I was just wondering if anyone had done the math behind this? I looked for a post about this on these forums and the WoW forums but couldn't find anything. I've seen more and more warriors using 1% attack speed enchants on helm/gloves/legs instead of say 16str/15agi for DW Fury PvE dps. If current gear matters here is my profile http://ctprofiles.net/10362 . I'd appreciate any help you guys could give.
1% haste increases your white damage by 1%. So if that increase is more than 8 str or 15 agility will give you (so it is gear dependent), then go for it.
Use Recap or a similiar mod to parse out your white damage if you want to know what sort of white damage you are doing.
Also, there is a profile so you can add your name/guild to your information.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Yes, as Margot just noted, I'd think that 1% haste > 8str/16AP by a decent margin. 15 agi seems to beat 1% haste, though. The crit obviously affects all your attacks and probably pulls ahead. Which is as it should be, considering the relative value of the enchants.
At 250 dps a 1 percent bump in dps would give you 2.5 dps for 252.5 dps
8 str is 16 attack power is 1.14 dps, at 250 dps you get 251.14 dps
At least for this one example, 8 str is better due to the dps increase that strength will give you on your special attacks.
But, at higher levels of gear that difference should be overshadowed by the haste enchants, that breakpoint would take some math.
I would say at your gear, you have may reached that breakpoint, but like Gurg said, 15 agilty > 1 to haste.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Hm, 1% haste seems to be like 1% tohit to white damage only.
Now, I'm not that sure that 1% haste is much more better than 8 strength / 16 AP.
Since the 1% dps increase only counts for white damage, and white damage seems to be around 50% of a warriors damage, this would result in a 0,5% dps increase.
As a rogue, I'd prefer 16AP over 1% hit, although very close. But unfortunatley, we only receive 8AP from the agility/strength enchant. ;)
My spreadsheet was made specifically for these types of questions. I can't vouch for it being 100% accurate, but I think it's getting there. What people seem to forget often is that AP scales just like crit, hit, and melee haste. On my spreadsheet, the haste enchants have yet to prove better than +8 str on either legs or helm, for any level of gear.
Obviously there is a breakpoint for 1% haste being greater than the libram enchants for helm/legs, and later on gloves for warriors and with the gear he listed the OP is obviously past that breakpoint at least for helm/legs.
However not to nitpick or call the OP a liar, look at the shoulder enchant he has listed in his CTProfile
My Main profile is more of a wish list actually for dps. I MT so i don't take any of the dps gear other classes could use, but there are other wars with similar gear (besides the shoulder enchant and ring). This question was for them, not for me.
Yeah I understand it did not have anything to do with the actual topic, which i adressed, I was just curious as to why you listed that as your profile and stated it was your current gear.
I mean you could have said it was a wishlist or just linked the profile as an example of one where haste was better for gloves, but you referenced it as your current gear.
... Sorry to kind of derail the thread, just kindof irked me
I would have thought 1% haste would be fairly ineffective, as surely it requires you to be dpsing a single target long enough to actually gain an extra attack.
Take a theoretical 2.0 speed weapon and you spend 20 seconds dps'ing a target, you will get 10 swings. With 1% haste, you will still get in 20 swings during the same period. Your next attack is set to occur sooner, but you haven't actually gained any dps at this point in time … and unless you stop attacking (or more likely your target dies) within the 0.2 second timeframe where the hastened attack has been made (but the unhastened attack wouldn't yet have occurred) you haven't actually dealt more damage.
Whereas attack power will give you a dmg bonus every swing, regardless of how long you spend attacking a target.
My spreadsheet was made specifically for these types of questions. I can't vouch for it being 100% accurate, but I think it's getting there. What people seem to forget often is that AP scales just like crit, hit, and melee haste. On my spreadsheet, the haste enchants have yet to prove better than +8 str on either legs or helm, for any level of gear.
Actually with the changes I suggested, haste does beat out +8str due to execute spam speed changes and heroic strike efficiencies at least at the very highest levels of gear and buffs.
909.94 with 3%haste
908.2 with 2%haste 15agi
907.71 with 16str 15agi
But they are very very close. The rage gen comes out higher with haste than str. Its within the margin of error though imo. If you aren't 100% optimal with your bloodthirst usage (so str is less important) or you stack your cooldowns for execute (when rage gen is most imprtant) haste should pull ahead even more. Haste also increases your rage consistancy which is not measured by the spreadsheet.
One additional thing about haste is that 3% haste would allow you to use a 2.0 weapon and still spam execute at 1.5 speed: 1.5 * 1.3 * 1.03 = 2.0085.
Without 3% haste, you can only have a 1.95 speed weapon.
