Anyone claiming that Prot isn't superior to Fury for tanking with a TF hasn't done it properly. On the surface it looks like Fury would do better, except for 1 vital component: Full Prot you use Shield Slam as a worthwhile damaging attack for threat generation every 6 seconds, the new one is that good. Thats another instant attack that procs TF.

While you can bloodthirst in Def stance, it costs 30 rage and carries no additional hate, so you simply don't do it that regulary. HS doesn't add an extra attack, just more damage to one thats already going to happen. Shield-bash does, revenge does, shield block and sunder obviously don't.

@Celandro

Correct me if I' wrong.

Flurry benefits: White Damage + HS Strikes + TF Procs by an arbitrarily haste amount (dependent on crit rate in TANK gear)

1HWS benefits: White Damage + HS Strikes + Shield Slam Damage by a flat 10%

First of all, in most serious encounters in full out Tank gear (dreadnaught e.g) you rarely have a crit rate > 15% (thats with BoK, Mungo pot). It gets much higher in OT gear, but even in my AGI centered OT Gear for PW (Conqueror stuff and some agi pieces) it's in the 25% range.

So the haste bonus certainly does not come close to 20% in *full tanking* gear. No way.

And you cant have flurry and ShieldSlam. ShieldSlam is a rage efficient, high damage (certainly no less so than BT in tanking gear) move with a HIGH aggro component on a low cooldown timer.
If aggro was my concern (which its not as I am not MTing any longer) i would certainly prefer ShieldSlam to a flurry build. Simply because ShieldSlam is *on demand* , an instant and on 6sec CD. How *reliable* is that TF proc? I had TF for 9 months now, and it *can* proc like a bitch, but its not something i would rely on. Even more so when you consider all the scenarios where snap aggro is required (think Noth after a blink). How does a random proc help there exactly?

If anyone still thinks that flurry with TF helps his aggro generation more than a full prot build with a TF ... go ahead ... test yourself.

regards

I've been tanking with TF for the last 7 months or so I guess, both as Fury/Prot and Full Prot. Nothing, and I mean nothing beat my aggro as Fury/Prot(Defiance) with TF. However, I was wearing half dps gear and dual wield tanking Molten Core.

As an offtank Fury/Prot excels for staying high on aggro while you can dual wield and use some dps gear but honestly when you are a real MT in actual tanking gear and TF, you just aren't going to usurp the new SSlam and 1h Spec. Flurry is massively negated by the tanking gear and minimal crit on boss(63) mobs anyway, so there is most of the benefit out of the window.

This conversation is getting more and more nebulous and I think I'm gonna stop reading it. At the end of the day, if you really *want* to MT as a Fury/Prot, I'm perfectly sure you can. Is it going to be the most efficient? No and you'll end up oweing your healers more pints than they owe you.

Either you spec for you, or for the raid. /shrug ultimatley they should be one and the same if they aren't, perhaps you are in the wrong job :)

I'm glad you added that 2nd sentence Fluster since dual wield 'tanking' MC is quickly becoming the same as DPS tanking 5 mans, you just deal as much dmg as possible and hope you stay ahead of the dps with complete disregard to mitigation

nice bottomline, i completely agree

You should be fine, as long as they have the mitigation from Toughness and enough armour to soak HS. As I understand it, they aren't really tanking as far as aggro goes, just being a high HP/AR sponge.

Take that with a pinch of salt thought, as I've only researched the mechanics/maths of the fight and not beaten it as yet. :(

I see no problem with that at all, toughness is key of course (which shouldn't be a problem with 15 points in prot) and the rest is largely gear dependent.

If you count defiance?

Yes a protexction spec tank is good to have when learning new content and it can make some instances go faster. Then speccing to dps when the newer gear is acquired will speed up the content a further step.


The fear or belief that a protection tank can't farm is false. As another warrior in my guild would tell you, prot spec with a DB and an ERB shield is completely doable. I am in 8/8 might with Bloodlord's Def and Buru's and can take the elite bugs in Silithus hives w/o much problem. Regal is the only one that is really difficult. I think that a prot tank in all blues would have a problem the same as any toon in all blues would.

My 2 cents

Blocking prevents crits/crushing blows doesn't it? Thusly Shield Block = win even if it can crit.

My guess is that prot spec is better snap agro and fury spec is better overall agro but overall agro with prot spec is high enough that noone can tell the difference so prot spec is better agro wise.

BTW TF with no agi gear will be at 17.65% crit full buffed alliance side with agi weapon enchant + mongoose + elemental sharpening stone + BoK + MoW + cruelty
5agi + 15agi + 2%crit + 25agi + 2%crit + 16agi + 15% agi + 5% crit + 85agi base = +9.25% crit + 168agi = 17.65%

With my current full tank gear the Im at ~14% crit with standard raid buffs, no pots. Certainly nothing that unusual here, just 44agi from gear/buffs: http://ctprofiles.net/1541669 Add a mongoose and a elemental sharpening stone and its over 19%. Add AQ40 gear and you can push 20% without an elemental sharpening stone. But regardless, even at 15% crit flurry will be up in the 55-60% range if you use the 3 damaging instants available.

My question again.. Is it more useful to have the TF proc 15-20% more to prevent the debuff falling off. Agro is simply not a problem for our TF tank so lets ignore agro totally. Is it better to have 4% more parry, 10 more defense and 5s more shield wall or is it better to reduces the chance that the TF debuff is going to fall off the mob by X% or is it better to increase the chance the debuff is on even more by using a different lower agro tank and letting the TF tank dps/backup tank (with more agi/+hit gear)? Please remember when answering that while 4% parry decreases incoming damage, it does nothing for your spike damage.

I'm my guilds MT and am always looking to maximize my potential..but as far as Defense goes, I feel like I'm slacking and I'm not sure how I would even arrive at 440 defense. I'm at like 397 or something similar.

I have 6/8 Wrath (missing shoulders and chestpiece, they've never dropped). I have ZG enchants on Helm/Leggings. I have Master Dragonslayer's Medallion, Elementium Threaded Cloak with +1 Dodge, Earthen Guard. Using Lifegiving/Onyxia Blood Talisman (Styleen's has not dropped). Rings are Archimitros' Ring of Reckoning and the Argent Dawn blue ring similar to Heavy Dark Iron Ring (we've never seen one, in a year of molten core). I apologize for this loot format, I cannot access ctprofiles at the moment or would like my gear that way.

Progress wise is MC/BWL/ZG/AQ20 on farm, AQ40 we can kill Skeram.

Sorry if this derails, but I've been both protection and fury for tanking. As we move to harder content, I want to ensure success.