There has been a running debate among several people in my guild if being protection speced really makes a discernable difference when it comes to tanking mobs in 40 man instances. As as little background, as a guild we are clearing BWL on a weekly basis and have just killed sartura. We have done this without a single tank having a point in protection. For the most part our tanks have done a very good job when it comes to tanking.
The main tank is basically of the opinion that if you give him 3 sunders people can not pull aggro off of him. For the most part this is correct, but there are one or two people who can manage it from time to time. Now on fights where aggro resets, there can be a few more issues with aggro ping ponging a little bit.
My main question is, what differences would a raid notice if a warrior would go full protection. And is there a ready info guide that shows the Theory craft to better understand how the mechanics effect the job that a tank does.
Defiance.
15% more aggro, with 1.12 19,5% more aggro.
Basically that's the main reason to go protection.
Believe me, when your DPS increases in gear, there will be situations where you will be very very happy for that 15%. Especially if you are horde.
Most other talents in the protection tree are for what the tree says, protection so that the tank does not die as easily.
I don't think there are many bosses prior to Naxxramas I would want fully defensive spec warriors for but in almost all cases having Toughness, Defiance, Last Stand, Improved Shield Block, Improved Taunt, Improved Shield Wall and Shield Slam (especially the new version) has made it easier and quicker for us to get a first kill and subsequently made each future kill swifter and simpler. Once you get into Naxxramas you will find that certain encounters almost seem built for particular protection talents.
I believe Huhuran and Twin Emps will require at least one prot tank, especially Twins. Prior to that, you can tank all bosses with a Feral Bear, even Nef.
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The main tank is basically of the opinion that if you give him 3 sunders people can not pull aggro off of him. For the most part this is correct, but there are one or two people who can manage it from time to time. Now on fights where aggro resets, there can be a few more issues with aggro ping ponging a little bit.
Unless he's slowrolling the sunders or has a Thunderfury, the dpsers have either adjusted to his threat generation and don't push themselves beyond that, or they're bad. We killed everything up to Chromaggus with a 31/5/15 MT with no defiance and a Silent Fang, and he really didn't have aggro problems. None of our warriors had defiance, and the fang was a better aggro weapon than the Quel'Serrars that the rest of the tanks had, so the dpsers' standard of "all out" was based on him.
Then he got a Thunderfury, and our raid's dps went up noticably. Our rogues stopped using feint, warlocks went from aggro-limited to mana-limited, and a lot of bosses got a lot eaiser.
Assuming you have fairly even skill and gear levels, it's not that only one or two people are capable of pulling aggro -- it's that only one or two are riding the aggro line close enough to pull aggro when the tanks' threat generation is a bit below average. Try having a run where you give anyone who pulls aggro without assist-jumping 10g or so. Assuming you have good dpsers, it'll probably be pretty sloppy, and might change some tanks' minds (or it might not).
Also, <3 Last Stand. A tank that knows how to use it can turn things that should be wipes into kills.
There's more to protection spec than just plainly "more aggro". It's about more mitigation and more "oh shit" options as well. Things like Toughness, Imp Shield Block, Imp Shield Wall and Last Stand help tremendously on damage heavy fights. Protection tanks help healer mana which may allow you to stack more DPS for a raid if so required, and that DPS can go faster because your threat abilities scale better and you hold aggro better. For a lot of fights, 1 or 2 protection tanks help a lot to get those important first kills in and if you find a good, dedicated and reliable protection tank who you are willing to gear up well, you will definately see improvements in your raids.
I was asked to spec protection for a while in my old guild since I had basically the best of the rest in tank gear and I actually liked tanking to a degree as well. At first I had the same reservations the OP's MT will probably give as reason he doesn't feel he needs to be full protection; It's a gimp spec, I won't be able to farm, I'll feel useless everywhere else, but what if I want to PvP? etc. Going protection spec is a decision every tank needs to make for himself. Is your MT the MT because of convenience (he's got the best gear for the job, he's always there for raids) or because he wants to play one of the most important roles in a raid, with a big part of the responsibility for making a bossfight go well? Don't be afraid to discuss this situation with your resident warriors and see if any of them would really like the position for MT. Be sure to elect someone appropriate for the job, who you can safely gear up without a sudden "I'm burned out I'm selling" or "this guild wants me as MT now with my new gear and they have better progression cya!" in your guildchat. If all else fails, there is always recruitment options with a very specific need for protection warriors -server transfers can go a long way in this.