I don't know if servo arm is modelled correctly but here are the numbers
As for the original poster, here are the buffed numbers with just dense stones, alliance side
743.47 with 3% haste
746.2 with 2% haste 15agi
746.1 with 16str 15agi
With buffs + crit stones + mongoose + juju + dumpling + winterfall firewater + 1 rage pot
881.43 with 3%haste
883.74 with 2%haste 15agi
882.87 with 16str 15agi
With buffs + crit stones + mongoose + juju + dumpling + winterfall firewater + 1 rage pot + onyxia + zg (pushing over 19 rage per second here with heroic strike every 4.4 seconds and all cooldowns used)
1040.13 with 3%haste
1043.3 with 2%haste 15agi
1042.7 with 16str 15agi
2% haste 15 agi seems like the best way to go with that level gear.
If you could execute every 1.5 seconds instead of every 2.05 seconds(due to incoming rage) youd do 1063 instead of 1043 and 16 str would equal 2%haste. Also using Kiss of the spider during execute range would speed up your executes to ~1.75 speed on average which would increase your dps a bit too.
Also the numbers came out as 1045, 885.25 and 747. with castigator MH and servo arm OH. Execute speeds up to 1.93 speed (1.63 with kiss) The faster speed and higher dps range make it a better MH than servo arm, esp with the way servo arm works OH.
(btw Iblis instead of castigator in MH makes it better to use heroic strikes and no hamstrings at all and raises your dps to 751 due to the faster speed, despite its lower dps, this also causes 16str to be better than 2%haste again)
So umm its all very confusing but 2% haste is good for weapons that are 2.0 speed or slower.
Also edgemasters slighly increases dps over annihalation, but I wont give the numbers because they are depressing Im sure.
PS3. There was no bug in the original calculation. I need coffee.
I would have thought 1% haste would be fairly ineffective, as surely it requires you to be dpsing a single target long enough to actually gain an extra attack.
Take a theoretical 2.0 speed weapon and you spend 20 seconds dps'ing a target, you will get 10 swings. With 1% haste, you will still get in 20 swings during the same period. Your next attack is set to occur sooner, but you haven't actually gained any dps at this point in time … and unless you stop attacking (or more likely your target dies) within the 0.2 second timeframe where the hastened attack has been made (but the unhastened attack wouldn't yet have occurred) you haven't actually dealt more damage.
Whereas attack power will give you a dmg bonus every swing, regardless of how long you spend attacking a target.
Logical fallicy. What happens if the fight is exactly 19.9999seconds long. Then you just did 10 swings with 1%haste and only 9 swings without and you did 11% more damage.
I would have thought 1% haste would be fairly ineffective, as surely it requires you to be dpsing a single target long enough to actually gain an extra attack.
Take a theoretical 2.0 speed weapon and you spend 20 seconds dps'ing a target, you will get 10 swings. With 1% haste, you will still get in 20 swings during the same period. Your next attack is set to occur sooner, but you haven't actually gained any dps at this point in time … and unless you stop attacking (or more likely your target dies) within the 0.2 second timeframe where the hastened attack has been made (but the unhastened attack wouldn't yet have occurred) you haven't actually dealt more damage.
Whereas attack power will give you a dmg bonus every swing, regardless of how long you spend attacking a target.
What if the fight lasts for 1.98 seconds? Your haste enchant has just caused you to get 2 attacks instead of 1.
On another note this enchant will generally increase ALL damage by 1% (unless your rage is coming from taking damage). Anything that increases your white damage will generally also increase your yellow damage by the same amount.
Anyway, I was surprised at the highest level of gear the difference was so small.
I don't think it is worth the effort even at Naxx level gear, since unbuffed it is a little weaker, and super buffed it is only 3 dps difference.
Hopefully there will be new warrior dps Helm/Leg enchants so wondering which one is better will be moot.
Originally Posted by Celandro
Also edgemasters slighly increases dps over annihalation, but I wont give the numbers because they are depressing Im sure.
The OP already has +5 maces, so he doesn't need Edgemasters, and it doesn't have maces on them :(
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
I would have thought 1% haste would be fairly ineffective, as surely it requires you to be dpsing a single target long enough to actually gain an extra attack.
Take a theoretical 2.0 speed weapon and you spend 20 seconds dps'ing a target, you will get 10 swings. With 1% haste, you will still get in 20 swings during the same period. Your next attack is set to occur sooner, but you haven't actually gained any dps at this point in time … and unless you stop attacking (or more likely your target dies) within the 0.2 second timeframe where the hastened attack has been made (but the unhastened attack wouldn't yet have occurred) you haven't actually dealt more damage.
Whereas attack power will give you a dmg bonus every swing, regardless of how long you spend attacking a target.
Logical fallicy. What happens if the fight is exactly 19.9999seconds long. Then you just did 10 swings with 1%haste and only 9 swings without and you did 11% more damage.
