I don't know how much in depth I should really go, at least for the history part, but I guess I'll just say everything. I was in a raiding guild that was stuck on Huhuran for a long time. Our MT/Guild Leader server transferred and joined Deus Vox, and he left us with a /gdisband. ~50% reformed. I like to think that it was the more hardcore ones that reformed. We recruited our friends who were in lesser tiered guilds to join us. In the two months we have been together, we have killed everything to C'thun (except Viscidus), and Instructor Razuvious. We have also completed Echoes of War. We only spent two night in Naxx just for a reward for killing Ouro. Our main focus was C'thun. The attempts on C'thun have been poorly attended relative to everything else. This leads us to where we are now:
Saturday, we finish MC, loot an Eye of Sulfuras (which put the guild at an incredible high), and then immediately after the raid disbands, my main tank (who is the best geared), my most skilled priest (who is the best geared), and my best rogue (who is the best geared BY FAR) all simultaneously /gquit. They server transferred and had been planning it for some time. They didn't feel like telling the guild I guess. They all had ~90% attendance. Today, my best geared and most skilled mage quit the guild (He joined a guild completely equal to us in progress -- they haven't killed Raz, but they have had more quality C'thun attempts). He didn't say anything to anyone either, just random /gquit. Following, my top hunter quit. I have no idea why this hunter quit, he didn't join another raiding guild (yet). The thing that bothered me was that none of them said anything. None of them approached me with any concerns. Certainly they hadn't been happy with our progress on C'thun but neither were the rest of us. We were working and learning together.
So now:
Pretty much the most talented player in five of my eight classes is gone. How do I remedy this/How do I stop it from getting worse? I mean, as nice as it sounds, I don't really think our guild will function the same without these five people who all had around 100% attendance and were the best geared in their respective classes. As a guild leader, I'm just kind of unsure how to handle this. I mean, personally I can't handle being set back anymore. The guild I was in before (which disbanded due to politics w/ the officers beyond my knowledge) was at the same spot my new guild is in, and that was 5 months ago...
Any comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
I think you have to figure out what is causing these people to leave your guild. Is there certain people in your guild pissing your good players off? Bad looting system? For the most part when people leave there is usually a reason. Maybe try and talk to the people who left and find out why.
Geez that's pretty crazy. In a way that's why I dislike the server transfers. People don't need to be encouraged to be total douchebags, but it seems like climbing the raiding totem poll over their fellow raiders appeals to people like that. Sigh, I feel for you man. Hope you manage to make it through, although its going to be hard to stop that from becoming an avalanche.
The attempts on C'thun have been poorly attended relative to everything else.
There's your answer.
There's a strong prevailing belief, either from wow.com forums or something, that AQ40 is completely superfluous. While the validity of this idea is up for debate, the fact is for non-cthun guilds this is the current prevailing thought.
Thus if you're going to go the non-standard route, you have to make sure that your guild understands this and is with you on this. If you do things that the guild view as extremely stupid with no justification on your part, then you can't expect your guildmembers to blindly follow you.
The attempts on C'thun have been poorly attended relative to everything else.
There's your answer.
There's a strong prevailing belief, either from wow.com forums or something, that AQ40 is completely superfluous. While the validity of this idea is up for debate, the fact is for non-cthun guilds this is the current prevailing thought.
Thus if you're going to go the non-standard route, you have to make sure that your guild understands this and is with you on this. If you do things that the guild view as extremely stupid with no justification on your part, then you can't expect your guildmembers to blindly follow you.
a guild past the emperors should definitely be working on c'thun. Everything he drops is extremely worthwhile
I think you have to figure out what is causing these people to leave your guild. Is there certain people in your guild pissing your good players off? Bad looting system? For the most part when people leave there is usually a reason. Maybe try and talk to the people who left and find out why.
Our looting system isn't the issue, the people who left are probably all in the top 10 in the guild in spent DKP. I'm fairly certain that the looting system has nothing to do with it. I know the 3 who left together went to a guild ~5 bosses deep in Naxx. I think they were just too impatient to learn the content. I seriously have no clue why the mage or hunter left. I'm examining problems but like I said before, I really am not understanding what is going on.
