This is my first post to these forums. I've gleaned tons of information perusing them over the past few weeks. However, I can't seem to find a discussion of this topic on past posts. This recently came up on our server forums. Currently all our shaman are generally dropping WF over Flametongue and GoA in a standard dps group. However, say you are in a group consisting of 1 hunter, 1 Warrior, and 1 or 2 Rogues... Is Grace of Air/Flametongue superior to using WF?
This might be a difficult question to answer, and it may not be clear cut. I've tried to make a hypothetical guess, and the dps seems very close to me. I was hoping someone out there may have done the math or experimented with this in the past. It's very hard to factor in abilities such as flurry, extra rage gained, etc. It also is definitely weapon and talent dependent (bigger slower weapons, even though they benefit more from Flametongue would probably benefit more from WF.) Maybe I'm simply naive about how much white damage adequately geared warriors and tanks are hitting for on normal attacks and the answer is clear cut and quite simple. Conventional wisdom seems to point towards using WF, but after spending a few hours today puzzling this over I am no longer so sure.
The harder the melee hit, the higher the DPS of WF totem. Flametongue is flat damage, and it doesn't scale with your +dmg. WF doesn't help hunters, and sometimes rogues would prefer GoA so they can use crit stones or poisons. Best bet is to ask what the group members want.
I have been wondering about this also, its also important to take into effect CoE and and fire vulnerablility.
Flametongue is still flat damage. CoE and fire vulnerability add to the damage, but it never scales. As encounters grow harder and the damage output of DPS melee increases, flametongue becomes less and less effective.
no.. the point is that GoA can also give a strong advantage to hunters, while putting down WF favors warriors and rogues alot more. the attempt would be to buff hunter dps aswell while minimizing warrior/rogue dps loss. searing has nothing to do with buffing party members.
ps: might you be not that known with shaman specifics, we have 4 elements and of each element can only be 1 totem up. both Wf and GoA are wind totems
Flame tongue is something fun to have down when you are in a rogue dagger group, or you have to put ta down. It's completely inferior for any other class/situation.
WF is a massive buff to warriors, in the range of 100-150 dps at the high end. No clue how much flame tongue does but I'm pretty certain it's miles away from that.
Thanks for the input, much appreciated. The more I thought about this and looked at numbers and asked around about base white damage it is pretty certain WF far outperforms both of them even though the hunter isn't getting any benefits. And yes, scaling is fairly important and FT will simply lag behind in the long run.
As a dagger rogue (Pugio MH), I see flametongue hitting for 22-23 fire damage (fast weapon), which is really not that great. Instant poison is 130 on average, and a 20% proc (unless wearing 3BF, making it 25%). 22.5*5 is only 112.5, so FT is worse than IP unless I'm unlucky with procs.
Now a sword rogue gets more. I think my guildy (AQR) said he got 38 fire dmg with FT. For him, that's better than IP (38*5 = 190).
As a dagger rogue (Pugio MH), I see flametongue hitting for 22-23 fire damage (fast weapon), which is really not that great. Instant poison is 130 on average, and a 20% proc (unless wearing 3BF, making it 25%). 22.5*5 is only 112.5, so FT is worse than IP unless I'm unlucky with procs.
Now a sword rogue gets more. I think my guildy (AQR) said he got 38 fire dmg with FT. For him, that's better than IP (38*5 = 190).
WF is still as good as it gets though.
Since the last patch, Flametongue gets about 10% of a Shaman's +dmg. You might have just been in a group with a Shaman who wasn't wearing much in the way of +dmg. The variance I had going from a 1.5 to a 3.4 was less than 10 damage per hit, so it's basically weapon speed independant. Once you're talking about 300-400 spell damage with Stormcaller's gear and some other various mix-matching, Flametongue actually does some pretty decent damage on fast weapons considering how shitty it used to be and that it stacks with GoA.
If Windfury ever stops proccing off special attacks (which is only a matter of time, IMO) I'd imagine this comparison will be a lot more valid than it is right now.
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Eh, my nostalgia goggles aren't as good as they used to be.
As a dagger rogue (Pugio MH), I see flametongue hitting for 22-23 fire damage (fast weapon), which is really not that great. Instant poison is 130 on average, and a 20% proc (unless wearing 3BF, making it 25%). 22.5*5 is only 112.5, so FT is worse than IP unless I'm unlucky with procs.
Now a sword rogue gets more. I think my guildy (AQR) said he got 38 fire dmg with FT. For him, that's better than IP (38*5 = 190).
WF is still as good as it gets though.
Since the last patch, Flametongue gets about 10% of a Shaman's +dmg. You might have just been in a group with a Shaman who wasn't wearing much in the way of +dmg. The variance I had going from a 1.5 to a 3.4 was less than 10 damage per hit, so it's basically weapon speed independant. Once you're talking about 300-400 spell damage with Stormcaller's gear and some other various mix-matching, Flametongue actually does some pretty decent damage on fast weapons considering how shitty it used to be and that it stacks with GoA.
If Windfury ever stops proccing off special attacks (which is only a matter of time, IMO) I'd imagine this comparison will be a lot more valid than it is right now.
Hmm, I think he told me that the FT totem buff did not receive any benefits from his spell dmg, but his self-buff FT did. We don't use it much, so I'm not working with much information, but I'll ask him about it and maybe do some testing. He may also have briefly spec'd the improved weapons totems, so I might be comparing improved with unimproved for the 22 vs 38. I just remembered the number the sword rogue said and the number from the last time I had FT.
Logging in -right now- to test if it gets my +damage. I've been wondering this for weeks, but always forget.