If your MT reads this and is still hesitant because of the above reasons allow me some reassurement: I was actually able to farm quite well. Killrate was down, obviously, but I almost never had to sit down and eat. Last Stand/Lifegiving Gem every 5-10 minutes basically took care of any healing needs. I'm a herbalist, so most of my time I was just picking flowers and being useful in that way. In PvP I was a giant when defending a base in AB, and an indestructable flagcarrier in WSG. I don't do a lot of AV, but with a few healers you can be a hefty nuisance as well. Once again, it's a style of play you may need to adjust to and have to like but it's really not the end of your fun.
Also, there's quite nothing like sitting semi-afk on your mount in LHC when 7 folks of an Alliance guild you despise all try to nuke you down simultaneously, and you're the only one who lives :)
Like Rane says, Protection helps with the learning curve. The mitigation definitely helps get you more mileage out of attempts.
My guild recently killed Huhu and we're working on Emps.
Sartura seemed kind of luck-based when we had no protection warriors. A couple of officers re-specced to Protection, and having even just one warrior with Concussion Blow led to less wipes.
With two protection warriors, we killed Huhu on our second night of attempts. With two protection warriors, we killed the trash to Emps on our first night.
You need two warrior tanks for Twin Emps. We had attempts with one Protection and one Fury (which were okay), and other attempts with two Protection (which were a lot better - lasting longer and giving everyone a chance to learn more).
The attempts with two Protection warriors went farther and we learned more. You can rez and re-buff in their room, but spending 5-10 minutes doing that just to wipe on a botched pull that could have been recovered from with Protection talents is demoralizing. If the tank dies early, the rest of the raid doesn't get to learn to deal with the teleports, warrior-warlock tank swaps, hunting adds, avoiding explosions, avoiding certains parts of the room, switching healing targets, and so on.
A tank can tank new encounters without Flask of Titans, but it doesn't make it a good idea. Same goes with speccing Protection.
One of the MTs said that he died a little bit inside when he specced Protection. But I'm really considering it just so we have a third option as MT. Fury is fun, but Progression beats it.
Why would you maintank any tough new encounters without toughness? I've yet to meet any guild that tried MTing Patchwerk at 31/20 first time around.
Why would you pass up shield slam, defiance, rage efficiency from imp hs and sunder, and 1-hand spec? All these allow your raid to push harder.
I tank for my guild 90% of the time. I kept MS until I got bored pvping, and going into Naxx its just more fun to be succesful.
When you have DPSers who can break 600-700dps fully buffed as evidenced by patchwerk meters, you usually want someone standing in front of the mob who can hold onto it.
Right now, TF wielding Prot tank is as good as it gets.
It's quite powerful to have great fury gear and be fury specced as an offtank at least. Being capable of tanking simple mobs when needed and then jump into dps gear and be top3 on the damage meters is quite insane, and I hope they really distinguish and buff the protection spec even more to help against that :o
As one of the devs said, the Vitality (+10% stamina or whatever it ended up adding) talent is not gone, merely pushed back, presumably to the expansion. I can imagine it being a 35 pt talent or something along those lines, so you can at best get Death Wish at the same time, but not MS or BT. It'd make sense if a 25 man raid is more or less required to have one tank with the talent to tank the hardest hitting of bosses, but outside of that one person, the other 2 Warriors in the raid can make do with a DPS spec and offtank.
There has been a running debate among several people in my guild if being protection speced really makes a discernable difference when it comes to tanking mobs in 40 man instances. As as little background, as a guild we are clearing BWL on a weekly basis and have just killed sartura. We have done this without a single tank having a point in protection. For the most part our tanks have done a very good job when it comes to tanking.