The encouragement has done me good though, I was kinda frustrated earlier. I just recently talked to a few people and we're just going to open up recruitment again. We have ~30 people that are die hard. The rest are pretty hardcore, they just have a bit of learning to do. I guess it could be frustration with the learning curve.
We're just going to go into mass recruitment and try to keep progressing at the same time. The guild is in great shape other than the key losses. I was just wondering if anyone else has experienced issues like this and how you dealt with them (I've never been a guild leader before).
I'm not saying that what he's doing is wrong at all. I'm saying that he has to get that across to the guild and convince them of that fact.
If he does not, then people will continue to question him privately, become unhappy when things don't go entirely smoothly, and then pack up their bags and leave. This has to be a fairly common occurance -- my server has 7 guilds making little-to-no progress in either AQ/Naxx, and we're getting a steady stream of (confidential) applications from members of these other guilds.
You use the word 'my' a lot. My mage. My hunter. This might be just a figure of speech, or it might betray 'an attitude of ownership.' Needless to say, if players in your guild would ever sense this from you, they would resent it enormously.
In my experience, people who don't discuss their problems with the leadership no longer respect the leadership.
You use the word 'my' a lot. My mage. My hunter. This might be just a figure of speech, or it might betray 'an attitude of ownership.' Needless to say, if players in your guild would ever sense this from you, they would resent it enormously.
In my experience, people who don't discuss their problems with the leadership no longer respect the leadership.
This just came out wrong in how I said it.
It's just kind of odd. Of the 3 that server transferred, one was an officer/raid leader, which was kind of odd since we hadn't heard anything. The rest, like even the class officers aren't exactly sure. A few were just unhappy with progression, others just got burnt out, but I don't think any of them have told anyone "I left because of XXX reason". I guess the more I think about it, I'm not really so concered about actually losing the people (I mean I am, they were cool people that I considered friends), but rather losing all that gear and all the talent. I just get nervous that if we keep losing talent and gear that we're never going to have what it takes to press forward.
If they quit without saying anything, they werent worth your time or raid slots anyways.
Or, they had seen other people pull all various kinds of drama when they had left the guild, and felt that leaving quietly and cleanly would be the lesser of two evils when they left the guild.
In Disrupted, when someone left the guild, generally morale plummeted. They put up a big post, explaining why, ending with "I love you guys, but I can't be with you any more", or something similarly inane. Progression effectively ended for a month afterward if it was someone with high attendance, or someone that was seen to have been "of great value".
Especially for someone "unreplacable" like a main tank, if you leave, you'll get all kinds of shit thrown at you from all different directions. To continue enjoying your video game, sometimes you just have to "disappear".
As far as the guild in question, having been there previously, here's my suggestion: Keep going, keep raiding, keep trying to progress. If you give in, and say "Well, we have to go through a rebuilding phase", things will snowball and continually get worse. Don't call off C'thun attempts, don't call off AQ40 and/or Naxx completely.
Just keep going, keep working on progress, and things will either work out or get worse. People get sick of stagnation... and refarming old content incessantly because you can't get anyone geared past Sunken Temple to apply to your guild (though the Maraudon gear would definitely help for Huhuran) will only assure your demise.
Jesus don't want me in a sunbeam
Sunbeams are always made on me
Don't expect me to cry, for all the reasons I'm gonna die
Don't ever ask your kick of me.
You use the word 'my' a lot. My mage. My hunter. This might be just a figure of speech, or it might betray 'an attitude of ownership.' Needless to say, if players in your guild would ever sense this from you, they would resent it enormously.
This is all purely speculation of course, but do you have a decent core of 30 or so people and then have to bring along 10 "retards" a night just to fill up raid slots?
With a large disaparity in skill between different members it can certainly cause resentment among the people who are "carrying" the retards along to get them "free epics"
People are going to want to play with people similiar in skill and mind-set to themselves. It would certainly explain why all your top members left, perhaps they felt that they could be doing much better, but only if they stopped feeling "dragged down"...