Ops posted this after a conversation we had this morning. We saw some fury warriors using them with some good results. His wish list is basically what I am using now. If you want a true profile of gear to go off of, use mine
On another note this enchant will generally increase ALL damage by 1% (unless your rage is coming from taking damage). Anything that increases your white damage will generally also increase your yellow damage by the same amount.
1% haste speeds up the global cooldown on Bloodthirst/MS and Whirlwind?
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Eh, my nostalgia goggles aren't as good as they used to be.
I would have thought 1% haste would be fairly ineffective, as surely it requires you to be dpsing a single target long enough to actually gain an extra attack.
Take a theoretical 2.0 speed weapon and you spend 20 seconds dps'ing a target, you will get 10 swings. With 1% haste, you will still get in 20 swings during the same period. Your next attack is set to occur sooner, but you haven't actually gained any dps at this point in time … and unless you stop attacking (or more likely your target dies) within the 0.2 second timeframe where the hastened attack has been made (but the unhastened attack wouldn't yet have occurred) you haven't actually dealt more damage.
Whereas attack power will give you a dmg bonus every swing, regardless of how long you spend attacking a target.
Logical fallicy. What happens if the fight is exactly 19.9999seconds long. Then you just did 10 swings with 1%haste and only 9 swings without and you did 11% more damage.
The point is that the chance that 1%haste will result in an extra swing is equal to number of swings * 1%. In a 5 minute fight (what the spreadsheet assumes) and a 2.0 speed weapon, thats 150 total swings or 151.5 total swings. You could use your exact same arguement to say that HOJ is bad cuz it only has a 2% chance of happening, or that 1%crit is bad because its only a 1% higher chance that an additional crit will happen per swing. Haste has to be treated exactly the same as every other %chance in comparisons.
On another note this enchant will generally increase ALL damage by 1% (unless your rage is coming from taking damage). Anything that increases your white damage will generally also increase your yellow damage by the same amount.
1% haste speeds up the global cooldown on Bloodthirst/MS and Whirlwind?
Heroic strike and indirectly execute (unless you are using 1.5 speed weapons or flurry is up 100% of the time and you have 1.95 speed weapons).
Then you add in your 1% gain from extra rage which at 15dmg->rage conversion comes out to 0.5% increase in total yellow damage.
So its 1% boost in white damage, 0.5% boost to all yellow damage and 1.505% increase to heroic strike and some variable number for execute (1% gain from faster executes and some extra gain due to having 1% more rage but the extra rage is at 15 dmg per rage default but you stack deathwish + recklessness too so who knows)
1% haste is more white damage increase and more rage gen then 8str or 15agi so how good it is depends entirely on your rage ->dmg conversion rate.
Are all these haste calculations for 1.11 or 1.12? Haste is getting a boost next patch - it's not very large, but it may be what's needed to push it clearly above everything else.
Are all these haste calculations for 1.11 or 1.12? Haste is getting a boost next patch - it's not very large, but it may be what's needed to push it clearly above everything else.
Haste is staying the same. The tooltips are the only thing changing to make them easier to understand. (besides the slight thunderclap nerf)
Heh, it's amusing to see this post here, as a few weeks ago I made a post on my guild forums about the exact same thing: namely, when does the increased white damage from a Rapidity enchant (or glove enchant) outpace the damage lost on special attacks when substituting it for a Voracity enchant (or +7 str on gloves).
According to my calculations, the break-even point is roughly 1800 AP for current near-top-end weapons, both for fury warriors and ms warriors; though truly you're looking at the tooltip white dps as a measure more than actual attack power.
Again, this is assuming completely optimal usage of BT/MS/WW, so 7.5 rps dedicated solely to them, being triggered as soon as the cooldowns are up. Any-sub optimal usage of these skills and haste pulls ahead quickly, since the lost ap from voracity has less effect.
Also, on-next-swing abilities such as heroic strike and cleave benefit much more from haste effects than normal attacks, because the large static component acts similar to a white swing with a much larger ap added to it; therefore the more you use hs/cleave (in addition to maximum BT/MS/WW usage) the better haste is than voracity.
I was just wondering if anyone had done the math behind this? I looked for a post about this on these forums and the WoW forums but couldn't find anything. I've seen more and more warriors using 1% attack speed enchants on helm/gloves/legs instead of say 16str/15agi for DW Fury PvE dps. If current gear matters here is my profile http://ctprofiles.net/10362 . I'd appreciate any help you guys could give.
Sickmode
Forgotten Heroes
Wasnt the 26ap 1% crit shoulder enchant a drop from sapphiron?
One exception might be when you have Thunderfury. It's such a broken weapon but will do an innordinate amount of white damage compared to other specs due to the proc (a good portion of the proc count as white damage). So the haste might give better numbers if you use TF.
08/09/06, 11:28 AM
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