22 PM

I have 9% hit (2 ZG enchants, drake fang, onyxia tooth, full Dragonstalker, exalted brood ring, nef head ring) and I still miss occasionally with both autoshots and aimed shots. It's very very very rare - I go weeks between misses in most cases - but it does happen, and not just against level 63 bosses either. Last month I missed an autoshot against a level 59 twilight cultist.

There is no such thing as a 100% chance to hit with anything.

Grock · 09/21/06, 8:56 PM

The picture below is for using gear with +9 hit for almost every swing. The one miss listed was a normal swing (if I remember correctly) on Heigan when I had +8 hit, I was wearing minor speed boots. I'll try and wear +8 hit for Naxx next clear and see what happens. After running with +9 hit for several months seeing the one "miss" on Heigan was very noticeable.

Edit - I forgot to screenshot it, but I eventually hit 6500 swings with only the one miss before I put on tank gear and my +tohit dropped below +6.

red · 09/21/06, 11:32 PM

I really thought the 5.6% myth had finally been put to bed. Anybody who claims it's impossible to miss with 6% to hit is obviously mistaken. I also don't know where the idea of "it's impossible to eliminate misses entirely" came from. It seems to be completely made up.

http://forums.elitistjerks.com/viewtopic.php?id=8432

Zurai · 09/22/06, 12:20 AM

How do you explain missing an autoshot against a level 59 nonelite mob with 9% to hit then? I've missed the air elementals in northern silithus farming essences of air too, and those are even lower level. For ranged at least, it is impossible to completely eliminate miss chance. I use my standard raid gear for both mob types -- there's absolutely no reason to change since my raid and solo PvE needs are the same. I find it very hard to believe that both methods of physical combat would work that differently in that respect.

Grock · 09/22/06, 12:38 AM

Originally Posted by Zurai

I find it very hard to believe that both methods of physical combat would work that differently in that respect.

About 6500 swings with +9 tohit and 0 misses, somewhere in the neighborhood of 150 swings and 1 miss with +8 tohit.

If I remember to do it (which would be impressive :P ) I'll vary my +tohit against bosses during the next few Naxx runs and see what happens.

Zurai · 09/22/06, 1:01 AM

6500 isn't that big a sample size if the miss rate is 1/1000 or 1/10000. Which is what I suspect the cap is - there's one entry left on the results table for misses that can't be pushed off. No one knows how many entries the table has, but it has to have at least 1,000 or they wouldn't be able to do 0.1% increments. I suspect it's bigger than that; no reason for it not to be.

Cluey · 09/22/06, 5:21 AM

Originally Posted by Emeraude

If there was a miss cap you would see it at all levels, similar to how a 60 mage can fail to polymorth a level 1-5 critter.

Spells and melee mechanics are different.

Originally Posted by Zurai

How do you explain missing an autoshot against a level 59 nonelite mob with 9% to hit then? I've missed the air elementals in northern silithus farming essences of air too, and those are even lower level. For ranged at least, it is impossible to completely eliminate miss chance. I use my standard raid gear for both mob types -- there's absolutely no reason to change since my raid and solo PvE needs are the same. I find it very hard to believe that both methods of physical combat would work that differently in that respect.

You have presented only anacdotal evidence that it happened, got a screenshot for us?

Tranq Shot seems to have an extra element to it where the shot can land but it doesn't work, for the people who this has happened to did you manage to log it or is it just getting picked up by a combat mod as a miss?

Originally Posted by Brissa

I just got a miss versus C'thun using a 2Hander with +7% hit (with a special to boot) which according to this forum isnt supposed to be possible.
http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/8300/7hitmisssc2.jpg

Thanks for that, it would be nice for someone with the gear and oportunity to test it properly, I did a lot of testing as a druid and the mechanics changed in the 1.10 patch.
Before 1.10 I went weeks with no misses at 6% to hit, after 1.10 I was getting occasional misses with 8% in MC.

Emeraude · 09/22/06, 5:26 AM

Originally Posted by Cluey

Originally Posted by Emeraude

If there was a miss cap you would see it at all levels, similar to how a 60 mage can fail to polymorth a level 1-5 critter.

