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Old 08/10/06, 9:40 PM   #16
Auphi
Von Kaiser
 
Murloc Warlock
 
Hakkar
Originally Posted by Ozymandius
Originally Posted by Aphyrax
That is true. However, there is also the counter argument that if you get for example stunned/punted/have to move/whatever while the trinket is up you lose part of the bonus. How that works out depends completely on the boss as you noted, so it is very difficult to capture in a simple formula.
Correct. Three specific examples from my raid last night include:
-Pop ToEP; Battleguard Sartura immediately comes flying across the room at you and you are forced to run away and eventually blink, losing the entire buff duration.
-Pop ToEP with huhuran at 31%; You are immediatly silenced with no ice block up, and lose half of the buff.
-Pop ToEP; Vek'lor decides that your elite sniping position on the stairs is an excellent place to cast blizzard; you blink, strafe to narrowly miss an exploding bug, and are forced to sit on the stairs and bandage, losing the entire buff duration.
I've given it some thought, and I disagree with your counter-argument.
Given completely random situations, taking the times you need to move into account, 1/6 of those times will be eating into ToeP activation time. The remaining 5/6th of the time you need to move, you are waiting for your ToeP to cool down. These situations allow your ToeP to get "free" recharge time, and should balance the situations where you are forced to move during activation.

In other words: For every situation you can remember where you were forced to move early and waste activation time, there were likely five (all average caveats apply) situations where you had to move and gained free cooldown time on your ToeP.
(Obviously it's a little silly to think the game is out to get you, and forces you to move only when you have the ToeP active)

With this in mind, I think my argument that you get more activations than averages will show, stands. I.e. You get 1 full activation for a 45 second encounter (not the 1/2 that averages imply) and you get 2 activations during a 100 second encounter (not 1.11).

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Old 08/10/06, 9:42 PM   #17
Lord BEEF
Soda Popinski
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Aphyrax
In conclusion, ToA is surprisingly powerful given that is the most accessible trinket. ZHC is probably a little bit underpowered given its ilvl (it was overnerfed - they should have lowered its PvP effectiveness without reducing its PvE power). MQG is situational but where it shines it really shines. In the long run (level 70) it will surpass all the other trinkets since it scales. And finally, the little blue reed can hang with all the big purple boys.
The balancing on ZHC probably also is based on what other classes can do with it as well. For healing classes it's superior to the others since it has a massive boost to healing (though ToA does as well) and the values of the trinkets probably vary for warlocks as well because of Dots.

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Old 08/10/06, 9:47 PM   #18
Aphyrax
Great Tiger
 
Tauren Druid
 
Tichondrius
Originally Posted by Auphi
I've given it some thought, and I disagree with your counter-argument.
Given completely random situations, taking the times you need to move into account, 1/6 of those times will be eating into ToeP activation time. The remaining 5/6th of the time you need to move, you are waiting for your ToeP to cool down. These situations allow your ToeP to get "free" recharge time, and should balance the situations where you are forced to move during activation.

In other words: For every situation you can remember where you were forced to move early and waste activation time, there were likely five (all average caveats apply) situations where you had to move and gained free cooldown time on your ToeP.
(Obviously it's a little silly to think the game is out to get you, and forces you to move only when you have the ToeP active)

With this in mind, I think my argument that you get more activations than averages will show, stands. I.e. You get 1 full activation for a 45 second encounter (not the 1/2 that averages imply) and you get 2 activations during a 100 second encounter (not 1.11).
You are correct to some extend. The point, however, still stands that with an activated trinket you are more susceptible to random chance. That is, one time you get the full bonus, the next time you get nothing. Even if in the long run you come out ahead, that unpredictability is undesirable, because barely beating a boss twice is better than wiping horribly one time and totally destroying it the next.

Further, the problem I have noticed is that you cannot always activate the trinket when it is up. It might be too early for that extra DPS, or you are on the move. Thus, I found that the effective cooldown is usually longer than the listed one. This counteracts the effect that you are describing which amounts to "you get the first cooldown for free in a boss fight". Which effect comes out ahead? That depends on the situation and the boss.

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Old 08/10/06, 9:51 PM   #19
Aphyrax
Great Tiger
 
Tauren Druid
 
Tichondrius
Originally Posted by Lord BEEF
Originally Posted by Aphyrax
In conclusion, ToA is surprisingly powerful given that is the most accessible trinket. ZHC is probably a little bit underpowered given its ilvl (it was overnerfed - they should have lowered its PvP effectiveness without reducing its PvE power). MQG is situational but where it shines it really shines. In the long run (level 70) it will surpass all the other trinkets since it scales. And finally, the little blue reed can hang with all the big purple boys.
The balancing on ZHC probably also is based on what other classes can do with it as well. For healing classes it's superior to the others since it has a massive boost to healing (though ToA does as well) and the values of the trinkets probably vary for warlocks as well because of Dots.
That is probably the reason but I disagree with the logic behind it. They put feral AP on some weapons and treated it like a free stat because you never use feral AP and for example spell power at the same time. Yes you can heal and DPS at the same time with ZHC, but how often do you do that, especially in PvE?

