I've been browsing here for a while, but in all the hunter discussions I must have missed any direct math comparisons between Survival and Marksman spec. So I started doing one myself. So far I've only done auto-shot stats but I'm wondering if I haven't made a mistake somewhere along the way, as my Survival spec numbers (when stealing buffs from MM) come out higher than Marksman, and I had thought the opposite would be true, although Aspect of the Hawk would bump Marksman back on top overall.

Anyways, the numbers:

First we compare self-buffed damage, against the same target, so Survival is leeching a few AP from Imp. HM
Slaying Talents not in calculations as both specs have them.

Marksman Spec Damage
http://www.ctprofiles.net/3217784

Buffs: Trueshot (100 AP), Max. Rank Imp. Hunter's Mark (126 AP), Aspect of the Hawk (120 AP)

Normal Auto-Shot : 453-519

Buffed Auto-Shot : 537-603

Buffed + RWS Auto-Shot : 564-633

Average Buffed + RWS Auto-Shot : 786.7881

(564+633)/2 * (1.00 - 0.242) + (564+633)/2 * 0.242 * 2.3
598.5 * .758 + 598.5 * 0.242 * 2.3
453.663 + 333.1251

Survival Spec Damage
http://www.ctprofiles.net/3217616

Buffs: Max. Rank Imp. Hunter's Mark (126 AP), Aspect of the Hawk (120 AP)

Normal Auto-Shot : 479-542

Buffed Auto-Shot : 539-602

Average Buffed Auto-Shot : 765.331455

(539+602)/2 * (1.00 - 0.2627) + (539+602)/2 * 0.2627 * 2.3
570.5 * 0.7373 + 570.5 * 0.2627 * 2.3
420.62965 + 344.701805

Not a huge difference, but Marksman is better.

Next we'll compare buffed damage, against the same target, both hunter's in the same group, so Survival is leeching
Trueshot Aura and a few AP from Imp. HM

Marksman Spec Damage
http://www.ctprofiles.net/3217784

Buffs: Trueshot (100 AP), Max. Rank Imp. Hunter's Mark (126 AP), Aspect of the Hawk (120 AP),
Kings (43 agi - 86 AP, 0.81% crit), MotW (17 agi - 34 AP, 0.32% crit)

Normal Auto-Shot : 453-519

Buffed Auto-Shot : 566-632

Buffed + RWS Auto-Shot : 594-664

Average Buffed + RWS Auto-Shot : 836.12341

(594+664)/2 * (1.00 - 0.2533) + (594+664)/2 * 0.2533 * 2.3
629 * .7467 + 629 * 0.2533 * 2.3
469.6743 + 366.44911

Survival Spec Damage
http://www.ctprofiles.net/3217616

Buffs: Trueshot (100 AP), Max. Rank Imp. Hunter's Mark (126 AP), Aspect of the Hawk (120 AP),
Kings (60 agi - 120 AP, 1.13% crit), MotW (17 agi - 34 AP, 0.32% crit)

Normal Auto-Shot : 479-542

Buffed Auto-Shot : 605-668

Average Buffed Auto-Shot : 865.86914

(605+668)/2 * (1.00 - 0.2772) + (605+668)/2 * 0.2772 * 2.3
636.5 * 0.7228 + 636.5 * 0.2772 * 2.3
460.0622 + 405.80694

So Survival is coming out ahead when it can steal Trueshot from Marks and because Kings does more for a Survival hunter.

No Imp aspect of the hawk.

Also this has been beaten to death. 5/31/15 > 0/21/30.

Assuming the Marksmanship hunter has 9% hit...

A lot of people will be suprised if they put their own profiles in Lactose's excel and compare Survival Vs. Marksmanship! If you have access to the 3% hit scope this can change things as well.

9% to hit is not that hard to get. 2 ZG Enchants, Neck, at least one Ring should give hit. Your armor should give the other 5%. If not, then there is the 3 to hit scope or DFT, or get another hit ring.

This topic has been overdone, lots of math on this forum on this very topic has shown 5/31/15 wins.

Also, it is poor to assume you can steal TSA from another hunter.

I caution preaching this post as 100% correct just yet. I'm still going through his math, but I have certainly noticed some pretty significant differences in my in game testing. Anyone else delved into it yet?

