Simply put there has been a debate going on within our ranks about which class would benefit most from Ilbis. So its Rogue DPS Vs. Warrior threat generation... While I personally think Widow's Remorse would be a better call for a warrior and that a sword rogue would benefit greatly with an ilbis in either hand I'm anxious to see other opinions on the scenario.
Imo Ilbis in the hands of a sword rogue with a solid rotation would benefit the raid more than the extra threat generated from the higher damage numbers from a tanking warrior.
Simply put there has been a debate going on within our ranks about which class would benefit most from Ilbis. So its Rogue DPS Vs. Warrior threat generation... While I personally think Widow's Remorse would be a better call for a warrior and that a sword rogue would benefit greatly with an ilbis in either hand I'm anxious to see other opinions on the scenario.
Imo Ilbis in the hands of a sword rogue with a solid rotation would benefit the raid more than the extra threat generated from the higher damage numbers from a tanking warrior.
Anyone have the math to back up either claim?
Widows Remorse is better than Iblis for a Tanking Warrior. However my stance on the Iblis is that it greatly benefits a fury warrior too, so depending on your raid composition (and the high chance of your rogues going combat daggers. Pugio, Deaths Sting, Maexxena's Fang, and Harbinger of Doom) I'd say it's "almost" better suited on a fury warrior. Obviously Orc fury warriors wouldn't factor into that as they're best with Hatchet of the Sundered Bone and Crul'. Iblis afterall is only marginally better than Maldath last I heard for a sword rogue, and chances are any Maladath that's dropped for your guild went (or should have went) into the hands of a rogue. We currently give rogues priority on the Iblis, however personally I don't see why Fury warriors and sword rogues shouldn't get equal chance at it.
I have no doubt that ilbis would serve a DW fury warrior extremely well but my main concern is laying down guidelines on weapons wherein the winners of these weapons have the most positive impact on the raid's performance.
When a larger chunk of Naxx is on farm status there will be plently of swords spread throughout the roster but right now we have to get the bosses on farm. Naxx already pushes the limits for DPS vs. Time on many encounters, as a general rule I see the higher DPS my raid can consistantly put out the better off we all are, and the faster we progress. That and damage mitigation, but thats another thread entirely.
It seems the previous thread that was mentioned above agrees for the most part...
Where Ilbis is concerned...
Sword Rogues > DW Fury Warriors > Tanking Warriors
Hmm I like when sword rogues tell warriors they shouldn't get threat weapons. Unless you're human, is there even a reason to be sword over dagger? I mean, hard facts have shown combat dagger is better than combat sword, right? And since we're in the "I'm gonna tell other people what they should loot" phase, might as well tell all those combat sword rogues to respec dagger.
Iblis is a DECENT tanking weap. It's imo a clear upgrade from QS or razorgore hammer (quel serrar too low dps and proc based, razorgore hammer way too slow imo).
As a tank, I have considered all the viable options for threat upgrade, because rogues and mages keep getting new toys and new talents, and our threat skills still generate as much as they did back in MC at release.(minus shield slam)
Pugio was the first one, but hard to get, now we have iblis(decent threat, but no defensive stat at all), widow's(best tankign weap all around) and harbinger of doom(best compromise imo, fast speed, high dps, agi for dodge, stamina; awesome).
Obviously, first choice would be Widow's, but smart people go for whatever drop first, not for what can drop, maybe, if, one day. If we did, I'd still be using a serathil, waiting for bindings to drop for my thunderfury or for kelthuzad sword. Also, Iblis is arguably not as good as maladath for a sword rogue anyway, so I don't really understand why you'd want priority over everyone else on it.
But in the end, I guess I'd let rogues get it over me, or else they would cry a river. Then they can pull aggro and die more on trash, not my fault my taunt macro doesn't work when people adrenaline rush after first sunder ^^
Hmm I like when sword rogues tell warriors they shouldn't get threat weapons. Unless you're human, is there even a reason to be sword over dagger? I mean, hard facts have shown combat dagger is better than combat sword, right? And since we're in the "I'm gonna tell other people what they should loot" phase, might as well tell all those combat sword rogues to respec dagger.