This is all purely speculation of course, but do you have a decent core of 30 or so people and then have to bring along 10 "retards" a night just to fill up raid slots?
With a large disaparity in skill between different members it can certainly cause resentment among the people who are "carrying" the retards along to get them "free epics"
People are going to want to play with people similiar in skill and mind-set to themselves. It would certainly explain why all your top members left, perhaps they felt that they could be doing much better, but only if they stopped feeling "dragged down"...
That's exactly it, coincidentally I am the "main tank" mentioned by Oneiros and we left because we LOVED 25-30 people in the raid and then there were 10-15 that tagged along for "free epics" and our server had nobody to replace those people with or class leaders were unwilling to do anything about it.
We felt that our time and effort was not worth it to continue to play the game under these circumstances(since we had the SAME EXACT problems for 5 months before this guild was formed).
The attempts on C'thun have been poorly attended relative to everything else.
There's your answer.
There's a strong prevailing belief, either from wow.com forums or something, that AQ40 is completely superfluous. While the validity of this idea is up for debate, the fact is for non-cthun guilds this is the current prevailing thought.
Thus if you're going to go the non-standard route, you have to make sure that your guild understands this and is with you on this. If you do things that the guild view as extremely stupid with no justification on your part, then you can't expect your guildmembers to blindly follow you.
Depends if people have seen the C'thun fight.
People in my guild want to skip anub (who we have essentially on farm status) this week for more C'thun time.
This is all purely speculation of course, but do you have a decent core of 30 or so people and then have to bring along 10 "retards" a night just to fill up raid slots?
With a large disaparity in skill between different members it can certainly cause resentment among the people who are "carrying" the retards along to get them "free epics"
People are going to want to play with people similiar in skill and mind-set to themselves. It would certainly explain why all your top members left, perhaps they felt that they could be doing much better, but only if they stopped feeling "dragged down"...
That's exactly it, coincidentally I am the "main tank" mentioned by Oneiros and we left because we LOVED 25-30 people in the raid and then there were 10-15 that tagged along for "free epics" and our server had nobody to replace those people with or class leaders were unwilling to do anything about it.
We felt that our time and effort was not worth it to continue to play the game under these circumstances(since we had the SAME EXACT problems for 5 months before this guild was formed).
I have to say the worst thing for me as a raid leader is when someone leaves without giving me reason or warning.
I try to talk to as many members as often as can and nip any drama in the bud, but what really hurts me is when I get a post like "Well Ive been feeling shit for 6months but thought instead of talking about my issues with the raid leader I thought Id sit on them then complain when 6 months later nothing has changed". If you really wanted the recruiting policies of the guild to change you should have talked to the guild leader, simply walking off leaves your guild leader reeling far more than the rest of the guild. Which is why the poor bastard is now posting here trying to work out what he is doing wrong, when of course it isnt really his fault at all.
This is all purely speculation of course, but do you have a decent core of 30 or so people and then have to bring along 10 "retards" a night just to fill up raid slots?
With a large disaparity in skill between different members it can certainly cause resentment among the people who are "carrying" the retards along to get them "free epics"
People are going to want to play with people similiar in skill and mind-set to themselves. It would certainly explain why all your top members left, perhaps they felt that they could be doing much better, but only if they stopped feeling "dragged down"...
That's exactly it, coincidentally I am the "main tank" mentioned by Oneiros and we left because we LOVED 25-30 people in the raid and then there were 10-15 that tagged along for "free epics" and our server had nobody to replace those people with or class leaders were unwilling to do anything about it.
We felt that our time and effort was not worth it to continue to play the game under these circumstances(since we had the SAME EXACT problems for 5 months before this guild was formed).
I have to say the worst thing for me as a raid leader is when someone leaves without giving me reason or warning.
I try to talk to as many members as often as can and nip any drama in the bud, but what really hurts me is when I get a post like "Well Ive been feeling shit for 6months but thought instead of talking about my issues with the raid leader I thought Id sit on them then complain when 6 months later nothing has changed". If you really wanted the recruiting policies of the guild to change you should have talked to the guild leader, simply walking off leaves your guild leader reeling far more than the rest of the guild. Which is why the poor bastard is now posting here trying to work out what he is doing wrong, when of course it isnt really his fault at all.