Edit: The math looks right. Very interesting results. The reason Rhok and Huhu's seem to be equivalent in game, is that for whatever reason (player lag, required movement, incorrect cycle use) the full potential is not acieved. If you look, you see that the spread between an efficient cycle, and a non efficient cycle is very small with Rhok and Huhu's, while very wide (almost 100dps) with the slower xbows. So if you are in an environment where you can perfect his 9 second cycle, you will come out on top. If not, you come out pretty even.

Good information to have when comparing available options.

This has definitely been direclty discussed a million times:

-If the Marks hunter is 0/31/20.
-If the Survival hunter is leeching TSA off of a Marks hunter.
-You're Alliance and have BoK (at least until the expansion), or are Horde with GoA.

Under these conditions, a Survival hunter can put out slightly better damage. The problem is, -most- Marks hunters don't spec 0/31/20... they pick up IAotH and go 5/31/15-- which, as long as we're not sloppy with our +hit, is significantly better. My guild has 1 Survival hunter, who does minor off-tanking/pulling under certain situations (he has higher innate dodge/parry than the rest of us) and leeches TSA on big DPS fights. I suppose it's ok to have just one~


Not that I should talk, I'm 20/31/0-- glass cannon w/pet use. My pet shines on fights like Patchwerk and Razuvious, but my survivability is slightly lower and I can't contribute Entrapment.

I'm actually interested to see how much damage your pet did.

Mine did around 20K I believe in 6 minutes.

The whole point of 5/31/15 is maximum DPS potential. When you take 3 points out of IAoTH then you're taking away from your overall DPS! :)

Unless, of course, those 3 points in +hit are worth more DPS than they are in IAOTH, and you have no way to make them up from items/scope.

(I am not a hunter. They may not be. I wouldn't know.)

Yes, but you can see my reponse was in regards to someone just stating that 5/31/15 > 0/21/30. Grimmarg's response was 2/31/18 > 0/21/30, which really kinda set things off track :D

I'm just trying to fix the misconception that 5/31/15 > 0/21/30 in some circumstances. Stating a build isn't much without the gear to support it.

^^ True enough, Decker.

It really depends on buffs. On Patchwerk with Battle Shout, Trueshot Aura, Juju, Kings, Might, Mark, etc. my pet's DPS can get very high. Through talents and buffs, she has over a 20% crit chance and 20% more damage... On Patchwerk, most hunter pets hit around 20,000 damage like you said if normally buffed. My pet pulls over 30,000, going far higher if outrageously buffed. I'm not certain on these numbers, all I can definitively remember is that my pet's DPS outpaces other similarly-buffed (sans-talents) Hunter pets by about 25-30 DPS.

So, 25-30 DPS on DPS races at the cost of some survivability and Entrapment. Aaand any ability to PvP without being gimp. Though, my pet has become more than just an annoyance...

What is your race and what weapon do you use?

IM troll using bow

are u telling me that +5 bow skills gives +3% chance to hit?

The ranged miss rate against lvl 63 mobs is 8.6%.

With 6% hit, you will miss 2.6% of the time on average.

You are probably doing 1 of 2 things:

1.) not noticing the misses
2.) Spec'd into surefooted, and not adding that to your +hit from gear.

That's what I thought you'd say.

Quite possibly, actually. I still have never seen conclusive testing on this. Everyone with 300 ranged skill reports misses at +8% hit and none at +9%. Everyone with >300 skill reports no misses with lower values of +hit. Can any enterprising troll hunter (or dwarf with a gun I suppose) do some solid testing on this vs. 62s and 63s, wearing different values of +hit until you find the threshold at which misses disappear entirely at 305 skill?

1.) not happening
2.) im marksmanship 5/39/7

cant think of nothing else than +5 bows gives the extra chance to hit which would be ridiculous in my opinion.

How do you spent 39 in marksman? There aren't even 31 good talents.

imp arcane shot imp serpentsting to maximize dps potential (arcane shot is good on vael if u know how to use it)

whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa?

Arcane shot is never good =[

If +5 weapon skill = 3% hit im rerolling. >< (Mutters something obscene about the nerfing of shadowmeld)

In all seriousness tho, someone should test this. I can see it being some value of +hit, but 3% would be pretty huge.

When we first learned Magmadar, our hunters didn't wear much +hit gear -- they gathered stuff like Trueaims, the pants from the satyr in Maraudon, etc., and it had the effect of making their Tranqs never miss. Just throwing that out there.