Stunning and silencing find a lot more use in Naxx than they have in any other raid zone. It isn't much, and it isn't every fight, but there's definitely something to be said for rogue "utility" on nearly any boss that involves adds in some form.
What about the new snare break from Improved Sprint? Does that have any applications?
And while we're at it:
Pre-1.12 most of the combat sword builds I saw had 3 points in Improved Gouge. Now those points seem to be going in Lightning Reflexes. Are people moving the point to compensate for the 71 lost agility (and subsequent mitigation) going from tier 2 to tier 3?
How valuable is Ruthlessness for combat swords in 1.12? If I was thinking about Imp Kick / Imp Sprint would this be a good place to pull points from? If not, where?
Has the (untalented) cooldown for Evasion been changed for 1.12?
Pre-1.12 most of the combat sword builds I saw had 3 points in Improved Gouge. Now those points seem to be going in Lightning Reflexes.
How valuable is Ruthlessness for combat swords in 1.12? If I was thinking about Imp Kick / Imp Sprint would this be a good place to pull points from? If not, where?
Has the (untalented) cooldown for Evasion been changed for 1.12?
Imp gouge is mostly a PvP talent, so a lot of Rogues must rather want to take less damage in raiding/grinding.
Ruthlessness is a decent Sword talent, but if you really want other talents, I would take them from imp Evis before Ruthlessness.
Evasion without the combat talent/DD bonus is unchanged.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Why ruthlessness over murder? It seems like a 40% chance to give you a CP is less useful than a flat 2% damage increase to almost everything relevant. Although I guess for Naxx guilds murder becomes a lot less useful.
Why ruthlessness over murder? It seems like a 40% chance to give you a CP is less useful than a flat 2% damage increase to almost everything relevant. Although I guess for Naxx guilds murder becomes a lot less useful.
It's not almost everything relevant, though. Most guilds are either pushing Naxx or AQ. Mine is personally working on AQ. Mobs in AQ don't even have a type. So it'd be helping mostly in BWL, which we already have on farm status, and I don't really want to spec to help farm status instances.
Before you start to drift, and your soul begins to scream.
I just wanted to tell you, that you're listening to a dream.
Like he implied, if you are doing lots of MC/BWL/PvP, Murder is a great talent, and it should be better than Ruthlessness.
If you are not, then it is a weaker talent, it really depends on what you are up to in WoW.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Spending 3 DKP on a claw of the black drake is also a dagger farming talent.
Agreed - a combat dagger rogue with raid gear and some spare SS epic that nobody wanted is a brutally awesome farmer. I farmed with a Vis'kag when I was combat dagger build, and no, I wasn't as good as I would have been if I was combat swords, but I still farmed many times faster than any of the "professional" farmers with their Phantom Blades, and switched to my daggers to gank any of them I saw that were from the other faction.
Combat daggers bad for farming? A rogue with zero talent points spent is still great for farming if he has some epics.
Spending 3 DKP on a claw of the black drake is also a dagger farming talent.
That implies that you are getting weapon drops.
For us, SS weapons have stopped dropping when every SS rogue received one.
Waiting since 3 months for a claw or CTS to actually drop again.
I just picked up a Servo for farming/Thaddius/Gothik/etc and I'm liking it, probably gonna take 2/3 Aggression in my 15/31/5 after patch hits for it. I'd either take 2 parry or 2 imp sprint otherwise, so seems worth it. If only +Maces wasn't in mace spec, I'd be a monster switch hitter.
I'm really thinking that imp sprint will actually be a pretty effective PvE talent after the patch... Initially I was thinking of taking endurance for PvP, but seeing fights where you possibly can get snared/rooted I think that being able to break that without vanish will be a fairly nice bonus. Case in point would be the adds on Anubrekhan, killing them right after a web goes off would be easily broken twice with imp sprint, but only once without.
As for farming, I find I do fine just spamming SS with my dagger, I really think (esp after the patch) the extra crit on mainhand attacks and SS, as well as the bonus poison damage will make up for the lost SS swing damage. Maybe that's just me though.
Doesn't hurt that my SS weapon is an Empyrean Demolisher, 48 dps ftw!!111
I'm really thinking that imp sprint will actually be a pretty effective PvE talent after the patch... Initially I was thinking of taking endurance for PvP, but seeing fights where you possibly can get snared/rooted I think that being able to break that without vanish will be a fairly nice bonus. Case in point would be the adds on Anubrekhan, killing them right after a web goes off would be easily broken twice with imp sprint, but only once without.
I agree that it would help on anub, but so would screaming in the roguechannel when they ks at 80%, and also agreeing with the warriors to use their stun at 10% to safe it.
Overall i cant justify 2 pts in imp sprint with naxx in mind. Id have to go with dodge, imp kick, riposte first.
When soberly ranking these talents for pve value id have to go: dodge, imp kick, riposte (best-->worst). Having said that, the pvp usability and general funfactor rank would be the complete oposite.
While riposte is fun as hell in pvp, its raid dps contribution(especially when it matters: on bosses) is more or like 0.
Imp kick our lovely nondiminished 2sec "caster-stun" is also awesome in pvp, in pve however its more of a thrash/add toy, with ca 0 benefit on bosses.
Afaik, plagued guardians at noth cannot be silenced, havent tried on gothik's adds tho. Imp kick in naxx is mostly for the shadows before maexxna.