The difference between combat daggers and combat swords is too inconsequential to matter. Its a matter of playstyle and preference. You have no business telling them to choose one over the other.
Originally Posted by Pyros
Also, Iblis is arguably not as good as maladath for a sword rogue anyway
Iblis is better than Maladath.
Originally Posted by Pyros
But in the end, I guess I'd let rogues get it over me, or else they would cry a river. Then they can pull aggro and die more on trash, not my fault my taunt macro doesn't work when people adrenaline rush after first sunder ^^
Hmm I like when sword rogues tell warriors they shouldn't get threat weapons. Unless you're human, is there even a reason to be sword over dagger? I mean, hard facts have shown combat dagger is better than combat sword, right? And since we're in the "I'm gonna tell other people what they should loot" phase, might as well tell all those combat sword rogues to respec dagger.
Believe it or not, there are boss fights in this game that don't allow you to backstab.
I have no doubt that ilbis would serve a DW fury warrior extremely well but my main concern is laying down guidelines on weapons wherein the winners of these weapons have the most positive impact on the raid's performance.
When a larger chunk of Naxx is on farm status there will be plently of swords spread throughout the roster but right now we have to get the bosses on farm. Naxx already pushes the limits for DPS vs. Time on many encounters, as a general rule I see the higher DPS my raid can consistantly put out the better off we all are, and the faster we progress. That and damage mitigation, but thats another thread entirely.
It seems the previous thread that was mentioned above agrees for the most part...
Where Ilbis is concerned...
Sword Rogues > DW Fury Warriors > Tanking Warriors
Well put.
Like I said in the old Rogue v Warrior thread, a rogue's sole purpose in any and all raids is to do damage. Thus, a rogue's weapons become more viable when warriors come into the mix simply because Warriors have other jobs, other purposes.
When your on a timed fight and you can't get enough DPS in the raid to defeat your boss, does your Raid Leader say "We need more DPS, Lets bring in more Fury Warriors". No, they don't and if they do, they shouldn't. In terms of raid damage, the classes that are most important are Mages and Rogues because that is what they were put in this game to do. It's a good thing they don't have loot priority issues.
In My Opinion,
A Warlock should not out damage a Mage
Just as
A Warrior should not out damage a Rogue
Hmm I like when sword rogues tell warriors they shouldn't get threat weapons. Unless you're human, is there even a reason to be sword over dagger? I mean, hard facts have shown combat dagger is better than combat sword, right? And since we're in the "I'm gonna tell other people what they should loot" phase, might as well tell all those combat sword rogues to respec dagger.
So on one hand you say that people should not be telling others what to loot, but then you go ahead and put forward the idea that rogues should not be looting swords at all because combat daggers are "better" than combat swords. So, not only are you suggesting what weapon I should use, but what spec too? You're a retard.
"You tell her she's a bitch!!"
"I can't, she's dead"
"Then you tell her she's a goddamn whore!"
However its an AMAZING rogue weapon. End of discussion i think.
It outperforms maladath, and any other sword offhand you can get hold of for a rogue, and with the new patch coming in, the difference between daggers and swords becomes fairly minimal. Personally our guild warriors are nice enough to pass without causing any drama, as we're passing on t3 for them atm (rogues can get DD to upgrade from t2 warrs cant).
It all depends how sensible your warriors are, and whether they're looking out for themselves, or for the guild as a whole.
Hmm I like when sword rogues tell warriors they shouldn't get threat weapons. Unless you're human, is there even a reason to be sword over dagger? I mean, hard facts have shown combat dagger is better than combat sword, right? And since we're in the "I'm gonna tell other people what they should loot" phase, might as well tell all those combat sword rogues to respec dagger.
So on one hand you say that people should not be telling others what to loot, but then you go ahead and put forward the idea that rogues should not be looting swords at all because combat daggers are "better" than combat swords. So, not only are you suggesting what weapon I should use, but what spec too? You're a retard.
