As my guild's Rogue officer/class-lead, I posted this recently within the guild-forums, and I'd like to garner some opinions from others who have been through this content already and had to deal with these considerations. This past Friday marked our guild's first Twin Emperors kill (big news for a backwater RP server =), so I'm fostering this discussion within-guild in attempt to get opinions out and head off possible drama as we move forward. So with that in mind, I'd like to see thoughts from any hunters, warriors and rogues who have been through these decisions previously, or anyone else coming close to this point.
Thanks!
Heya folks -
I want to get some discussion going about a few upcoming weapon drops, now that we're within striking distance of Naxxramas (and C'Thun!). I think it's a good idea to foster some discussion before something drops and winds up being hotly-contested with ensuing drama. I might be a good idea to expand this to other classes and item types as well as time goes on.
I'd like to get the fury warrior take on 3 items primarily.
This is mainly because I don't know enough about warriors to know what's Hot and what's Not. Note that this discussion ignores ALL drops from Kel'Thuzad, as that's not in any practical reach at this time. So when I say something like "best available" or "best in game", this conditional applies.
Again, my purpose for creating this thread is two-fold.
Firstly, to give other classes some insight on how these items will affect our raiding Rogues.
Secondly, to gain some new knowledge myself on how these items will benefit hunters and warriors.
Exhibit A: Blessed Qiraji Pugio
(I'd also like opinions on the hunter-related rewards for this quest too)
This weapon, and the Harbinger below, both fall into the same category. For a dagger rogue, this will be a very solid upgrade from the Perdition's Blade as a MH backstabbing weapon; in fact, it's the largest single-item upgrade that is attainable at Ergo's current progress for a backstabbing rogue. In addition, the real beauty of this weapon is that once an even larger upgrade drops from C'Thun or in Naxxramas, this becomes one of the Top-2-Best off-hand daggers that's currently in the game. Thus, it will serve an enormously long life in the hands of a rogue, and will not be banked or sharded for a LONG time to come.
This is a trash-mob random drop in Naxxramas. This weapon falls into the exact same category as the Pugio above but is more powerful in both the MH and the OH cases. When a rogue first obtains this, it will almost certainly be an upgrade to the MH backstabbing weapon (unless said rogue has Death's Sting already from C'Thun). When a more powerful MH dagger comes along (Death's Sting or Maexxna's Fang), this will move to the Off-Hand the same way that the Pugio would. This harbinger is the absolute best Off-Hand dagger in the game. The only exception would be a rogue who has both Kingsfall from Kel'thuzad -and- a Death's Sting, but that sort of setup is not even on the radar for anyone at the moment, heh.
This dagger from C'Thun is the undisputed king of backstabbing until a guild can defeat Kel'Thuzad. Maexxna's Fang is a very very close second. I don't think this one warrants much discussion, as I doubt any of our warriors or hunters would honestly take these over a main raiding rogue who needed them. If something like that happened, I think every AQ/Naxx-capable rogue worldwide would die a little inside. ;) One reason behind this being: backstabbing rogues have one weapon choice available, period, end of story. DW-Warriors have a plethora of axes, swords, etc from any of the top-end instances. Hunters melee weapons are only for stats, hence even more options available. Feel free to debate this of course - that's just my take on it.
What is there to say? You're basically correct in most of what you say. Except you don't mention that harbringer of doom is a quite amazing fury warrior OH aswell.
Pugio is good for a fury warrior but harginger beats it out.
Those should be equal priority with maexxn'a/ds as rogue first.
Heres a question, where would you put the hwl daggers in this?
I'd say that the GM/HWL dagger would be very slightly better than the Pugio in the MH, and much worse than the Pugio in the OH (about 1/2 of the upgrade potential).
I'm basing my rankings on the 1.14 version of Chalon's spreadsheet with the gear listed in my "Optimal Raid DPS" profile.
Hunters melee weapons are only for stats, hence even more options available.
The weapons with stats a hunter would want are placed on weapons a rogue / warrior would want, both for +stats and for weapon damage. If I want an upgrade to my current weapons, I have to get weapons wanted by rogues / warriors. Current (and available in terms of progression) weapons I consider an upgrade to what I have: Iblis, Harbinger, Hatchet.
Additional weapons, not available to us at the moment: Kingsfall, Claw of the Frost Wyrm.
