I picked up KoS last night and using it along side Drake Fang. Still getting used to it since I have never really used 'use activated' trinkets before. Was very content with its execution on patchwerk though and had fun with it on Grob. It's fun to have that, snd and blade flurry going and see my attack speed with deaths sting drop to around .9.
Now generally I use deadly poisons on bosses for dps. I'm wondering when with enough attack speed instants would really overtake it.
Farewell, remorse: all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good.
~Paradise Lost (bk. IX, l. 171)
The thing about badge though, even as a burst trinket it's not that great. It is slightly better than ES by the calculations I've done, but I think there's much better choices for that, too.
I thought that there was a minimum cap on weapon speed at 1.0. So if you were using some pretty fast weapons, like daggers, wouldn't you be better off *not* stacking BF & Kiss, so that their effects aren't wasted?
I thought that there was a minimum cap on weapon speed at 1.0. So if you were using some pretty fast weapons, like daggers, wouldn't you be better off *not* stacking BF & Kiss, so that their effects aren't wasted?
If there were such a cap, you would be.
Good thing there's no such cap.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
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Given that I haven't gotten a Drake Fang yet, and I'm unlikely to get one any time in the near future (At least 5 people ahead of me for it, at present, at a 10% droprate), I'll look into picking up Badge of the Swarmguard to replace my Rune of the Guard Captain. Still, though, I think that it's better used on a hunter who can swap between it and another activated trinket (Say, Devilsaur Eye or Slayer's Crest), and get more use out of both of them.
Jesus don't want me in a sunbeam
Sunbeams are always made on me
Don't expect me to cry, for all the reasons I'm gonna die
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^^ As such a hunter Kytrarewn, I'd be inclined to agree.
Jom Gabbar and Badge of the Swarm Guard trinket swapping into static trinkets and back is fairly amazing for a hunter, and our first 2 or 3 badges, and first Jom Gabbar all went to hunters. :D
Running the two concurrently is a great synergy as well, pop Badge for ~10 seconds (30 second duration) and then Jom (20 second duration), and you can stack your shots in such a way that you're get one aimed/multi about half-way in and one of each toward the end. Fully stacked, 6 badge and +650 AP makes for some ridiculous Aimed/Multis.
My only complaint is that the Badge (contrary to what was stated earlier in this thread) is on a 3 minute cooldown, while Jom is on 2 minutes. I haven't really done the math on whether the synergy is worth delaying Jom by a minute to use them together the second go around. At a glance I would think waiting would be worse (and I use them when they're up).
The latter calculation seems to be correct. I wonder how do you come to the conclusion that earthstrike provides more AP than JG? IIRC both trinkets have 2 min CD, 20 seconds duration. JG will average out on about 320 ap, whereas earthstrike provides 280 ap sustained.
Yeah you are right. I did a calculation a while ago, but it seems I somewhere messed up, maybe took a wrong cooldown or something.
Earthstrike equals a flat 46.6 AP trinket, whereas JG equals a flat 65 AP trinket or, depending on how it works, 59.6 AP.
Or does the tick at 20 never happen, because it would start after the trinkets duration has ended?
As for the discussion of vanish.
I used to have an addon that automatically would remove all my equipment when dropping out of combat (in case of a wipe). That worked very well in 1.10, but never did so far in 1.11.
There is no dropping out of combat for rogues anymore. Ever.
Still sets you at the end of the aggro list though.
One sec, one time it actually worked. We wiped on C'Thun and I activated the addon, ran out the room, and then I was ported into the stomache. On the way out, actually, I dropped combat for a milisecond. Had nothing to do with vanish of course, but that wipe was free for me. *hrhr*
The buff that Jom Gabbar applies to you stacks up to 10. Each rank is worth 65 Attack Power. So when you first activate it, you will see the little poison buff icon appear, and it will read +65 AP. 2 seconds later it stacks up to 2, and reads +130. Reaches its top value at 10 buffs, +650 AP. It stays at +650 for 2 seconds, and then disappears.
I really love my badge as a rogue. I use it with DFT, and then stack together my other cooldowns on top of it. Blade flurry for 15 seconds with 6 stacks means you get 156% speed against 0 armor mobs. I generally find it makes me do between 10% and 15% more damage when I've got 6 stacks, but of course it depends on the mob and the debuffs on him. However, zeroing out a mobs armor is always powerful.
After the patch, being able to push AR, BotSG, BF all on top of one another will give you an insane damage burst. If you're really worried about aggro (which you should be) you vanish in the middle and reopen with ambush, or just break stealth as combat swords and continue beating on them. I really consider it to be one of the best damage trinkets in the game. Whenever I use Hand of Justice instead, I never feel like I do as much damage.
Also, Chalon's spreadsheet DOES have the badge modeled, but he models it in a very poor way. He prorates the armor reduction over the entire course of the cooldown, so it works out to be an armor decrease of ~100 over the course of 3 minutes. However, when you pile your CDs together then it works the best, because you have your blade flurry, AR, etc all pushing at the same time as the mob is at 0 armor, and thus they all multiply together.
I'll throw my hat in with Xard I recently snagged my own badge and as a sword rogue stacking it with AR/BF/Beserk/EarthStrike/SnD and a Tea...you HAVE to vanish to avoid pulling aggro. Definitely spikes your damage, just wish combat pulses weren't so fast that I could switch it out after it's first use since the 3 minute cooldown is killer.