If you read it properly he's not saying anything of the sort. He's saying *if* people are going to tell other people what they can loot based on best useage, why not go the full hog and tell them to spec optimally as well. Whether he's got it right that combat daggers is "optimal" (or at least better than combat swords) I don't know. That was my take on it anyway.
Not actually a member of Refusion on Burning Blade.
The problem is that you're limited by weapon drops, and it's more useful to have someone who can use effectively anything that drops than it is to have everyone choose the same "optimal" spec.
It's hard to ask for advice on weapon priorities without knowing alot about your raid composition. I also agree with I believe Anarkii that a rogue is the one who should choose his weapon spec. If it's combat swords, daggers, hemo next patch that should be left up to them in almost every case. I still stand by my thinking that DW Fury = Combat Swords > Tanking Warrior. A DW fury warrior and a combat sword rogue with similar tier of gear would gain about the same benefit in most cases, and with aggro aside the DW fury warrior will undoubtedly out DPS the rogue.
When your on a timed fight and you can't get enough DPS in the raid to defeat your boss, does your Raid Leader say "We need more DPS, Lets bring in more Fury Warriors". No, they don't and if they do, they shouldn't. In terms of raid damage, the classes that are most important are Mages and Rogues because that is what they were put in this game to do.
DW Fury warriors (a weapon neutral spec) can make equal use of Maces, Swords, Fists, Axes and Daggers, but want full priority on 1H Sword drops? Honestly, sword rogues have exactly 2 possible upgrades from Naxx, Iblis and Gressil. How many potential upgrades are there in Naxx for fury warriors? How does snagging the only OH weapon a sword rogue can use help the raid force?
Rogues have restricted choices due to their forced spec into a single weapon type. Once we spend DKP on a weapon, we are locked into that weapon type. We don't have the mix/match possiblities that a Fury warrior has.
It's hard to ask for advice on weapon priorities without knowing alot about your raid composition.
As a generalization we usually roll with 5-7 warriors and 5-6 rogues, the majority of which are combat dagger spec'd, one crazy gnome with a claw, and a couple of sword rogues. At most there are 2 warriors that are allowed to lay in the dps keeping in mind that when need be they are meant to shield up and tank. If anything our raids are DPS heavy, alot of mages, warlocks, and rogues.
When your on a timed fight and you can't get enough DPS in the raid to defeat your boss, does your Raid Leader say "We need more DPS, Lets bring in more Fury Warriors". No, they don't and if they do, they shouldn't. In terms of raid damage, the classes that are most important are Mages and Rogues because that is what they were put in this game to do.
We do.
I've got to say when we need the DPS and the call is made for a couple of our warriors to go all out the DPS increase is just as good. But it is really situational, when we can afford a warrior to step out of a tanking role they easily break the top 10 in damage.
For horde, fury warriors generally go slow MH, so Iblis would not be appropriate for MH. In this situation the question is wether to give your offtank an excellent MH for agro tanking (Yes its excellent, one of the best agro tank weapon in the game) that can also be used in OH or give the sword rogue the 100%OH. I think depending on what fights you have the most trouble with, the arguement can go either way. If your rogues are pulling agro off the Off tank, then upgrading the OT to the 2nd highest agro weapon in the game after Thunderfury is a good plan. If the OT isnt having agro issues then sure give it to the rogues for their minor upgrade over maladath.
For alliance, fury warriors can go fast MH. In this case the question is wether to give your offtank an excellent MH for agro tanking and an excellent MH for dps vs a 100% offhand. I would argue a 100% MH is worth more to the guild than a 100% offhand. You cant call an OH only weapon amazing, sorry.
Giving rogues priorities on both daggers and swords leaves warriors maces and axes which are both too slow for good heroic strike agro.
I think some people misunderstood a bit of my post. Guess I should add some <sarcasm> tags everywhere.
I've played a rogue for some time, up to twin emps. I was a sword rogue(human tho, so it's somewhat "legit"). I never really liked the feel of daggers, liked swords better. I understand quite clearly why people would want to be swords. However, even tho the difference is minimal, it still exists, and if you wanted the very best spec possible, you'd go for combat daggers.