Spells and melee mechanics are different.

People site the spell cap as a reason there's a melee hit cap. Only reason I mentioned it.

I don't personally believe there's a hit cap, 1 miss in 6500 swings makes me wonder where and when that miss happened and against what mob heh.

Err n/m re-read the post where he said the 1 miss was with +8% hit, that would do it.

I have yet to see a miss with +9 hit, and I stand by the miss rate increasing exponentially with mob level.

5% 60
6.2% 61
7.4% 62
8.6% 63

Cluey · 09/22/06, 5:49 AM

Originally Posted by Emeraude

Originally Posted by Cluey

Originally Posted by Emeraude

If there was a miss cap you would see it at all levels, similar to how a 60 mage can fail to polymorth a level 1-5 critter.

Spells and melee mechanics are different.

People site the spell cap as a reason there's a melee hit cap. Only reason I mentioned it.

I don't personally believe there's a hit cap, 1 miss in 6500 swings makes me wonder where and when that miss happened and against what mob heh.

Err n/m re-read the post where he said the 1 miss was with +8% hit, that would do it.

I have yet to see a miss with +9 hit, and I stand by the miss rate increasing exponentially with mob level.

5% 60
6.2% 61
7.4% 62
8.6% 63

Oh, ok I see what you meant now :)

I agree with your little table too, thats what it was looking like for a druid after my tests and I can't really see them having a completely different combat mechanic for different classes for the same type of damage (melee).

I am interested in seeing someone with the gear and opportunity test it though, I don't think regular melee damage will be any different from special melee attacks. Again it wasn't for a druid and changing how hitting a mob works for different classes just sounds like a lot more work.

burghy · 09/22/06, 7:00 AM

http://ctprofiles.net/210942

9/11 23:06:53.359 Shinja's Bloodthirst missed Loatheb.
9/11 23:07:15.890 Shinja's Heroic Strike missed Loatheb.
9/11 23:19:53.953 Shinja's Heroic Strike missed Loatheb.

I suspect he used Conq instead of Lionheart, so 9% hit.

Can't find special misses in fights I know for sure lh helm was used, so 11% hit.

Emeraude · 09/22/06, 7:36 AM

I wonder if the mechanics are different for people who duel wield, ranged, cat DPS, etc.

Granted you're not seein the same miss rate on specials as you see on your white hits, but there's something up with that.

With +9 hit on a 2-hander I don't see a miss, put on +9 for a 63 boss, put on the 2-hander, and reset the combat stats to record all the attacks, 0 misses.

The fact that that Warrior missed not only once but 3 times in the span of 15 seconds raises an eyebrow. I'd love to take more time to record data on offensive combat stats but there's just no mod out there that records it like I'd want to see.

Satrina had the best mod ever for recording defensive combat. http://www.wowinterface.com/download...fo.php?id=4163

Unfortunately he quit the game 3 days ago :(

Any chances of seeing an offensive combat mod probley died with that.
And one day Combat Monitor might stop functioning as well, which would make me cry.

Zurai · 09/22/06, 7:43 AM

Originally Posted by Cluey

You have presented only anacdotal evidence that it happened, got a screenshot for us?

No, I don't have a screenshot. Even if I did, you could just say I didn't have 9% hit.

You can either choose to believe me, or choose to call me a liar.

People are coming in here and saying 1 miss out of 6500 is some sort of statistical anomaly without even trying to think things through because it upsets their worldview somehow. The explanation is simple and elegant: there is always, at all points, a miss chance equal to one single solitary entry on the to-hit table. It's WoW's equavalent of rolling a 1 in combat in D&D - a gauranteed miss no matter the comparative skill level. If WoW's hit table is 10,000 entries, 1 entry being reserved for a mmiss explains a 1:6500 miss:hit ratio perfectly. It's an uncommon enough event not to alter any balance anywhere, but it's a chance for them to provide a "one in a million" type of occurance (think shooting a torpedo into a 2' diameter space station exhaust port).

I don't see why people are so convinced this doesn't happen. Multiple people have provided screenshots and firsthand accounts in this thread, and still people refuse to believe.