Also, Chalon's spreadsheet DOES have the badge modeled, but he models it in a very poor way. He prorates the armor reduction over the entire course of the cooldown, so it works out to be an armor decrease of ~100 over the course of 3 minutes. However, when you pile your CDs together then it works the best, because you have your blade flurry, AR, etc all pushing at the same time as the mob is at 0 armor, and thus they all multiply together.
Yet that is how it should be calculated. ;)
For any usable trinket, you have to see what benefit it brings over a longer time, since most fights do take longer than just 1 minute. And for everybody but hunters it is impossible to swap trinkets in combat, therefore you have to stick with that trinket for all of the fight and also therefore you have to measure the effect of that trinket for the entire duration of that fight.
If a fight lasts 30 seconds, the trinket beats the crap out of anything.
If a fight lasts at least 179 seconds, you will have to decide wether its worth using it, by calculating the average gain from that trinket.
I uploaded my spreadsheet for this trinket. It's quick and dirty, and certainly flawed, but I think I got it generally down. It's made from a warrior's perspective. To tailor it for your class just put how often you hit in 30 seconds in the corresponding field.
Since I haven't seen anything close to a proper read on the procrate it's up to you to edit it as well. I've heard everything from 50% to 80% which doesn't help out since it's not a PPM figure. If I had to guess I'd peg it at 20-30 PPM.
Also, Chalon's spreadsheet DOES have the badge modeled, but he models it in a very poor way. He prorates the armor reduction over the entire course of the cooldown, so it works out to be an armor decrease of ~100 over the course of 3 minutes. However, when you pile your CDs together then it works the best, because you have your blade flurry, AR, etc all pushing at the same time as the mob is at 0 armor, and thus they all multiply together.
Yet that is how it should be calculated. ;)
For any usable trinket, you have to see what benefit it brings over a longer time, since most fights do take longer than just 1 minute. And for everybody but hunters it is impossible to swap trinkets in combat, therefore you have to stick with that trinket for all of the fight and also therefore you have to measure the effect of that trinket for the entire duration of that fight.
If a fight lasts 30 seconds, the trinket beats the crap out of anything.
If a fight lasts at least 179 seconds, you will have to decide wether its worth using it, by calculating the average gain from that trinket.
Well it was more my point that all of the damage it does is a multiplier, and thus works best when stacked together. I don't think that is properly reflected in the implementation of the badge in the spreadsheet, because if you use BF+AR+Badge together, the results will all multiply one another and thus produce a lot more together than looked at separately. On top of that, because of armor being non-linear in a sense, modelling the benefit of -1200 specifically, and then averaging that over the course of 180 seconds makes more sense than just -1200 armor * uptime / 180 seconds, giving -1xx armor over the course of 3 minutes.
Or maybe I'm wrong, its really late so I can't check the math right now, but I think its more complicated than shown in the spreadsheet. Of course, making a minimodule that works with stacking all the cooldowns together seems a bit beyond the scope of most dps models, and I'm more saying this to let people know that I find this to be one of the best dps trinkets in the game.
From my experience, it's a very situational trinket.
Sometimes I don't even get all the 6 buffs within the 30 seconds, sometimes it takes only 10 seconds for all 6 buffs to apply.
Yet most times I think I have noticed that I have roughly 6 seconds left with the full 6 buffs applied, so that leaves around 4 seconds for one buff. This is being a rogue, wielding daggers and using SnD before activating the trinket (currently don't have blade flurry).
The best use for that trinket is on fights where the mob dies soon after the duration of the trinket has finished.
So that would be on fights that don't take much longer than 1.5 min, 4.5 min, etc. Basically every fight that "cuts" down the cooldown of the trinket.
Another good usage is fights where you need burst damage, such as C'Thun.
But in conclusion, that trinket is very dependant on luck. Hunters are gg anyways.
For me it's been most useful on fights where you need a single controlled burst, my guild only killed Huhuran a few weeks ago and using it just before 30% made a huge difference.
Combining it with tea, cold blood + prep to get two 5 point evis crits on a mob with close to 0 armour gives quite impressive burst damage.
You know what would make you do more damage? A decent pve build ;)
On topic though, i've been debating getting one of these for a while, but with KoS now available from maex, im thinking of hanging on for that and letting this go to hunters instead. Do you think its of greater benefit (damage wise) to a hunter than a rogue?
For me it's been most useful on fights where you need a single controlled burst, my guild only killed Huhuran a few weeks ago and using it just before 30% made a huge difference.
Combining it with tea, cold blood + prep to get two 5 point evis crits on a mob with close to 0 armour gives quite impressive burst damage.
You know what would make you do more damage? A decent pve build ;)
On topic though, i've been debating getting one of these for a while, but with KoS now available from maex, im thinking of hanging on for that and letting this go to hunters instead. Do you think its of greater benefit (damage wise) to a hunter than a rogue?
Seeing that hunters can swap trinkets in combat, yes.
I've never played a rogue, so forgive me - Can rogues not leave a trinket queued in itemrack or something, then vanish to have it instaequiped? Or does it not take them out of combat at all?
I already answered this, but Vanish rarely breaks being in combat (due to the combat pulse) anymore. However, it always drops aggro, so it has some use (and removes hunter's mark in 1.12).
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As a hunter who uses Badge regularly, I feel this item represents a larger raid damage increase in the hands of a class that can use it, swap it, and pop it back in when the cooldown is 30 seconds off. My guild were somewhat shocked when I won the first one, and later when I won Jom Gabbar... until they saw what use I put them to compared to what a rogue could do with them.
I don't really have too much interest in KoS though... I regard that as mostly a Rogue trinket since it has static stats and the haste portion can benefit a rogue who uses other timers concurrently.
08/10/06, 2:11 PM
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