Our options aren't as plentiful as you might think; where are the one handers with ~30 DPS and +2% crit, +50 AP? :P
Edit: Currently using Silithid Claw + Fang of the Faceless
Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max
The pugio and harbinger, for a hunter, are primarily weapons we'd pick up to supplement our + to hit. For straight AP and crit, there are several other options that have more AP, like the Hatchet of Sundering Bone, Silithid Claw, or even the ZG weapons Fang of the Faceless and Warblade of Hakkari (Mainhand).
Am I missing something with the pugio compared to the harbringer? 2 more ap, 1 less sta, a fraction less crit (8/57 or whatnot). Same to hit and same to crit. Why not just start giving pugios out to hunters now since rogues are getting 3 better daggers? (provided the drops are good, like for example EJ's have). For a hunter it seems the pugio and harbringer are about equal.
Our options aren't as plentiful as you might think; where are the one handers with ~30 DPS and +2% crit, +50 AP? :P
Heh, indeed. ;)
I know it gets into murky waters when the discussion turns to "yea it's an upgrade, but how MUCH of an upgrade for class A vs class B". The way I see it, the primary benefits to the Harbinger and Pugio are that they're solid backstabbing weapons at the proression-point they become available, not to mention the raw melee/white DPS they provide in either the MH or the OH. These benefits to a rogue's melee damage would, imo, far outstep the few +stat/hit vs. some of previous weapons, like the axes from BWL for example. So when I say plentiful options, I'm making that a somewhat broad range rather than the very top end. Since a few stat points or an extra +hit here and there would (I think?) pale in comparison to the raw DPS in the hands of a melee class - if you're looking at the raid-wide case of getting your DPS up for gut-checks like Patchwerk.
Now, back on the Fury warrior side: I can't, of course, speak from experience on Patchwerk and such, but this leads me to wonder -- do dps-warriors who have done the encounter find themselves having to hold back at all for aggro reasons? Or does the tank usually generate enough threat here to allow a flat-out beatdown? (BoSalvation probably makes a big difference too). If dps-warriors DO wind up holding-back a little here, that's yet more reason to put the first few harbingers in the rogues' hands, I'd think.
Aggro does not work in the classical sense on patchwerk. No dps class has to hold back at all. But, If you want more information, you can easily find spoilers that specifically explain how he works on other sites. I don't that's generally done around here.
As to other encounters though, fury warriors probably have to hold back occasionally, but I can't fully answer that either.. I'm a rogue too :)
Really iTunes? Free downloads while supplies last?
Our options aren't as plentiful as you might think; where are the one handers with ~30 DPS and +2% crit, +50 AP? :P
Edit: Currently using Silithid Claw + Fang of the Faceless
Hell, you don't need to do anything crazy like that even. Take severence, replace strength with agility, either lower the DPS or make it a polearm, and boom, there is your hunter weapon.
I have no idea why they make Severence and then toss hunters the ever-so-shitty Eye of Nerub. We like CRIT, Blizzard.
I'm using Silithid Claw and Fang of the Faceless as well. Hit% isn't a big deal once you have a few pieces of Cryptstalker(or even Dragonstalker) and an accurascope, so I don't see Harbringer of Doom or Pugio really in high hunter demand, unless your hunters are using the shitty Striker's set.
If you aren't a goblin, why not?
If you are a goblin you rule
I wouldn't use the accurascope on my main ranged weapon. I use it on the rhokdelar for resist sets. Best melee weapon setup from Naxx for hunters would be hatchet of sundered bone and Kingsfall. Harbinger would be in the same vein as rogues picking up a harbinger- waiting for something better. The beauty of the harbinger is the ability to farm trash mobs for it. Just get your guys to farm trash mobs while waiting for the main raids to form or on off days. =P (Also good to farm for the cloak as well.)
Hunters melee weapons are only for stats, hence even more options available.
The weapons with stats a hunter would want are placed on weapons a rogue / warrior would want, both for +stats and for weapon damage. If I want an upgrade to my current weapons, I have to get weapons wanted by rogues / warriors. Current (and available in terms of progression) weapons I consider an upgrade to what I have: Iblis, Harbinger, Hatchet.
Additional weapons, not available to us at the moment: Kingsfall, Claw of the Frost Wyrm.
