Flametongue/GoA vs. WindFury totems

Abev · 08/09/06, 10:37 PM

Hi,

This is my first post to these forums. I've gleaned tons of information perusing them over the past few weeks. However, I can't seem to find a discussion of this topic on past posts. This recently came up on our server forums. Currently all our shaman are generally dropping WF over Flametongue and GoA in a standard dps group. However, say you are in a group consisting of 1 hunter, 1 Warrior, and 1 or 2 Rogues... Is Grace of Air/Flametongue superior to using WF?

This might be a difficult question to answer, and it may not be clear cut. I've tried to make a hypothetical guess, and the dps seems very close to me. I was hoping someone out there may have done the math or experimented with this in the past. It's very hard to factor in abilities such as flurry, extra rage gained, etc. It also is definitely weapon and talent dependent (bigger slower weapons, even though they benefit more from Flametongue would probably benefit more from WF.) Maybe I'm simply naive about how much white damage adequately geared warriors and tanks are hitting for on normal attacks and the answer is clear cut and quite simple. Conventional wisdom seems to point towards using WF, but after spending a few hours today puzzling this over I am no longer so sure.

Thanks,
Abev

Durnitol · 08/09/06, 10:42 PM

The harder the melee hit, the higher the DPS of WF totem. Flametongue is flat damage, and it doesn't scale with your +dmg. WF doesn't help hunters, and sometimes rogues would prefer GoA so they can use crit stones or poisons. Best bet is to ask what the group members want.

Mulok · 08/09/06, 10:45 PM

I have been wondering about this also, its also important to take into effect CoE and and fire vulnerablility.

Durnitol · 08/09/06, 10:54 PM

Originally Posted by Mulok

I have been wondering about this also, its also important to take into effect CoE and and fire vulnerablility.

Flametongue is still flat damage. CoE and fire vulnerability add to the damage, but it never scales. As encounters grow harder and the damage output of DPS melee increases, flametongue becomes less and less effective.

• Vykromond · 08/09/06, 11:37 PM

Flametongue/GoA is two totems. Maybe I'm wrong, but wouldn't the comparison then be Flametongue+GoA vs. Windfury+Searing?

vorda · 08/09/06, 11:55 PM

no.. the point is that GoA can also give a strong advantage to hunters, while putting down WF favors warriors and rogues alot more. the attempt would be to buff hunter dps aswell while minimizing warrior/rogue dps loss. searing has nothing to do with buffing party members.

ps: might you be not that known with shaman specifics, we have 4 elements and of each element can only be 1 totem up. both Wf and GoA are wind totems

Oneeye · 08/10/06, 12:09 AM

Flame tongue is something fun to have down when you are in a rogue dagger group, or you have to put ta down. It's completely inferior for any other class/situation.

Thorb · 08/10/06, 1:37 AM

WF is a massive buff to warriors, in the range of 100-150 dps at the high end. No clue how much flame tongue does but I'm pretty certain it's miles away from that.

Abev · 08/10/06, 8:52 AM

Thanks for the input, much appreciated. The more I thought about this and looked at numbers and asked around about base white damage it is pretty certain WF far outperforms both of them even though the hunter isn't getting any benefits. And yes, scaling is fairly important and FT will simply lag behind in the long run.

Trazhenko · 08/10/06, 10:21 AM

As a dagger rogue (Pugio MH), I see flametongue hitting for 22-23 fire damage (fast weapon), which is really not that great. Instant poison is 130 on average, and a 20% proc (unless wearing 3BF, making it 25%). 22.5*5 is only 112.5, so FT is worse than IP unless I'm unlucky with procs.

Now a sword rogue gets more. I think my guildy (AQR) said he got 38 fire dmg with FT. For him, that's better than IP (38*5 = 190).

WF is still as good as it gets though.

Nite_Moogle · 08/10/06, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by Trazhenko

As a dagger rogue (Pugio MH), I see flametongue hitting for 22-23 fire damage (fast weapon), which is really not that great. Instant poison is 130 on average, and a 20% proc (unless wearing 3BF, making it 25%). 22.5*5 is only 112.5, so FT is worse than IP unless I'm unlucky with procs.

Now a sword rogue gets more. I think my guildy (AQR) said he got 38 fire dmg with FT. For him, that's better than IP (38*5 = 190).

