My guild is currently trying to take down the Twin Emps and we usually get them down to 72% and then all the warriors/locks die. The healers claim that they are out of mana around 90%. Now i proposed a healing rotation but they said that since the warriors are getting hit for so much that one less healer and he could die. (We have 2 warlocks in SR gear and 2 warriors in full wrath) Any suggestions for how to solve this problem?

How many healers are you taking to the encounter?
What is the quality of their gear?
What consumables are they using, with how much frequency?
Who are you assigning various healers to heal?

Use DMs or SW Stats and find out what effective healing and overhealing look like. If your healers are going OOM after 10% then you probably have some (many) morons with like 75% overhealing. 3 healers can easily keep up a Vek'nilash tank through anything, and one healer can keep up a high-SR warlock on Vek'lor.

Mana efficiency. You cannot heal through this fight spamming flash heal, and you cannot heal through this fight without canceling heals when required.

They should pick up some mana regen consumables and then find a slow, efficient heal to constantly spam. I personally use heal 2 almost always, propping up with a flash heal for unbalancing strike if it's required, or the warlock takes big bolts. Damage on emps can be spiky, but if everyone is constantly dishing out heals you can recover pretty fast--and things like swiftmend and NS heals just shore things up even better. If people are using efficient spells and mana potions where needed, you shouldn't need to "rotate" healers at all; the idea is that each healer can individually keep healing for the 15 mins or however long it takes you.

No better time than the present for your healing group to learn how to manage mana!

There was a pretty lengthy thread about the encounter here: http://forums.elitistjerks.com/viewtopic.php?id=6590

But on top of that, healing rotations aren't the best thing for this encounter, most the time you need all your healers smart healing the MT due to burst damage. A healer dropping to regen 15 secs or so occasionally isn't going to kill you however. Check their overhealing see who is doing it and try to teach them to cancel heals when not neccessary. More than anything its an encounter for smart healing, not button mashers who will spam heals no matter the life bar of the MT.

Maybe use flask of Titans on tanks.

That checks out for unpreparedness, which means the error is in gameplay. TheRealJon, Wibble, and Gurgthock's suggestions are where you should go from here. It sounds like you need to have a talk (read: the beatings will continue until morale improves) with your healers.

We usually have a paladin keep the tanking lock alive with sparse help from the priests on that side when the lock is caught in a bug explosion or blizzard. This lets the priests take a breather for a few seconds outside the 5sr.

But yeah, using efficient heals and canceling them when necessary is huge. We still have a couple flash priests that have huge over-healing and are OOM constantly ~~ gotta train'm up! =)

You don't need healing rotations for Emps. You do need people being mana efficient though. How are you splitting up your healers? If we have 15 healers, it goes like this for us:

6 healers on each side healing the respective tanks.
1 primary healer for the bug tank.
1 backup healer for the bug tank, heals DPS otherwise
1 healer for the DPS.

Those 6 healers on each side can go for efficiency... i.e. me as a priest I'm using heal rank 2 almost exclusively, using shield/flash for unbalancing strikes or if there's been some spike damage.

If everyone is spamming flash heal, then yeah, they're going to go OOM pretty fast. This is not the fight for it.

Edit: should probably mention we don't have a warlock tank the magic emp outside of the initial pull.

That won't make much difference as far as Healer Mana Consumption, will it, considering that the damage DOES need to be healed eventually? Maybe it will allow for you to put one or two tank healers outside of the 5 second rule for regen purposes, mitigating spike (ie. less spammy-healy-tanky), though, which could be a good thing.

In my experience, the main place where healers lose mana is when the tank transition between the melee Emp and the caster Emp doesn't work out as well as planned. With better execution on the teleports (Warlock w/ felhunter gets the caster immediately, and mitigates a lot more of the shadow damage) you'll find yourself using a lot less mana.