I was thinking between 2 extra in parry or endurance or imp SS for PvE comabt daggers (15/31/5). Not sure at this point. There are boses I'd love to sneak two potential evasions in (say Rasuvius is particulalry laggy) or for cleave heavy trash. There really isnt an 'ideal' place to throw the 2 pt into, unless I've missed something.
Farewell, remorse: all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good.
~Paradise Lost (bk. IX, l. 171)
yea, as combat talent tier3 contains endurance, riposte and imp sprint, theres are 2 talent points that must go to talents that are nearly useless for raiding.(lets not start the dodge/parry-owns-flames again, we are dpsers not tanks) At least for swords.
going 19.32.0 swords, its sad to have to use 5 in parry without riposte.
taking riposte id have to sacrifice a point in ruthlessness, and that would be bad for pve.
However the rogue reviews has been positive overall, and our dps should increase which is fine and dandy. Wouldnt mind a dps-talent in combat tier3 talents like serrated blades or dirty deeds tho:) then they could put the OMG DODGE OWNZ talent for the setup people in sub!
edit: regarding daggerrogues putting 2 fillers in ss, its certainly a viable option. swords are better than daggers on certain fights, for example cthun, and on multiple bosses in naxx.
With swords in 1.12 the dps difference between SnD and evisc doesn't seem enough anymore to offset eviscerate's instant/burst qualities, except on the few stationary boss fights such as patchwerk where you can maintain melee dps throughout the entire duration of SnD.
I'm thinking of trying eviscerate primarily and see how much I like it. Something like this. Though I may relocate some points into murder depending on how useful I find it.
Also as for Endurance, I find evasion a more and more useful tool in raiding, and stacked with the 3 piece deathdealer bonus, a 2.5 minute cooldown is pretty quick.
It is. Your Eviscerate isn't going to average 2k+. Your SnD is. Even if you're only getting 60% of the benefit from SnD (60% ToT), you're better off with SnD.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
So how much DPS/DPE potential does relentless add to a dagger build? Assuming a typical combat cycle, I dump a SnD every 34 seconds, every 32 seconds if relentless procs. Over the course of a fight where you have 100% BS efficiency, what is the DPS/DPE increase of a true 60% proc rate on RS? I had like 75% of the math done just as I was waking up, but after a shower and a bottle of water, my mind has taken to wandering again and I can't rememer what I came up with just after waking :P
Basically, what it comes down to is being able to restart SnD at 32 seconds instead of 34 seconds every cycle. How much would dropping RS harm DPS/DPE potential?
I'm a pvp nutter, currently a SF/Vigor build, so I once I swap to a combat dagger build I want to hit as hard as possible with my eviscerates and backstabs.
well as combat daggers you'll never hit evi unless the mob is going to die within the next 5 seconds. On top of that, you should hit SnD at least every 30 seconds with 3/3 imp, more often if its less. And you're asking about Ruthlessness, not relentless strikes, which is the energy regain talent.
I don't have the math though, but I think its a bit better than imp poisons, esp for horde rogues.
So how much DPS/DPE potential does relentless add to a dagger build? Assuming a typical combat cycle, I dump a SnD every 34 seconds, every 32 seconds if relentless procs. Over the course of a fight where you have 100% BS efficiency, what is the DPS/DPE increase of a true 60% proc rate on RS? I had like 75% of the math done just as I was waking up, but after a shower and a bottle of water, my mind has taken to wandering again and I can't rememer what I came up with just after waking :P
Basically, what it comes down to is being able to restart SnD at 32 seconds instead of 34 seconds every cycle. How much would dropping RS harm DPS/DPE potential?
I'm a pvp nutter, currently a SF/Vigor build, so I once I swap to a combat dagger build I want to hit as hard as possible with my eviscerates and backstabs.
That should answer your questions re: DPS increases for RS. You're underestimating it, as most people do - not only do you lose those few seconds of SnD (from not having a closed cycle) - you also lose the ability to use that energy on Backstab and thereby convert it directly to damage. It gets you coming and going.
edit: You were talking about Ruthlessness. It has an interesting effect - combined with SnD, they exhibit very strong thresholding. Play with the sheet, you'll see what I mean.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
Any compelling arguments about not cannibalizing a few top points from the standard 20/31/0 swords build from Assassination to put towards Sleight of Hand? Or just general musings on the subject? (And since we're there, perhaps elusiveness to boot?)
Everybody is your brother until the rent comes due.
I am going with the pretty popular 15/31/5 build http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=n0gcoLZMIib0Ez0boV for combat daggers of course, but I am struggling where to put the lower filler points in combat. Atm I have gone for 2 imp ss, 3 LR, 2 parry and 2 endurance, trying to think which naxx fights really benefit most from these talents though, doesnt really seem to be difference at all.
Interested in how other people fill up the bottom of the combat tree for combat daggers.
Any compelling arguments about not cannibalizing a few top points from the standard 20/31/0 swords build from Assassination to put towards Sleight of Hand? Or just general musings on the subject? (And since we're there, perhaps elusiveness to boot?)
SoH looks to me to be an absolutely worthless PvE talent. When are you ever crit raiding? Only when a mob has you directly targetted, and its from their white hits. And given how hard raid mobs hit us in our amazing 2.5k buffed AC, you're basically fucked unless you dodge or parry them... crits are the least of your worries. As for the Feint bit, I'm trying to remember the last time I had to Feint. Basically, SoH is a really crappy "survivability" talent, and I'd rather spend those 2 points in LR or Deflection. When you figure you have to spend another 5 points to get to it (neither MoD or Opp are PvE Sword talents), the question is why WOULD you want to get SoH?
08/09/06, 11:02 AM
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