The first part of the post was a joke to people explaining how, since there is a better tanking weapon, warriors shouldn't be able to get an Iblis for tanking. I don't believe every rogue should be dagger. Also, the 4iblis we got went to rogues.
However, the fact that Iblis is a good threat weapon can't be dismissed because it's a good dps offhand. For most guilds, and that is my opinion too, equipping tanks is what benefits the most to the guild. There's a reason we're getting dreadnaught before rogues get bonescythe. The tank is somewhat the central part of your raid. And threat is an increasing problem for every tank nowadays. It doesn't mean we lose aggro all the time, if you're a good tank, you still hold aggro fine. However, having a better weapon gives you more of a buffer, and will compensate for shitty luck when the mob dodges/parries or you miss.
The whole AR/taunt part was also another joke, I never purposefully let anyone die, even if they're being idiots with threat. But sometimes, I'd like to have a 60+dps weapon with 1% hit to keep aggro better than with my 1year old quel serrar. And quite frankly, I think it'd benefit rogues more than increasing their dps by 5%. At least most of the time, on patchwerk obviously it would help and I'd still use quel serrar. But increasing threat I can generate by 3-4% would be a 3-4% dps increase for all rogues(given they can sustain more than I can generate, which is easy)
Anyway the whole post was about not dismissing threat weapons for tanks, cause even tho you can argue on the usefulness of shadow priests and feral druids, there's nothing to argue about tanks holding aggro. And 1%hit is a direct 1% threat increase, add to that faster heroic strike speed and better rage generation/white dps, which accounts for 20-40% of total threat(depends on the fights, can be less than that too if you really get tons of rage), and getting a better weapon is more benefic than getting a 2%threat gloves enchant, or getting subtelty cloak enchant on every dps in the raid.
P.S: You sure about maladath, I thought reading in the rogues post that iblis was still worst than maladath, by a little bit(around 2dps)? Or does it become better in 1.12 with the +sword talent?
The benefit is there but there are other options for even tanking warriors, preferably (same speed better stats)Widow's Remorse or even the slower (fewer HS but higher DPS) Hatchet of Sundered Bone. There certainly won't be any rogue competition on those items . Those options aren't that far into Naxx either.
When your on a timed fight and you can't get enough DPS in the raid to defeat your boss, does your Raid Leader say "We need more DPS, Lets bring in more Fury Warriors". No, they don't and if they do, they shouldn't. In terms of raid damage, the classes that are most important are Mages and Rogues because that is what they were put in this game to do. It's a good thing they don't have loot priority issues.
i honestly don't care what blizzard intended class X to do in this game and its a stupid argument when discussing loot priorities
as is your statement regarding fury warriors
on non-aggro capped fights they reliably outdamage rogues, so why not use that fact to your advantage instead of getting stuck in the 'zomg they arent rogues, this is not allowed'-cage? they also have higher survivability, which in light of sustained dps, is a plus when your raid is getting hit with any AE dmg
the only arguments in this thread that i can agree with is that fury warriors have a larger pool of weapons to choose from, hence it makes sense to let the rogues actually get those few toys they are allowed to play with
but please, just cuz blizzard says rogues are dps they should get priority on loot? ...
Originally Posted by Zyla
If you can undo the bra with your teeth, it leaves your hands free for the keyboard.
Well Nemesis, given that you love fury warrior dps, you need to see why rogues feel pretty marginalized and unhappy with the current situation of things. Rogues have very little utility (yay the odd stun, at least its soemthing) and poor armor and have to be in melee range and have no AoE, thus when another class which beats us in most of those other factors appears and does more damage, it makes you wonder why they'd have rogues in the first place. But I digress.
In my opinion, there are a LOT more options for a tanking weapon, or for a fury weapon. As I mentioned in the other post, +axe skill is easily obtainable for fury warriors and there are a number of axes off of similar difficulty bosses with very similar stats. This to me is the lynchpin of the fury warrior argument.