But yeah, you really need to use mana regen consumables on this fight, and you really need to make sure your healers are healing efficiently. Don't get too jumpy about the spike damage, use efficient heals, and figure out how to time them such that you don't waste too much mana (And yes, I know that seems very obvious at first glance, but still).

In other words: I think it just comes down to practice. Grind it, and you'll get it eventually.

My raid group recently got our first Emps kill after a fairly long learning period, and here were some of the things we did sequentially to help out:

1. Max consumables, on everyone. We've had shit luck with tank drops in BWL, so even as MT I'm still in 6/8 wrath, and my unbuffed HP is only 6650. I was 11k buffed on our kill (w/ BoK, we're alliance). We used warrior tanks only and were still able to have our casters DPS even with a warrior tanking casty with proximity aggro only.

2. Had 5 healers spamming on each tank, constant heals. Only one rotated out at a time. SPREAD OUT so they don't get blown up by bugs or blizzarded. They need to leave the blizzard, and they need to RUN out, not back up. A lot of our (numerous) 90 percent wipes occurred because healers were not dealing well with the blizzard. Give them specific spots to stand, tell them exactly where to run to get out of the blizzard, and spread them out. Once they learn to deal with the Blizzard, and avoid bugs, the fight gets to be clockwork (or did for us).

3. Had one Paladin healing healers on each side. Our pallies heal quite well, and would help keep the tank topped off and then save any healers that got caught in the blizzard. MT healers do not heal themselves, ever, in our strategy. They spam the tanks and trust the second healer to keep them up.

4. Healers need to rank down. I assume they are doing this, but you need to find the MOST efficient healing rank that keeps the MT alive. Having a big MT health pool makes this much simpler.

5. As I said, we're alliance, so we have BoK and BoW, so clearly that's easymode for a mana-intense fight ;-). Nonetheless, our healers were burning a LOT of Major Mana Pots, so you better plan on it.

Good luck.

The way we used to set up healing for this fight, prior to Blizzard breaking the Vek'linash behavior was: both sides had a Warrior + Warlock, and we fielded a relatively balanced 16 healers. We had 4 assigned to the Warrior, and 3 assigned to the lock + 1 to their pet (they were Soul Linked). We never had mana issues, and all healers alternated between healing for 30s and not healing for 30s...additionally of course cancelling heals when it wasn't needed. Never had mana issues as a cause of death.

Now we just do 2 warriors in the corners, though.

We tried twin emps for one night and decided to wait until we got our 2nd mt geared well enough (10 weeks? of bwl clearing, 1 wrath bp 1 shoulders, raggy from start of february, 2 wrath leggings and our 2nd mt wasnt even lvl 60 when second one dropped. ) Problem in healing wasnt with veknilash it was with teh caster. veknilash dmg is spiky yes, but he hits like a baby. Gearing our other sr warlock also to test tanking with warlock, coming back for twins after anub and razu dead. :)

So you use 3 healers on Warrior and 1 healer on Warlock o_O

Interesting.

Use stoneshield pots to reduce the overall damage spikes on the melee emp if its a problem.

all healers need to learn to stand at max healing range from the caster emps tank because then only the tank can eat a blizzard.

-definitely- use flask of the titans on the tanks because the damage DOES need to get healed up, but with more hp to work with you don't have to do it as fast. The burst damage from the melee emp can be pretty high, and without flasks I'm not sure that you can keep the hps fast enough to cover up for all possible burst damage.

We use just two warriors btw, and though we spend a lot of mana healing for the caster emp we find it works out well because there's less to go wrong on the transition. If needed have your tanks use a lot of their tier shadow res pieces (wrath belt, gloves, might shoulders, etc) which will keep their tank stats up.

I guess if you -really- had trouble with the caster still, you could try the obsidian BP that you can craft to absorb some of the damage, but at the same time that's a lot of lost tanking stats so it might be too much.

