Yeah since my guild got to killing Chromaggus back in Dec 05 (and through the subsequent 2 mergers) Ive seen 1 AQR that went to a rogue from the guild we merged into (and in the next 2 weeks he got Iblis) and a few Claws, thats all folks. 1 CTS dropped and I missed logging in for the attempt by 5 mins and 1 Misplaced the opening night of Naxx when I couldnt get online and missed getting into the raid.

So getting that magic 2.8 speed or slower weapon plus the added atk power from AQR would make my DPS shine a bit more eh! What about with Misplaced (since it has no stats also, just a fun little proc and a nice Top End for crits). Im already at like 1150 unbuffed atk power (will be more once I can get back into ZG a time or 2 and get my Legs enchanted)

Also I tend to like Evis more than rupture lately since my guild is always heavy on rogues (so debuffs get knocked off all the time) and with the new scalling I can get 2 CB Evis in, usually 3 for crits of 2300-2600 average plus the normal Evis that usually hit for over 1k now (This is just with 3/3 imp evis and 5/5 DD, no new rank yet)

My problem is I was only around 520dps or so on Patchwerk yesterday and it was a flawless run (0 Deaths, was able to get in and do my thing without missing a beat). I know some of this is cause my MH sucks but it just seems that Hemo is kinda lacking in the sustained fights. Burst DPS with CB and my 5/5 DD bonus keeps me up there though without a problem on trash

This may be a silly question, but does Deadliness recalculate with non-solo buffs are added? Like a 200AP battleshout becomes a 220AP buff for a rogue with Deadliness? I haven't had more than 13 points in Subtlety since they initially put in the honor system and the TM zerg began.

I was wondering the same thing.

Deadliness is a new talent, that was just added in the Rogue patch. I know that it works with Crusader (so you get 110 AP), so I would assume it works with Battle Shout.

I'm doing ~720 DPS on patchwerk with full raid buffs (nothing stupid like leader of the pack), mongoose, giants and firewater. I just have a hard time believing I could get around 680 dps with a hemo build. :/

But you should be able to do exactly that: around 680 DPS.

You lose significant white damage, but pick up yellow damage (about 40-50 DPS over combat swords, even factoring in BF/AR).

Actually, MSA slightly favors combat, because the weapon damage contribution is scaled up by 6% for combat while hemo just gets 100% weapon damage (the AP advantage for hemo is equal between the two, obviously). OTOH, you lose sword spec procs to use a mace, so, /shrug.

"oh the humanity" was factored in. I might be a little off, come to think of it, since I don't model sword spec DPS at all, nor poison DPS increase due to Precision, but right now the model is pretty complete for autoattack and energy-related damage. Having one hemo rogue in a raid is no longer a disadvantage, especially since their DPS on encounters favoring yellow damage (like, say, Emps?) is quite favorable, as long as they spec properly (21/0/30 vs. 11/10/30 seems about a wash in practice, but 24/3/24 isn't acceptable, Deadliness is a larger boost than people think), use good rotations, and are geared appropriately (high AP, 2.8 or 2.9 MH).

One more question, how does Kiss of the Spider stack up to Hand of Justice or Rune of the Dawn?

Probably one of the best if not best Rogue trinkets available right now is how it stacks up. Someone else can probably post the math but its especially nice if you have BF/AR and SnD to pair it with. Still very nice with just SnD and KotS

with both AR and vanish on the same cooldown, how can you be worried about threat? :)

I love AR personally because I like to stack it with my other cooldowns, and that multiplicative power to me really is the best part about it. AR + BF on two mobs near one another means you're doing double AR damage, or using any number of active trinkets at the same with as AR and BF means you're doing gobs more damage, esp. compared to using them alone.

Today with pretty crappy buffs (motw, fort, trueshot) I did an ambush crit for 2575 with deaths sting and 1102 base AP during an AR, using badge of the swarmguard. Pretty much awesome, and honestly given a decent base crit rate ambush WILL average out to more damage than BS, though it will be close.

So.. if deadliness increases AP from buffs by 10% also, would it increase the +AP from WF hits by 10%? If you've ever had your character profile open when WF went off, your atk power jumps that amount for a second or so.

as good a place as any for a self-serving bump, esp since most rogues here probably know wtf they're talking about and would submit useful feedback. I've edited discodice to have more umpf for raiding. please see the thread below for info on the beta build. I'd love feedback.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...14682687&sid=1

BTW, for those interested, and to be semi-on-topic, my first build in 1.12 was combat maces with servo/harbinger (numbers i ran suggested that it was better than servo/sand-polished). On patchwerk I did 570 dps with 1 crit and 1 insta poisons, with mongoose for 80% of the fight (the rest of my gear wasn't as good as my weapons). I had TSA but no battleshout.

in 1.12, going back to combat daggers 15/31/5, using Harbinger mainhand, Pugio offhand, with no poisons, no mongoose, no crit stones, but with both regular 232 battleshout and TSA, I did 640 dps. So, in short:

gain 157 AP (BS gain vs mongoose loss), lose 3% crit, lose insta poison, lose 2.5 dps offhand, gain weapon expertise and combat daggers = 70 dps increase.