The main tank is basically of the opinion that if you give him 3 sunders people can not pull aggro off of him. For the most part this is correct, but there are one or two people who can manage it from time to time. Now on fights where aggro resets, there can be a few more issues with aggro ping ponging a little bit.
My main question is, what differences would a raid notice if a warrior would go full protection. And is there a ready info guide that shows the Theory craft to better understand how the mechanics effect the job that a tank does.
Thanks in advance.
Answer: Not really, except for certain bosses where a TINY BIT of mitigation make a BIG difference.
In Naxx, many boss encounters were created for a Prot tank, just like several boss fights seem to have been make for a shadow priest (Instructor & Grand Widow for mind control).
The key is this: You should have 2 protection spec tanks for raiding. The problem with most guilds is they require ALL of their warriors to be protection, even the ones with the lamest gear.
a protection tank is a waste of a raidslot. As was mentioned, your better off picking up DPS tanks who can tank when needed. If your only looking at the main tank then protection is a valuable subspec. 31 points in protection are a waste however points in toughness/defeiance and last stand are pretty useful. If i had my way our MT would be a fury warrior with maxed defiance using thunderfury.
a protection tank is a waste of a raidslot. 31 points in protection are a waste however points in toughness/defeiance and last stand are pretty useful.
I disagree, protection has nice stuff in it, and the 10% to 1H damage help the tank do a little dps too if needed.
Shield Slam is a great ability, it gives a good amount of threat (more than sunder) and does some damage.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Right now, TF wielding Prot tank is as good as it gets.
Conclusion: Its well worth it.
Been a few months since I was full Protection, so with the reduction of cost to Shield Slam, it may have gotten better overall...but it wasn't nearly that clearcut. There is no denying that Toughness and Imp Shield Block are very valuable mitigation tools and that Last Stand is a great "oh shit" button, but beyond that it becomes a grey area when you factor in something like TF. For aggro purposes (prior to the 20 rage Slam), Fury hands down destroyed Protection, and yes, I am including defiance in there. To go even further, a Fury/Protection spec would be the best possible mitigation/aggro spec you can get...although you lose a bit of uitility from the lack of Tactical Mastery.
Why would you pass up shield slam, defiance, rage efficiency from imp hs and sunder, and 1-hand spec? All these allow your raid to push harder.
Depends on gear. TF doesn't benefit from 1hws nearly as much as a full physical weapon does, and benefits much more from Flurry. Imp Heroic is useful, because it serves a dual purpose...rage effeciency while tanking, but also slightly increases DPS. Imp Sunder has to be the most overrated talent Protection has however.
As one of the devs said, the Vitality (+10% stamina or whatever it ended up adding) talent is not gone, merely pushed back, presumably to the expansion. I can imagine it being a 35 pt talent or something along those lines, so you can at best get Death Wish at the same time, but not MS or BT. It'd make sense if a 25 man raid is more or less required to have one tank with the talent to tank the hardest hitting of bosses, but outside of that one person, the other 2 Warriors in the raid can make do with a DPS spec and offtank.
It will probably be where it was originally (a tier 3 or 4 talent). It got removed because it would be a requirement for every encounter/tank if it was in the game. Expansion allows everything to be balanced around the new state of the game etc.
I Agree the lack of TM sucks; however, if your a thunderfury warrior with defiance you won't really give a crap since your generate rage so quickly. The only thing your missing is the ability to dance into intercept which is arguably the reason you bring bad ass DPS offtanks. Let then do the dance and yank the mob.. the second you get there your gonna get agro back anyway especially if thier making an effort to pass you agro back.
