Less "Elite Guilds" come expansion.

08/14/06, 9:52 PM

I just finished reading the thread concerning 10-25man end-game raiding, which made me decide to throw these ideas out.

Come TBC, we all know that end-game raids are being downsized, with less people required to field a team, let alone fill a guild with reserves ect. Now, regardless of whether this is going to shatter old guilds, cause heartache for DnT, or indeed even be as difficult as Naxx is currently, the face of raiding is probably gonna change completely. Not only with less people needed per guild, but also the fact that, after these changes, everyone is on a relatively new footing.

I won't say that Curse's MT in full 9/9 t3 will completely destroy the average new level 70 tank, but the gear gap won't be as severe as it is at the moment. So with everyone on a relatively new plane gearwise, and with an influx of skilled players (either the 15 that hardcore guilds have to cut, or 15 new casual gamers realising they can raid as well), will there be such a clear cut difference in progression?

It seems that anyone with the time and dedication will suddenly gain huge yards on the more hardcore guilds. And, considering that there has been a fairly large chunk (relative to WoW since beta) of raid content announced, are we going to see a overhaul at the top level? Where DnT is not only competing for a world first with Curse, Ret and EJ, but also 50 smaller, new guilds, given that 30 very motivated skilled raiders, come TBC, won't be hard to find? (Assuming that there IS a fallout among guilds and the skilled player pool becomes fairly large).

The main question is, is someone serious about raiding going to be able to find 24 other skill people and become a powerhouse guild to easily?

Morfina · 08/14/06, 10:00 PM

Originally Posted by sammyw

I just finished reading the thread concerning 10-25man end-game raiding, which made me decide to throw these ideas out.

Come TBC, we all know that end-game raids are being downsized, with less people required to field a team, let alone fill a guild with reserves ect. Now, regardless of whether this is going to shatter old guilds, cause heartache for DnT, or indeed even be as difficult as Naxx is currently, the face of raiding is probably gonna change completely. Not only with less people needed per guild, but also the fact that, after these changes, everyone is on a relatively new footing.

I won't say that Curse's MT in full 9/9 t3 will completely destroy the average new level 70 tank, but the gear gap won't be as severe as it is at the moment. So with everyone on a relatively new plane gearwise, and with an influx of skilled players (either the 15 that hardcore guilds have to cut, or 15 new casual gamers realising they can raid as well), will there be such a clear cut difference in progression?

It seems that anyone with the time and dedication will suddenly gain huge yards on the more hardcore guilds. And, considering that there has been a fairly large chunk (relative to WoW since beta) of raid content announced, are we going to see a overhaul at the top level? Where DnT is not only competing for a world first with Curse, Ret and EJ, but also 50 smaller, new guilds, given that 30 very motivated skilled raiders, come TBC, won't be hard to find? (Assuming that there IS a fallout among guilds and the skilled player pool becomes fairly large).

The main question is, is someone serious about raiding going to be able to find 24 other skill people and become a powerhouse guild to easily?

You know, the thing about this is that no matter what gear level we're talking about there is a reason that DnT, Curse and the like are where they are. Those reasons remain unchanged in the expansion, and their past experience, gear and stability will still put them leagues ahead of others.

Do others, theoretically, have a bigger chance of playing catch-up in the expansion ? Yes.
Is it likely to occur ? No.

Guilds are based around leadership, and the amount of people playing WoW with qualities suited to leading a hardcore guild, doesn't necessarily increase in TBC outside of regular player influx. If you split a guild formed for 40-man raids into two, theres absolutely no saying that the second guild will do well at all, even if both guilds maintain 'core' members, if the leadership isn't up to par.

Very few people generally posess the drive, skill and dedication as well as administrative headache that is leading a guild of a certain caliber - It has a lot to do with personality and time investment, and I think you're kidding yourself if you think that you'll find small, unknown guilds crop up all over the place competing in the same league as DnT/Curse/EJ (Since you used them as an example).

To put it a bit more straight-forward: Gear gap or not, DnT would most likely be where they are now even if we all reset to the exact same playing field gear-wise. The addition of new content, new tiers of gear and smaller guilds might give the illusion of the ability to catch up, but reality tends to disagree - Evidence of that can easily be scouted from other MMORPGs and past history. Leadership and devoted, skilled players make the guild not their gear - Anyone in a highend guild will tell you that.

Anglakel · 08/14/06, 11:01 PM

Look at Conquest; gear plays a lot less of a role in progression than most people would have you believe.

Lank · 08/15/06, 5:24 AM

I play on the same server as CQ, who stopped raiding for maybe 6months. They picked up alot of already geared players when they came back, but also the ability to raid 5+ hours every night kind of helps them progress faster than most other guilds.
If my guild had 30+ raid hours available a week, I'm sure we'd be close to them content wise.

Chaotik · 08/15/06, 9:52 AM

Originally Posted by Anglakel

Look at Conquest; gear plays a lot less of a role in progression than most people would have you believe.

You also have to factor in that if you have the time to dedicate , Gearing up doesn't take very long in this game.

Mosh · 08/15/06, 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by Lank

If my guild had 30+ raid hours available a week, I'm sure we'd be close to them content wise.

How long, in raid hours spent, did it take you to get C'thun to phase 2 for instance?

Tuco · 08/15/06, 12:48 PM

I don't think that a guild that is currently 'learning' ZG once a week will wake up on TBC's release, level to 70 hardcore fast all while getting equalizing loot to T3, then spend 4-6 nights a week fighting through BCit with great coordination, high attendence and speed.