I think you misunderstood..., I wasn't saying that you shouldn't use flask of the titans, in fact, anyone who suggested such a thing would be a complete idiot. I'm merely saying that it wouldn't solve the issue of healer mana consumption, other than perhaps allowing SLIGHTLY more time outside the 5 second rule. That wouldn't help an "out of mana at 72%" issue.

I have to agree with Kytrarewn that although a Flask of Titans will ease healing slightly, Max HP doesn't appear to be the problem.
Even under the assumption that slower heals are three times as efficient, the healers would still have run OOM during the course of that fight.

Honestly I'm not sure these suggestions make a ton of sense atm. For someone in your position, you definitely should not be listening to the people who say "you don't need a flask" or "you don't need rotations". You don't need either of them, but from where you're coming from, you definitely want to use both of them.

If you are warlock tanking, then caster emp damage is extremely minimal. If you go with a 6/4 rotation (6 on melee, 4 on caster), you have extreme overkill on the healing while still allowing 2 ppl to regen at any given time. This is quite sustainable even with a couple fhr7 spammers.

Downranking and relying on healr2 works extremely well once you're well geared. However I'm going to assume that not all your healers have 500+ heal, and until you hit that point heal r2/r4 really aren't viable options. If you try to copy the strats of guilds that have farmed emps/ct for months then you'll die miserably, becuase you won't have the efficiencies that the extremely-well-geared guilds do.

I think two priests and a druid or paladin for each melee tank (6 total) is ideal. Then priest and paladin for each magic tank (another 4), one for bug tanks, one for dps, and one on swing (bug or dps) or they can take over for a healer that dies.

So that is 13 healers. More than that is pretty useless. Any extra I usually assign to the melee tanks. The trick is that when the tank that the healers are assigned to is not tanking they are getting mana back. Of course the only damage that our dps takes is from uppercut. We do not have any of our mages/locks on the caster mob. They only kill bugs.

This is what we do too.

This fight is entirely possible with 10 Healers (we have done it like this; Alliance side) if everyone is on top of their game. 4 on each side and 2 in the middle are enough to heal with tanks that: a) run away from bugs, b) run out of blizzard and c) have full tier2 or better.

Scale the number of healers up on each side if your gear is not tier2 equivalent.

Note: We use the Warrior-Only tactic and consumables are: good food (nightfin soup), brilliant mana oil and mageblood. Mana Potions are there when people start to suck because they think this fight is "easy as hell". Frost Protection pots are always good for healers because it prevents dying from blizzard.

If you position correct all the time NO BLIZZARDS should happen. If people don't do it correctly, you'll get blizzards quite often and it gets more difficult. That's when you need to have the frost pots ;)

Using warrior tanking, we usually assign 5 healers per tank (shaman, 2-3 priests and druid or two) with rest of healers healing DPS, bug tanks and helping out with emp tanks. As far as consumables go, I usually use 2-3 combat mana pots along with Mageblood potion, with occasional Major Mana pot depending on availability of Innervates.

I think most important thing as healer is to recognize patterns in incoming damage. Melee emperor is all about burst damage, BWL geared tank doesn't take that much damage between Unbalancing Strikes which allows using big efficient heals with plenty of time spent outside 5 second rule. When using warrior tanking, around 60-70% of damage tank takes comes from caster emperor. While caster twin has very high DPS, it is very predictable and steady source of damage on tank, best healed using mana efficient lower rank heals.

It helps to coordinate in your tank healing group which kind of healing you will do. Personally, I have bit higher amount of +healing than our other healers but no full Transcedence for 8 piece bonus renew, so I mostly spam heal rank 2 during caster emperor and slow down during melee emp, concentrating on keeping renew up and shielding tank after Unbalancing Strike. Other priests in our guild prefer different approaches, some swear by 8 piece Transc and GH, while others are all about mana/5 and different ranks of Flash Heals. Along with differences in way druids and shaman heal we have always stream of smaller heals and HoTs on tank, with 1-2 healers dropping big heals during burst damage.