I posted this on the R&D forums but these forums have always attracted more intelligent discussion so I decided to ask this question here:

I've noticed a trend in Wow in that high end elite PvE guilds are almost exclusive to PvP servers nowadays which seems contrary to logic. It would seem that people who were more focused on PvE progression would roll on a PvE server and the PvP kiddies would rush to the PvP servers, but current progression doesnt reflect that.

You can ask anyone to name who they think are the top 5 horde or alliance guilds in the game and chances are they are all on PvP servers with maybe two or three specific exceptions such as Risen, Surreal, Juggernaut .

Is it that more harcore players tend to be attracted to PvP servers? Or is it that playing on a pvp server and having to quest in Ganklethorn Vale (TM) prepares you better for dynamic encounters, in a way breeding "better" players through the added difficulty of leveling up vs on a PvE server? I'm interested on peoples views/thoughts on this subject.

This also begs the age old question, Is someone who is great at PvP great at PvE?

I believe it's mostly pre-selection. Hardcore gamers tend to roll PvP. There are many that do choose PvE servers, but it's likely to be the minority.
I highly doubt grinding through STV (or any contested zone) contributes to it. Organized PvP might contribute a small effect in that it prepares players to have better environmental awareness and mobility than the 'average' MC raider.
It's mostly pre-selection though, at least in my opinion.

Here are Neh's (Blizzard CM) thoughts on PvP servers http://blue.cardplace.com/cache/wow-general/9430224.htm.

I also feel it is mostly pre-selection. Hardcore type players would rather have the PvP option.

I think it's the fact that PvP servers better motivate players to continually get better gear. Getting jacked over and over on your way to MC or BWL because your gear is worse motivates the player to raid in a consistent manner so they aren't at such a gear disadvantage. Whereas on a PvE server other than the pride in beating the encounter or pride in getting new gear there really is no other motivation for consistently raiding.

I don't think it has much to do with being "hardcore" or not, rather what you enjoyed in the previous game(s) you played that designates what type of server to roll a character on. For me, coming from SWG (and it being my first "MMO") rolling on a PvP server was a no brainer. Considering WoW was madeout to be the best PvP game to date, I was looking forward to doing nothing but PvP. Archimonde was the clear choice, and for the first few months up until BG's hit it was rather fun. Once things got stale, though, PvE held my interest and that's what I've been doing ever since. I've pretty much resigned myself to the fact that WoW PvP will never be what it was hyped up to be, but I'm still hoping cross-server battlegrounds get me interested in PvP again.

I'm also one who believes that a good player is a good player in every facet of the game, and that a sub-par player tends to be that way all around as well. Don't think one style of play makes a person any better or worse.

PvP servers are not PvP optional. PvE servers have optional PvP, where on PvP servers it's mandatory. PvE servers don't have a lack of PvP.

I can't speak to the quantity of high end guild distribution on pve vs pvp servers; I don't have that kind of data. However, 3 exceptions out of 5 guilds doesn't really seem overwhelming numbers to me. Nor does "asking anybody" usually produce factual answers.

PvE ftw here.

Think of everytime you've just wanted to get something over with and done as fast and painless as possible.

...Now add getting interrupted by tards trying to gank you every now and then and imagine the delay it puts on you. and not just in the fight itself, you constantly have to keep a decent amount of mana and health so you can at least put up a fight so no more grinding on 20% health/mana.

....Also the downtime from dying as a lock does my head in.

I am on a PvE server and feel like the whole PvE=carebear thing is pretty ridiculous. On the PvP server that my lowbie rogue is on there is actually less pvp than on my main PvE server. Not only that, but I get lots of phone calls and have a wife, so being able to get up to go do something for a couple minutes without getting ganked is nice.

Are you saying he is using circular logic or using the expression incorrectly?

Sorry I wasnt more clear what I meant is that those guilds are the only guilds that reside on PvE servers who have any chance at all of making someones list of the best PvE guilds anywhere, not that they would make everyones list. As for asking anybody most raiders with a knowlege of other guilds would produce very similar lists of who they believe to be Elite guilds considering that the information is readily available. I did not mean to infer that you would ask such a question in The Barrens chat.

for every single occasion where one can paint a perfect, honerable, pvp kill, there's 20 bnet kids that get their jollies on by griefing people. I would have liked to play on a pvp server, but i followed my friends to kilrogg.

looking back, pve was a good choice, because i really don't want to deal with the occasional ganking at inconsiderate times.

if i wanted to play, i flag up in front of UBRS of Naxx, there's always some fun to be had there, and the pvp from that is usually good natured.. more of a spectator sport than anything.