WF is still as good as it gets though.

Since the last patch, Flametongue gets about 10% of a Shaman's +dmg. You might have just been in a group with a Shaman who wasn't wearing much in the way of +dmg. The variance I had going from a 1.5 to a 3.4 was less than 10 damage per hit, so it's basically weapon speed independant. Once you're talking about 300-400 spell damage with Stormcaller's gear and some other various mix-matching, Flametongue actually does some pretty decent damage on fast weapons considering how shitty it used to be and that it stacks with GoA.

If Windfury ever stops proccing off special attacks (which is only a matter of time, IMO) I'd imagine this comparison will be a lot more valid than it is right now.

Flubber · 08/10/06, 11:06 AM

Consecrated Sharpening Stones and GoA vs WF in the same group makeup on Patchwerk?

I still lean towards the WF/Searing. However, my personal weapon has either Flametounge or an Oil on it.

Trazhenko · 08/10/06, 1:09 PM

Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle

Originally Posted by Trazhenko

As a dagger rogue (Pugio MH), I see flametongue hitting for 22-23 fire damage (fast weapon), which is really not that great. Instant poison is 130 on average, and a 20% proc (unless wearing 3BF, making it 25%). 22.5*5 is only 112.5, so FT is worse than IP unless I'm unlucky with procs.

Now a sword rogue gets more. I think my guildy (AQR) said he got 38 fire dmg with FT. For him, that's better than IP (38*5 = 190).

WF is still as good as it gets though.

Since the last patch, Flametongue gets about 10% of a Shaman's +dmg. You might have just been in a group with a Shaman who wasn't wearing much in the way of +dmg. The variance I had going from a 1.5 to a 3.4 was less than 10 damage per hit, so it's basically weapon speed independant. Once you're talking about 300-400 spell damage with Stormcaller's gear and some other various mix-matching, Flametongue actually does some pretty decent damage on fast weapons considering how shitty it used to be and that it stacks with GoA.

If Windfury ever stops proccing off special attacks (which is only a matter of time, IMO) I'd imagine this comparison will be a lot more valid than it is right now.

Hmm, I think he told me that the FT totem buff did not receive any benefits from his spell dmg, but his self-buff FT did. We don't use it much, so I'm not working with much information, but I'll ask him about it and maybe do some testing. He may also have briefly spec'd the improved weapons totems, so I might be comparing improved with unimproved for the 22 vs 38. I just remembered the number the sword rogue said and the number from the last time I had FT.

♦ Oggie · 08/10/06, 1:20 PM

Logging in -right now- to test if it gets my +damage. I've been wondering this for weeks, but always forget.

As to WF/GOA, I'd really like some of you rogues to come beat it in the heads of several of my guildie rogues that WF is just flat out better in pretty much every situation where you want to, you know, DPS. Our dagger rogues just drool over GoA and scoff at WF to my eternal frustration. The warriors, on the other hand, flip out over WF.

Overall, we've actually had a fairly substantial (seeming?) dps increase for our hunters by making a 4 hunter/1 shaman group, with the melee dps groups filled with rogue/warrior/shaman- keep in mind that there's no reason that the MT group can't be considered a 'dps group' for most fights. This is missing out on Furious Howl and Trueshot, but the additive dps (especially if you can con a shaman into speccing imp GoA) really 'feels' substantial, especially if you have any 0/21/30s (it's over 200 RAP). In addition, less chance of rogues/warriors missing out on battleshout/totems- so mix to group.

Ah, I remember the days when it was our mana totems people wanted us for...

Edit:

FT totem does not take +damage from you, or from the person using it, or from you if you change your +damage (either on drop or later). IT is a fully static buff.

Erongg · 08/10/06, 3:22 PM

As to WF/GOA, I'd really like some of you rogues to come beat it in the heads of several of my guildie rogues that WF is just flat out better in pretty much every situation where you want to, you know, DPS.

A rogue in my guild ran Chalon's spreadsheet on GoA vs. WF and she came out to something like 460 DPS with GoA and 516 with WF. Flametongue Totem adds about 12 DPS, so GoA + FT still does not come close to WF. Just have your rogues do the same thing (if they're at all interested in min/maxing and have ever looked at a spreadsheet).