Protection still scales worse in rage and agro generation then any other spec. It is a good crutch if your undergeared but at end game gear levels it is simply not necessary nor all that useful. Once they add vitality.. i may reconsider :)
I guess I should explain ..
why fury? Flurry means more rage to work with as well as more TF procs AND more heroic strike spam. warrior itemization is REALLY str heavy so your BT will do pretty damn good damage. Its agro will be only a notch beneath that of shield slam but the small difference is easily offset by the difference in your damage output/HS etc. On the whole, your MT doesn't really worry too much about dying from inability to eat incoming damage. He has a personal army of healers whose primary job is to keep him alive and kicking. As long as spike damage does not get to high the MT is safe. Most protection talents do very little help you deal with drastic damage spikes. The biggest concern is your MT ability to get agro and hold agro. The higher his agro the more damage the DPS gang can do. On the whole, any fight in WoW is best finished sooner then later. Your increased agro buys the entire raid an increase in efficiency since your rogues and fury warriors can go all out. If you look at patchwork you have a good idea of what your dps COULD do with better agro control.
Protection still scales worse in rage and agro generation then any other spec. It is a good crutch if your undergeared but at end game gear levels it is simply not necessary nor all that useful. Once they add vitality.. i may reconsider :)
The new shield slam is absolutely awsome in terms of threat generation, and it gets even better once you start getting some of those +block dreadnaught items.
why fury? Flurry means more rage to work with as well as more TF procs AND more heroic strike spam. warrior itemization is REALLY str heavy so your BT will do pretty damn good damage. Its agro will be only a notch beneath that of shield slam but the small difference is easily offset by the difference in your damage output/HS etc.
With my current gear, which gives me a bit of +block, my shield slam crits for more than my bloodthirst would do. And shield slam has innate threat on top of that.
Originally Posted by valner
On the whole, your MT doesn't really worry too much about dying from inability to eat incoming damage. He has a personal army of healers whose primary job is to keep him alive and kicking. As long as spike damage does not get to high the MT is safe.
Have you even been in Naxxramas? Its pretty much spike damage heaven.
Originally Posted by valner
Most protection talents do very little help you deal with drastic damage spikes.
Imp shield block is awesome spike damage protection.
Originally Posted by valner
The biggest concern is your MT ability to get agro and hold agro. The higher his agro the more damage the DPS gang can do. On the whole, any fight in WoW is best finished sooner then later. Your increased agro buys the entire raid an increase in efficiency since your rogues and fury warriors can go all out. If you look at patchwork you have a good idea of what your dps COULD do with better agro control.
Fury is no longer all that superior to prot in terms of threat generation, the new shield slam leveled the playing field there.
On the whole, your MT doesn't really worry too much about dying from inability to eat incoming damage. He has a personal army of healers whose primary job is to keep him alive and kicking. As long as spike damage does not get to high the MT is safe.
Have you even been in Naxxramas? Its pretty much spike damage heaven.
Originally Posted by valner
Most protection talents do very little help you deal with drastic damage spikes.
Imp shield block is awesome spike damage protection.
QFE!
Take a look at Hateful Strike, and mitigation... Toughness > All. There's a thread here about the math behind it.
And Imp Shield block is uber with the current mechanics since it prevents crits AND crushing blows.
I seriously don't even understand the point behind the question.
Is it "Worth It" to spec MS if you want Grand Marshall? Of course. If PvE is your focus, sure, you COULD go something other than deep-prot, but why? Really. I'm trying to understand WHY someone whose WoW-time is spending mostly Main Tanking raid content would WANT to spec anything else. Some kind of deep obsession with damage meters? Not wanting the warrior forum to make fun of you? You CAN tank in any spec, but isn't making EVERYONE'S life easier worth having to PvP on an alt?
Yep- I found myself having less and less time to PvP so I spec'ed from 31A/20F (which I used to MT for our first Nef kill) into a 34 Protection spec and I'm having an absolute blast. Like people pointed out, Improved Shield Block, Toughness, and Last Stand provide tangible benefits while the increased threat generation means that your DPS can push even harder. If I can prevent even one wipe with Improved Shield Block, Last Stand, or Improved Shield Wall, then I consider them a sound investment of talent points.
And, Improved Revenge is just awesome (when stuff isn't immune to stuns). :)
08/15/06, 4:16 AM
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