Our options aren't as plentiful as you might think; where are the one handers with ~30 DPS and +2% crit, +50 AP? :P
Edit: Currently using Silithid Claw + Fang of the Faceless
You currently have the best combination possible outside of naxx, and unless you're so "unguildly" that you'd take those you mentioned (except Hatchet which imo is the only acceptable upgrade a hunter could take from naxx), you wouldn't need upgrades from naxx. Kingsfall is probably the single best Hunter one-hander in the game currently, but it's just 10000 times better for a rogue.
If I have learned anything from my time as a GM, it's that loot priority will be days and days of drama as both classes present their sides of the argument, you will never reach a clear decision, and 3 weeks from now as you get your third pugio drop and second harbringer, you'll be asking yourself why you ever bothered.
To the question at hand though, obviously melee weapons with flat DPS upgrades should go straight to fury warriors and rogues except in exceptional circumstances. Hunters can use the stats, but like Nerubian Slavemaker, some classes benefit far more from upgrades in different slots.
Rogues and Fury warriors on Pugios/Harbringers really shouldnt merit much discussion either way, they both get use out of them, they both won't replace either for quite a while if they pick one up. Death's Sting should obviously go rogues for MHs, as well as Maexxenas Fang, IF you care about straight upgrade progression over all else.
XXXXXXXXXXX is probably the single best Hunter one-hander in the game currently, but it's just 10000 times better for a rogue.
Unfortunately that scenario is the story of every hunter's life, ISNT IT AWESOME. Anyways Harbringer is a wierd thing because it really is the best hunter Offhand unless kingsfall drops like candy and all your rogues has it. It pretty much is the only weapon I can see a hunter going for because they should already have a silithid claw main handed and the Maex Fang really blows as a OH (losing the 1 Crit aspect is more negative to DPS than the minor upgrade to attack). Harbringer is a high powered hunter item for multiple reasons (this is kinda a reply to Steel now) it embodies all a hunter needs - Crit - Hit - AGI - Stam. It is probably THE best example of hunter itemization and allows for players to make less sacrifices in gear choices for the + hit needed and do not need surefooted. Thankfully Crypstalker has a lot of + hit and the demand will not be that well demanding from non-armor hit but this is what I would think to see:
Cryptstalker 8 piece- 4 hit (4 total hit)
Harbringer - 1 hit (5 hit)
Drake Fang Talisman 2 hit (7 hit total)
X option
See you COULD wear prestors but at the same time you will want a KT neck the Harbringer just adds up as a great item for that slot for almost ANY fight - especially resist fights and ESPECIALLY fights where you might have to wear resist and tranq. Mind you I wrote half of this post asleep so some of it might not make sense. >_>
I dont' see Kurisu why you don't just offhand the pugio. You get 2 AP but lose 8 points out of 57ish of crit. And lose 1 stamina. So it would make sense there to leave Harbringers to the rogues as it is higher damage than the pugio and take that for the hunters. The rogue gets far more benefit from the 5 more dps that the harbringer gives.
To Kurisu: If I want stamina for a resistance fight, I take my Barb. If I want high ap/crit I would not take Harbinger, 8 agility is not enough to take it from rogues, by far. The one hit... well. There are so many other viable options in naxx - Crypstalker for example - that taking Harbinger just can't be justified. In my oppinion the best possible combination is Hatchet and Kingsfall. Unfortunately Kingsfall is even better than Harbinger for rogues, so I would just go with FotF or Silithid Claw (I have both). Hatchet it fairly good for a fury warrior, and the 8ap upgrade doesn't really justify hunters taking it either. I'd focus on other upgrades first before taking weapons that are so clearly better for other classes. :)
You currently have the best combination possible outside of naxx, and unless you're so "unguildly" that you'd take those you mentioned (except Hatchet which imo is the only acceptable upgrade a hunter could take from naxx), you wouldn't need upgrades from naxx. Kingsfall is probably the single best Hunter one-hander in the game currently, but it's just 10000 times better for a rogue.
Due to low drop rates on Drake Fang Talisman, I still need +2% hit, since I'm at 7% at the moment. Getting 1% hit from for example Iblis (combined with either Harbinger or Hatchet) would be preferable for me.
Of course, I'm not considering taking it over any active melee member that would be using it for DPS purposes ;)
Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max
Hunters melee weapons are only for stats, hence even more options available.
The weapons with stats a hunter would want are placed on weapons a rogue / warrior would want, both for +stats and for weapon damage. If I want an upgrade to my current weapons, I have to get weapons wanted by rogues / warriors. Current (and available in terms of progression) weapons I consider an upgrade to what I have: Iblis, Harbinger, Hatchet.