As to WF/GOA, I'd really like some of you rogues to come beat it in the heads of several of my guildie rogues that WF is just flat out better in pretty much every situation where you want to, you know, DPS. Our dagger rogues just drool over GoA and scoff at WF to my eternal frustration. The warriors, on the other hand, flip out over WF.
Overall, we've actually had a fairly substantial (seeming?) dps increase for our hunters by making a 4 hunter/1 shaman group, with the melee dps groups filled with rogue/warrior/shaman- keep in mind that there's no reason that the MT group can't be considered a 'dps group' for most fights. This is missing out on Furious Howl and Trueshot, but the additive dps (especially if you can con a shaman into speccing imp GoA) really 'feels' substantial, especially if you have any 0/21/30s (it's over 200 RAP). In addition, less chance of rogues/warriors missing out on battleshout/totems- so mix to group.
Ah, I remember the days when it was our mana totems people wanted us for...
Edit:
FT totem does not take +damage from you, or from the person using it, or from you if you change your +damage (either on drop or later). IT is a fully static buff.
Originally Posted by bartolimu
It makes me want to hit Marge Thatcher on the nose with a rolled up newspaper.
As to WF/GOA, I'd really like some of you rogues to come beat it in the heads of several of my guildie rogues that WF is just flat out better in pretty much every situation where you want to, you know, DPS.
A rogue in my guild ran Chalon's spreadsheet on GoA vs. WF and she came out to something like 460 DPS with GoA and 516 with WF. Flametongue Totem adds about 12 DPS, so GoA + FT still does not come close to WF. Just have your rogues do the same thing (if they're at all interested in min/maxing and have ever looked at a spreadsheet).
As to WF/GOA, I'd really like some of you rogues to come beat it in the heads of several of my guildie rogues that WF is just flat out better in pretty much every situation where you want to, you know, DPS. Our dagger rogues just drool over GoA and scoff at WF to my eternal frustration. The warriors, on the other hand, flip out over WF.
I'm typically in a Warr (imp BS+AQ book), Hunter (TSA), Rogue, Rogue, Shaman group unless the fight calls for some other special grouping.
We almost always have WF+SoE.
The only time I ask for GoA is if I really want the extra dodge. I have lived through only *one* razuvious kill, because I'm typically top threat when MC breaks (and so far it has always broken early at least once per kill), and no matter how hard I mash the evasion button, the first swing seems to come before it activates, so I need as much dodge as possible to get past that first swing. If I could just get evasion up, I'd be pretty safe for the duration (had more successful evasions back in the learning stages).
I wanna get uber crits on the hopeless adds too :(.
I have lived through only *one* razuvious kill, because I'm typically top threat when MC breaks (and so far it has always broken early at least once per kill), and no matter how hard I mash the evasion button, the first swing seems to come before it activates, so I need as much dodge as possible to get past that first swing.
On two separate occasions I've vanished while taking a 16k+ swing from razuvious and not taken any damage. The first time I didn't even realize I lived. I saw the damage on SCT and assumed I was dead so I stopped backstabbing. About 1 minute later I realized I was alive and only autoattacking the whole time.
I have lived through only *one* razuvious kill, because I'm typically top threat when MC breaks (and so far it has always broken early at least once per kill), and no matter how hard I mash the evasion button, the first swing seems to come before it activates, so I need as much dodge as possible to get past that first swing.
On two separate occasions I've vanished while taking a 16k+ swing from razuvious and not taken any damage. The first time I didn't even realize I lived. I saw the damage on SCT and assumed I was dead so I stopped backstabbing. About 1 minute later I realized I was alive and only autoattacking the whole time.
I've vanished out of Razorgore's deathsplosion before - if you time it right, you can use it to avoid *one* attack. I assume it's a lag/clientserver interaction thing.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
Hm. OK, well, I've only ever gotten it to work on a single attack headed my way, but I believe ya. My timing must be off. :)
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
I have lived through only *one* razuvious kill, because I'm typically top threat when MC breaks (and so far it has always broken early at least once per kill), and no matter how hard I mash the evasion button, the first swing seems to come before it activates, so I need as much dodge as possible to get past that first swing.
On two separate occasions I've vanished while taking a 16k+ swing from razuvious and not taken any damage. The first time I didn't even realize I lived. I saw the damage on SCT and assumed I was dead so I stopped backstabbing. About 1 minute later I realized I was alive and only autoattacking the whole time.
Well the whole point of rogues topping threat is so when we do have an early break, someone can occupy him with evasion a few seconds till the next add taunt. If all of our rogues just vanished like pansies, he'd start one-shotting people who don't have the slightest prayer of avoiding it.
Now if I did pick it up successfully, eventually had less than 5 secs left on evasion, and didn't see another MC coming, *then* I'd tell #2 on KTM to hit evasion and vanish for my own safety.
Of course the first swing usually kills me, so I don't get to be in that situation :(.
Flametongue Totem isn't even more dps than the rogues own poisons. It has nearly 0 use. Ever.
I drop it for melee alongside Tranquil on fights where they're aggro-limited at the start but will get Windfury later on and thus aren't putting a poison/stone on their MH. So I'll drop Tranquil/Flametongue for, say, a minute, then once aggro is solid or they've had a chance to vanish, Windfury+Searing.
Yeah, I've noticed you mention that before, which is why I no longer say it has 0 use. Maybe I underestimate how often you can use it in the situation you describe.
I really wish they would just scrap the totem and give us something for spell casters instead.
08/09/06, 11:37 PM
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