Originally Posted by Pyros
Obviously, first choice would be Widow's, but smart people go for whatever drop first, not for what can drop, maybe, if, one day. If we did, I'd still be using a serathil, waiting for bindings to drop for my thunderfury or for kelthuzad sword. Also, Iblis is arguably not as good as maladath for a sword rogue anyway, so I don't really understand why you'd want priority over everyone else on it.
Pyros, I hope you were being sarcastic here. Taking "whatever drops first" at the expense of other classes is a great way to end up in the long run with some people with too much gear, and other people undergeared. Yes, you might get an Iblis before the Widow's. However, if you take Iblis over the 4 rogues in your guild who are whining, and then next week a Widow's drops, are you going to pass that sword to them so they can have an upgrade, and then both classes end up screwed? Or are you going to take Widow's, and diss the Iblis instead? If you get enough Iblises so that all the sword rogues have one, naturally you can take one for a tanking weapon, and then its not necessarily wasted.
Weapons should always go to the class they benefit most, foremost. Taking it because the other ones "won't drop" is greedy and ends up with a raid with worse gear overall, and more unhappy players.
Well, I wasn't being sarcrastic about taking whatever drops first. Ever had some drops not drop for 3months+? I've had. Like Claw of Chromaggus. Waiting for ONE drop is limiting yourself greatly, especially when it's a weapon(which tend to have lower drop rates than other items), and if you're the main tank of a guild, I think you should be able to get a dps weapon if you think it benefits you more than the raid.
Mind you, I'm not the MT of my guild. Used to, switched server, am not anymore. I'm the 3rd offtank, I tank stuff like patchwerk and do bugs on twin emps, or replace one of the 2 other mt if they're not online. I wouldn't take an iblis over a rogue, or bitch about it. But if the main tanks wanted one to increase their threat, when they're tanking every single boss encounter, because they don't want to wait for a particular drop that they might not see for 2months, I say give it to them. It's not about being greedy, it's just that that's what benefits the raid the most. If widow drops the week after, well too bad, the 2nd mt can get it, or another tank. And the MT who has an iblis will take widow's when other tanking warriors are done.
In the end, everyone will probably get weapons upgrades, all that matters is what order you get them in. I think increasing tank threat is better than increasing one rogue's dps. You might not agree, and that's fine. But the whole "We don't give stuff to tanking warriors because they have better options" is bullshit imo.
Also, we're talking of an offhand here. Even tho I understand really quite well sword spec mechanics, and the need to have a fast offhand for poison/sword procs, it's still not a MH, the dps gain isn't THAT great if you compare it to a maladath.
I don't often post here, but Pyros, what you're saying is outright greed. You say that you shouldn't have to wait for the item you want to drop, yet that it's fine for the single best sword rogue offhand in game to go to the MT, when the MT would easilly get uncontested priority on Widow's Remorse.
Iblis is incomparable, it's better than any other option, and is the single and ONLY option available as a Sword Rogue. Fury Warriors are not weapon dependant, though Human Warriors would obviously 'prefer' Maces or Swords, and Orcs would prefer Axes.
On the other hand, as a Warrior, i'd prefer Widow's Remorse as a tanking weapon, sure it might generate a bit less overall threat, but it provides beneficial tanking stats, and would be relatively uncontested.
As I believe Gurg posted in the other thread, if you had all the weapons out in front of you at once, how would you allocate them; Would you give the MT Iblis or Widow's Remorse ? You'd give them Widow's Remorse. So why then force your Rogues to sacrifice on their one and only upgrade, to allow the MT to get a weapon that they'll use some of the time, since the lack of Stamina isn't ideal for Patchwerk etc.. and only until they get Widow's ?
And I don't know about your tanks, but my MT is capable of holding aggro off Rogues doing well over 500 DPS as long as the Rogues are smart enough to give him a short grace period before engaging. Giving him Iblis would be 'nice' but is by no means necessary.
08/07/06, 2:49 AM
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