Additional weapons, not available to us at the moment: Kingsfall, Claw of the Frost Wyrm.
Our options aren't as plentiful as you might think; where are the one handers with ~30 DPS and +2% crit, +50 AP? :P
Edit: Currently using Silithid Claw + Fang of the Faceless
Of course, I'm not considering taking it over any active melee member that would be using it for DPS purposes ;)
And that was exactly my point. But I practically already knew you felt that way. ;)
Personally I've specced 2/31/18 since I don't have drakefang either. I'm trying to get nef's head the next time, I've been passing it to shamans and such enough times now. ;)
I kinda look at it this way. You will find a majority of hunters using either a Brutality Blade, a Hakkari Warblade, or the Silithid Claw in their MH. You will find those lucky enough with a Fang of the Faceless in their offhand. That's really the only 'stat stick' choices they get. Where do they come from? One from MC, two from ZG, and one from AQ40.
When was the last time a rogue got a weapons upgrade? Every instance, there is a "new zomg best!" for rogues.
When Naxx looting time comes around, it's time for some hunter upgrades. Especially as there are massive DPS burns there. Rogues will have weapony from AQ they can use to help them out there. Hunters have stuff from...MC or a 20man instance unless Sartura's been really, really nice.
The problem with your argument is indeed, melee weapons for hunters is a stat stick. Now lets talk about the rogue stat stick, ranged weapons.
When was the last time a rogue got a ranged weapons upgrade? MC (strikers mark is the best weapon for adding dps, ignoring stamina, since you are ignoring stamina on your melee weapons)
When Naxx looting time comes around, it's time for some rogue upgrades. Especially as there are massive DPS burns there. Hunters will have ranged weapony from BWL/AQ they can use to help them out there. Rogues have stuff from...MC
Raid progression ftw here, I'd think.
See the flaw here? If we use your argument, then rogues should be taking Nerubian Slavemaker, the only ranged upgrade to strikers mark. Just because you haven't had an upgrade for 2-3 instances, does not give you priority on items which other classes can use better.
I kinda look at it this way. You will find a majority of hunters using either a Brutality Blade, a Hakkari Warblade, or the Silithid Claw in their MH. You will find those lucky enough with a Fang of the Faceless in their offhand. That's really the only 'stat stick' choices they get. Where do they come from? One from MC, two from ZG, and one from AQ40.
When was the last time a rogue got a weapons upgrade? Every instance, there is a "new zomg best!" for rogues.
When Naxx looting time comes around, it's time for some hunter upgrades. Especially as there are massive DPS burns there. Rogues will have weapony from AQ they can use to help them out there. Hunters have stuff from...MC or a 20man instance unless Sartura's been really, really nice.
Raid progression ftw here, I'd think.
No. For the longest time Perdition's Blade was the best main-hand for dagger Rogues. BWL had a kinda sorta sidegrade that drops from Vael but otherwise not a damn thing. Then AQ comes out, Death's Sting is unveiled. Problem is, it drops at the ass end of the instance. You really can't justify taking melee weapons over melee classes just because your melee weapons are somewhat outdated. That'd be like a Rogue or Warrior claiming fair rights on Slavemaker or Ouro's gun to replace our Striker's Marks and Blastershots. I'm sure that'd fly well with Hunters.
Hunters will have ranged weapony from MC they can use to help them out there.
Fixed this for you. Most hunters have Rhok'Delar, coming from MC. The upgrade for that is on the 4 Horsemen. That'll be a while in coming. One could make the arguement for Huhuran's Stinger, but that's a very, very slight sidegrade to Rhok at best. Why waste the DKP? If you have gun favoring Hunters, they do have an upgrade in BWL, but not one in Naxx (None I know want Toxic Injector over DragonBreath. A few are looking at Ouro's gun). X-Bow hunters get their first real upgrade in BWL (if you can get Chrom to drop Ashje...) and then another in Naxx.
Most hunters I know are happy to give Strikers, Ossy's X-Bow, Heartstriker and Huhuran's Stinger to the melee if they want them.
WTB [A Blizz Dev who understands ranged weaponry and hunters]
There are clear upgrades for most classes in every 40man instance. Hunters would like to be included in that.
08/13/06, 4:41 PM
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