However, I expect all of that from DnT and my guild, and, in the end, when we're clearing BCit, the guild that is currently learning ZG will be in their mid sixties.

That being said, guilds will splinter, shed, crumble and split in TBC, new guilds will form from their parts, and instead of 8 guilds working hard in Naxxramas on Mal'Ganis, there will be 12 or so working hard in BCit.

However, those four new ones just will not have the backbone that are formed by having raided for so long together. For most guilds in Naxx, learning a new encounter has become somewhat methodical. They will also be composed mostly of the people that didn't make the "A-Team" for whatever reason, and will generally not be as good as the A-Team players.

I definitely do not expect DnT or my guild to be surpassed by a new comer in the expansion. Perhaps later if that newcomer is one of the rare ones that does very well(My guild was a new comer at one point in time, and has now surpassed those that were established then).

Apparation · 08/15/06, 12:59 PM

The average hardcore raiding guild has ~20-30 great, talented, skilled, determined players. A good deal of lack of progression comes from the other 25-15 retards they carry along with them, just holding them back(horde guilds on alliance dominated servers is the best example of this, the recruiting pool is just horrid). With the 25 man cap, these average hardcore guilds will be in a better position to suceed imo. Will they exceed guilds like DnT? Not likely, will they progress faster than they did previously? Yes, in all likely hood dumping their /afk space monkeys will make a large difference in the quality of their raids.

• Oko · 08/15/06, 1:18 PM

Originally Posted by Apparation

The average hardcore raiding guild has ~20-30 great, talented, skilled, determined players. A good deal of lack of progression comes from the other 25-15 retards they carry along with them, just holding them back(horde guilds on alliance dominated servers is the best example of this, the recruiting pool is just horrid). With the 25 man cap, these average hardcore guilds will be in a better position to suceed imo. Will they exceed guilds like DnT? Not likely, will they progress faster than they did previously? Yes, in all likely hood dumping their /afk space monkeys will make a large difference in the quality of their raids.

So how exactly do you proceed with this? I take it you are in a large guild as well. Not every member of a guild is at the same performance level in terms of raiding, but friendships transcend those boundaries. Take for example your very excellent main tank having a good friend in the guild who happens to consistently be lower than he/she should be on the DPS charts as your best geared rogue. What do you do in that situation? Kick the rogue and your main tank suddenly isn't having much fun anymore... these dynamics happen all the time.

I think people have been slighting this "dump" 15 people thing. Its going to be a lot more involved and difficult than that. Most guilds are after all a community which will have both strong players as well as weak ones; members of a community nonetheless and valued for many different things.

Personally, I think you will see more 45 man guilds going to 60 active raiders rather than "trimming the fat" down to 30. I think that of the guilds that do decide to "trim the fat", very few will remain intact due to the partial feelings for those that were considered liabilities and are consequently no longer with the guild.

• Yuckie · 08/15/06, 1:32 PM

Originally Posted by Oko

Originally Posted by Apparation

The average hardcore raiding guild has ~20-30 great, talented, skilled, determined players. A good deal of lack of progression comes from the other 25-15 retards they carry along with them, just holding them back(horde guilds on alliance dominated servers is the best example of this, the recruiting pool is just horrid). With the 25 man cap, these average hardcore guilds will be in a better position to suceed imo. Will they exceed guilds like DnT? Not likely, will they progress faster than they did previously? Yes, in all likely hood dumping their /afk space monkeys will make a large difference in the quality of their raids.

So how exactly do you proceed with this? I take it you are in a large guild as well. Not every member of a guild is at the same performance level in terms of raiding, but friendships transcend those boundaries. Take for example your very excellent main tank having a good friend in the guild who happens to consistently be lower than he/she should be on the DPS charts as your best geared rogue. What do you do in that situation? Kick the rogue and your main tank suddenly isn't having much fun anymore... these dynamics happen all the time.

I think people have been slighting this "dump" 15 people thing. Its going to be a lot more involved and difficult than that. Most guilds are after all a community which will have both strong players as well as weak ones; members of a community nonetheless and valued for many different things.

Personally, I think you will see more 45 man guilds going to 60 active raiders rather than "trimming the fat" down to 30. I think that of the guilds that do decide to "trim the fat", very few will remain intact due to the partial feelings for those that were considered liabilities and are consequently no longer with the guild.

Trimming the fat is going to be the backbone of marginally successful guilds, becoming progression guilds come TBC, but why wait? Ever since server transfers opened up guilds have been falling flat on their faces left and right, leaving tons of free agent well equipped players to pool from. Fill in and replace your weak spots now, so that when TBC does roll around your already moving in the right direction.

Anglakel · 08/15/06, 1:35 PM

Originally Posted by Chaotik

Originally Posted by Anglakel

Look at Conquest; gear plays a lot less of a role in progression than most people would have you believe.

You also have to factor in that if you have the time to dedicate , Gearing up doesn't take very long in this game.

Well it doesn't now, but pre AQ40 (and to an extent, in the case of tanks, pre naxx) gear was extremely luck based. My guild hasn't seen a bp of wrath in months and only recently got our tanks some shields better than drillborer because of awful luck. I love looking at other guild's dkp pages just to get a sense of what they are working with and am usually astounded by their lack of warlock and hunter loot that we seem to get every god damn week.

That being said, I don't think the guilds blowing the doors down in naxx are lucky in any sense of the word, but no tank drops can make patchwerk a bitch, no priest loot can make maexxena harder than it needs to be, ect. There are only so many bosses you can kill in a week and if the RNG doesn't favor you, then you won't have the ideal gear for the next encounter.