I still consider Hemo to be a non raiding build, to be honest. Even if you can offset your personal loss of dps by contributing the hemo debuff, you still take at least one debuff slot which might be used better otherwise. If your hemo knocks of the ignite of your fire mages for example, the raid dps will suffer. There is no advantage having a hemo rogue except for some pretty unique fights (Twin Emps for example) compared to having a combat rogue.

Oh and thanks for the great addon, disco :)

By 'Twin Emps' you mean: 'Almost every fight and trash in AQ40' right?

Fankriss has multiple switches to adds where you can leave a Rupture on. Skeram is bursty, and again, little exposure time. Sartura is all in-out and CPs for stuns. Twin Emps, as discussed. C'thun...

In Naxx (from what I understand), yes, Combat Daggers is king. In AQ40, Hemo and other burst builds like SF do just fine. And since AQ40 is the progression instance for a huge number of guilds, you can't discount Hemo so out of hand. Especially without seeing the maths- with the right gear it's viable EVEN on Patchwerk, for one rogue, at least. Saying "*I* don't consider it a raiding build" is fine. That doesn't mean you're right. Akin to the Innervate change, I have no doubt that Blizzard game Subtlety rogues deadliness precisely to allow off-specs more raid viability, so it's not THAT suprising that that's what it did.

Deadiness should give that WF hit an additional 10% AP (Since it does for other AP buffs), for that one extra hit.

Neither Skeram nor Fankriss particularly favor Hemo over other builds (actually, Fankriss is actively non-favorable, since Fankriss' debuffed armor is so low, Eviscerate wins out over Rupture even for hemo builds).

And when I said 40-50 DPS loss, that's against a combat swords build - against a combat daggers build, it's in the 80-100 range.

Hmm, two different threads going along here now.

Kalman, just to make clear: I know VERY few fights, if any, actively favour Hemo. My response was to the quoted post about Hemo being 'not a real raiding spec, and is only up there on Twin Emps'. This is simply not true.

Firstly, I just consider that on ANY fight where you aren't sustained DPSing one target (i.e. bringing the extra white damage/SnD to bear most of the time) to be eating away at Combat Daggers' superiority. It may still be best, but usually by a much slimmer margin. It depends how much the rogues are paying attention to their cycles and so on, of course.

How is Fankriss non-favourable? You're doing far more non-SnD finishers with non-Combat Daggers builds, whether they're eviscerates or ruptures... He burns down fast enough that I am pretty much switching to the yellow worm ads every 10 CPs at most.

Sure, there's no advantage on Sartura for Hemo, I wasn't claiming that. More that Combat Daggers(/Swords) isn't really superior. I was arguing with the poster who said "I still think Combat is the only real raid build", not saying "Hemo is better on every AQ40 fight". It's not better. But it's up there and completely viable.

This is where the Innervate analogy came in. Pre-1.12, Hemo dps WAS so bad that you really wouldn't want numerous rogues specced into it on your raids. The same way you wouldn't want more than 1-2 druids, at most, non-Innervate specced. Incidentally, as a guild, we often had 0-2 innervates on 40 man raids, as we've never enforced specs on any class. Post-1.12, *certainly* in AQ40, having numerous Hemo rogues isn't a big problem, providing their gear is up to it.

And yes, I didn't mention Huhu on purpose. The burst damage needed at the end certainly favours BF+AR specs (+SnD, Troll Beserking and Tea last time I did it as Combat Swords ;))

Don't get me wrong, I understand the strengthes of a hemo build, having played it for 3-4 month last winter. I can see why it produces more dps than it did before and is almost competitible to combat builds when adding the damage of the debuff to the dps done by the hemo user himself.
Yet the argument about the debuff limit still stands. For this reason i mentioned the TE fight, because there, these limits are off and hit 'n run fights do favor this spec as well, so to speak, perfect conditions for hemo and less perfect ones for other specs.

This seems as good a place as any to post this, since I know a lot of people are converting to Combat Daggers after 1.12. A guildmate of mine whipped up this nifty Backstab macro because he missed his old SS/Riposte/autoattack macro. I'm not daggers myself, but I tested it and it seemed to work fine.