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Old 08/10/06, 10:01 PM   #20
flyinfungi
Piston Honda
 
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Blood Elf Mage
 
Wyrmrest Accord
How about Mind Quickening Gem. I use that all the time but feel it wasted due to its just me wasting mana faster and only 1 or 2 uses during a fight. Im trying to find the most damage effecient item over a long period of time.

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Old 08/10/06, 10:10 PM   #21
Fury
Glass Joe
 
Murloc 
 
The problem with all this trinket math is that it really is not representative of many real raiding situations.

1) there is downtime between pulls etc that lets some of the longer CD trinkets contribute more

2) there is many fights that require a concentrated burst of focused DPS which also skews things in favor of more explosive trinkets like MQG and ToEP

I personally have tried them all and find the ToEP to be the ideal trinket. The 90 sec CD is just right to provide the sustained damage when needed for fights like Patchwerk, but the 175 +dmg provides the perfect punch for when you need that burst damage on things like Huhuran or gargoyles or seeding an ignite roll etc.

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Old 08/10/06, 10:11 PM   #22
Aphyrax
Great Tiger
 
Tauren Druid
 
Tichondrius
Originally Posted by flyinfungi
How about Mind Quickening Gem. I use that all the time but feel it wasted due to its just me wasting mana faster and only 1 or 2 uses during a fight. Im trying to find the most damage effecient item over a long period of time.
The the MQG equivalent column. It tells you at what level of damage MQG becomes superior to the other trinkets.

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Old 08/11/06, 12:36 AM   #23
Ozymandias
Von Kaiser
 
Murloc Mage
 
Gorgonnash
Originally Posted by Auphi
Originally Posted by People
Stuff
I've given it some thought, and I disagree with your counter-argument.
Given completely random situations, taking the times you need to move into account, 1/6 of those times will be eating into ToeP activation time. The remaining 5/6th of the time you need to move, you are waiting for your ToeP to cool down. These situations allow your ToeP to get "free" recharge time, and should balance the situations where you are forced to move during activation.

In other words: For every situation you can remember where you were forced to move early and waste activation time, there were likely five (all average caveats apply) situations where you had to move and gained free cooldown time on your ToeP.
(Obviously it's a little silly to think the game is out to get you, and forces you to move only when you have the ToeP active)

With this in mind, I think my argument that you get more activations than averages will show, stands. I.e. You get 1 full activation for a 45 second encounter (not the 1/2 that averages imply) and you get 2 activations during a 100 second encounter (not 1.11).
Oh, don't get me wrong, I certainly find ToEP to be the superior choice in the vast majority of situations (hence having it equipped on those fights). I'm just saying that for those two items (or Eye of the Beast at a certain gear level) you have to weigh the strengths and weaknesses of each item with consideration to the fight. Early Battleguard attempts come to mind (before your group is able to control the fight with ease) as a situation in which one might give the blue some serious thought.

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Old 08/11/06, 4:32 AM   #24
junin
Glass Joe
 
Murloc Mage
 
Test
Originally Posted by Fury
The problem with all this trinket math is that it really is not representative of many real raiding situations.

1) there is downtime between pulls etc that lets some of the longer CD trinkets contribute more

2) there is many fights that require a concentrated burst of focused DPS which also skews things in favor of more explosive trinkets like MQG and ToEP

I personally have tried them all and find the ToEP to be the ideal trinket. The 90 sec CD is just right to provide the sustained damage when needed for fights like Patchwerk, but the 175 +dmg provides the perfect punch for when you need that burst damage on things like Huhuran or gargoyles or seeding an ignite roll etc.
ToEP is probably one of the worst trinkets to use at patchwerk :) as reed+tear+mqg+rotd are all superior in that fight

The only nobrainer trinket there is for all fights is tear the rest all have their fights where they outshine the rest.

ToEP, best allround trinket with alittle punch. especially nice for trash where it cooldowns between pulls
MQG, best burst damage trinket. Also when your fully buffed (around 900dam) it will outshine even rotd, especially if the fight is around 6-7mins
reed, stable avg damage.

botom line is you will always have to swap around your trinkets.

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Old 08/11/06, 7:01 AM   #25
 Nemesis
Global Warming lets me bike more.
 
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Nemmie
Blood Elf Paladin
 
No WoW Account (EU)
and bottomline 2 is that when doing theorycraft its best to do your calculations on a 'perfect conditions' basis
otherwise it becomes horribly confusing and turns into a 'but in this situation...' back-and-forth thing which is kinda stupid, every trinket is good in a certain situation, its up to people to use their brain and pick the right one for the job

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