I'm just nitpicking :) What I was really trying to get at is that real evidence should be presented that this phenomenon exists before we wonder why it exists. I don't exactly keep up with which guilds are where progression-wise, so I don't know if it's true or not. My release PvE server has only a few guilds past the twin emps. I'd also be interested in why most high-end guilds are on PvP servers if it's true.

I was using the expression incorrectly I aplogize =(.

Well if we just look at the list of US guilds that have reported kills of Loatheb, out of 12 guilds there is only 1, Surreal, on a PvE server.

PvE realms are PvP realms with some stuff removed. Motivated people want to experience a game in entirety and not piecemeal. Said people then progress into raiding by default as it is the most skill-based activity.

Done.

Ah, thank you. That's cool.

Is this a troll?

Not to say the op is wrong in his statements, but there are more than 3 "competitive" guilds on PvE servers. The fact is the majority of the epeen swingers play on PvP servers (no offense to those that do). Just two more examples for you, Fury and Afterlife both play on PvE servers and are up there in the world firsts department, you just don't hear much out of them because they don't have someone rushing to the realm forums to post "WORLD FIRST BLAHBLAHBLAH" when they kill things.

For some people, actions speak louder than words.


edit. Just to clarify again, I'm not saying people who play on PvP servers are arrogant mouthbreathing fuckups, just that the majority of arrogant mouthbreathing fuckups play on PvP servers.

I suspect that what Saramin was trying to express could be better phrased as "raiding is the activity where rewards are most closely correlated with skill."

I think that you'd have to define 'high-end guild' before you can have any meaningful discussion about this topic. Something unambiguous, like "8 bosses in naxx down" or "killed Loatheb" or "killed Patchwerk", "killed Ragnaros" or "has more than 40 nelf members" - whatever - something that defines a guild as unambiguously a member of the 'high-end' set.

Certainly 'popular' guild doesn't cut it. I can think of a significant number of PVE server guilds who have at least 8 naxx bosses killed, and at least one with 11 - none of which have been mentioned in this thread.

High end as in double digit boss kill counts, and there are also alot of guilds on pvp servers who don't report their kills. Some such as Nurfed or Retribution dont even update their website. My point is that there are very few PvE guilds that have gone that far and you would have a hard time finding a handfull of them versus the 30 or so PvP server guilds up there. To my knowlege there is roughly the same number of pvp servers as pve and populations are somewhat even.

I'm basically asking why the average skill level is that much better on PvP servers and the responses so far have been pretty good.

Another thing we need to clarify is that raid progression isn't all about skill. The guilds that raid 30 hours a week are going to be further along than guilds that raid 12 hours a week. It would also be helpful to know what the total population balance is between pvp and pve players, as that could also have a lot to do with it.

Saramin has been up for quite some time and mangles words. Sorry.

From what I recall of WoW's launch there was a definite sense, not that PvE realms would be more focused in that direction, but that basically it was a trimmed-down version of the game. It's where you went if you didn't like the trammels of forced social interaction at the prompting of a dagger, the better to focus on "content." As a very general rule of thumb, if the corpse-camping rogue twenty levels above you is an irritation worthy of a reroll (keep in mind all pve progression of any value is in sharded instances) then it may be that other raid impediments such as drama/cockblocked content/consumable farming prove too much to stomach as well. In the end, irritation is equal-opportunity.

Inequity happens. Getting ganked by two rogues sucks. Beating your head against prefix C'Thun sucks in precisely the same way. It's the little death of circumstance conspiring against you. People on PvP realms tend to be more of a fatalistic bent and weather the lean months better.

As with any discussion concerning such a subject, everything has been couched in wide-sweeping terms. No lynchings please.

While the differences in the actual servers is very little, playing both PvE and PvP does in my opinion make you a much more well rounded player and ultimately better at both activities, and those who were really interested in both activites rolled on PVP servers.

For example, one time we had just barely killed Ouro and there were like 5 people left alive with a lot of scarabs up. The scarabs made quick work of our remaining healers and the remaining 4 scarabs all ran after Zibro. He perfectly times and aims an iron grenade which buys him enough time to land a howl of terror and the scarabs despawned before being able to reach him again. That's shit you just don't learn in UBRS or MC.