Except when you get the idea to transfer from your guild leader in party chat because you've wiped on huhuran 7 times and the emps 4 times in the same week.
And the server is absolutely terrible to recruit on and to find good players on. There are 2 other guilds in the same position as them and they have hit a brick wall. The server has lag issues every week. Naxxramas runs about 800 latency on primetime, making most encounters impossible. Only one guild has downed more than 3 bosses on the entire server and this is a server that has been open since release. And frankly, the player core sucks. There is no one to recruit that can dedicate as much time as we ask them to. The same problem was the reason the old guild broke up. Core members got burnt out of not progressing and there was no one to replace them and we had 33-35 people on progression nights.
Im not saying you did the wrong thing.
But that guy at the top of this thread slogged out his heart to run the guild, he seems pretty upset. Given he was the guy burning himself out to organize and run raids, to work the bank and run the logistics, dont you think it would have been polite to tell him, in person, why you felt it was time to leave. Its not right he should be hearing the reasons on the forums of a third party.
Its about basic decentsy, you dont need to write a massive essay. A simple:
"Im sorry but I dont think we will ever make progress on this server because of the lag and lack of good recruits. Therefore I am going to move to a new server"
Mixing people of similar skill level can sometimes be bad, but what is most often the case as well is mixing people of conflicting goals and dedication - You can teach the biggest newbie to raid within a short period of time if you're capable, if he is willing to learn and really work for it. If he is not, however, its a lost cause to begin with and he only drags down on the progress you've got going.
You might want to take a look at the goals of your guild, your rules, your core and your recruitment and make sure they work in harmony and not against eachother - You mention 'just' opening recruitment again and covering the holes, but what you need to do is fill with quality spots and not just with any idiot who decides to apply. I realize that being in the situation you are, its not exactly pick and choose, but quality applicants come in many forms and you just have to know what to look for. I've always found that by putting yourself out there in the right way, they'll bump into you reguardless.
[Edit: Yes, I agree with Judia - Leaving without any notice is quite rude in my opinion no matter the circumstance; Maybe I'm just 'raised' that way from EQ, but I've always considered it something you just do. Leaving feedback as to why you leave if you like a great deal of the guild, will help allow it to perhaps fix some of the issues that made you leave.
Furthermore, if this was on-going for a long time, I don't see why the people who were being hurt by this didn't bring it up themselves.]
We had a whole bunch of people completely quite WoW and selling their account recently.
There was another attempt to form an "Ãœberguild" which also teared a few people away from us (of course that guild existed for only about 3 days).
But we have lost many good and skilled players over the last few weeks, I would say around 10-15.
It sucks, and since our server is quite small, there is hardly any geared replacement for them.
We since then have gone from a Naxxramas killing guild to a struggling AQ going guild and that really sucks, but you have to gear up people first and teach them the new contect etc pp.
I think that's just the course MMO goes, people come and go, and there are times when many people quit, due to vacation, exams, fed up, whatever.
Recently I looked over my eqdkp logs. There are about 40 people missing with whom we downed Nefarian (those were the "good old times").
Retention of players through whatever means needed, is typically what differentiates guilds that exist for years as opposed to guilds which are merely a passing flight - Being able to hold on to the same players for whatever reasons, is such a crucial part of a raiding guild that many people unfortunately ignore. Which is part of why such a big amount of guilds crumble (No reference to the OP in this, sidetrack based on sp00n's post).
Aq40 is a bad instance.
Progression in naxx will make everyone alot more happy than a few weeks wiping to C'thun
My guild is going to kill Grobbulous before heading back for C'thun, Ouro and Visc.
The first few naxx bosses are pretty easy. Killable within a week of attempts each.
CThun wiping gives you coordination you're going to need for Naxxramus - I don't see how you're going to pull off some of the fights in Naxx, if you can't do CThun.
08/14/06, 10:09 PM
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