Warriors: Is Protection Spec Worth it? - Page 3

Brissa · 08/15/06, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by Larond

Most of the people I have seen here are debating being either Full fury/arms with nothing in protection, to going all out protection spec... What do you have to say about fury or arms and partial protection?

Example Specs:
Arms/Prot: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...50000530200000
Fury/Prot: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...50000500000000
Full Prot: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...50110530201041

What are your opinions about all of these specs? Does anyone have numbers they can provide that prove one way or another which is better?

Going that deep into prot and not taking imp shieldblock or last stand just seems really odd.

Rodent · 08/15/06, 12:10 PM

Here's what I've found to be the perfect tanking spec:
http://www.wow-europe.com/en/info/ba...50110530221051

Fluster · 08/15/06, 12:16 PM

I have nearly that exact spec also. I have Imp Demo instead of Imp HS and Imp SW. I don't find I use SW enough to justify 2 points and the reduction from Imp Demo is pretty significant on the current encounters.

Rodent · 08/15/06, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by Fluster

I have nearly that exact spec also. I have Imp Demo instead of Imp HS and Imp SW. I don't find I use SW enough to justify 2 points and the reduction from Imp Demo is pretty significant on the current encounters.

We have a couple of tanks with imp demo shout, which is why I dont want it. the 6 more seconds can be pretty determinental on fights like patchwerk's low % enrage.

Fluster · 08/15/06, 12:31 PM

I've not done Patchwerk as yet, but I could see how it would be handy but still two points /shrug. There aren't many fights where I routinely use SW tbh, perhaps Vael, but that's more for convienience than necessity.

Perhaps time to convince my OT's to take Imp Demo instead :) Apologies for the slight derail.

On topic, yes it's worth it. It's usefulness past Defiance and Last Stand and 1/3 Imp SB is questionable, but there is merit there for min/maxing or making the raid more comfortable. Talents like Imp taunt/Conc and Imp sunder and the new S Slam are nice, but hardly required to beat the content. :)

Stige · 08/15/06, 12:33 PM

Fury is no longer all that superior to prot in terms of threat generation, the new shield slam leveled the playing field there.

I couldn't agree more. Pre 1.11 I was Fury spec with a TF but with the new Shield Slam there is no comparison as far as Threat generation is concerned. No one in the raid except rolling ignite mages can pull agro off our main tanks (both have TF and 31+ Prot).

Protection spec is needed if you want to burn threw content faster and that's all I care about, efficiency.

Stige · 08/15/06, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by Rodent

Here's what I've found to be the perfect tanking spec:
http://www.wow-europe.com/en/info/ba...50110530221051

Put 2 in Tactical Mastery and take 2 out of Improved Sunder (I only use it to increase raid DPS) and you have a spec I like :)

I can't imagine stance dancing with 0 rage.

Ashuko · 08/15/06, 12:40 PM

To slightly change the OP's question:

"Is protection spec worth it if you're working on clearing BWL?" Yes/no.

"Is protection spec worth it if you're working on clearing AQ40?" Yes/no.

In otherwords, think about where a guild is in terms of progression...

Rodent · 08/15/06, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by Stige

Originally Posted by Rodent

Here's what I've found to be the perfect tanking spec:
http://www.wow-europe.com/en/info/ba...50110530221051

Put 2 in Tactical Mastery and take 2 out of Improved Sunder (I only use it to increase raid DPS) and you have a spec I like :)

I can't imagine stance dancing with 0 rage.

I never ever miss tactical mastery in PvE, in my eyes its a PvP talent.

♦ Oggie · 08/15/06, 12:46 PM

We're at the wierd position currently of having -3- protection specced tanks. It wasnt' really intentional, it just sort of ended up happening- we as a guild like to have 2, and one of those two has had to take a bit of a break for RL reasons. Hes' sort of back now but his attendence is less than stellar.

IT could merely be psychosomatic (sp?), but when K respecced Prot from fury he became so amazingly much easier to heal. His aggro generation (being formerly Fury with a fairly good tank set) did not frankly noticibly change that much, though the person sitting next to him is a protection for a year + TF tank with better gear, so it's kinda hard to judge threat on that scale. The ability to Last Stand, Toughness...whatever. Easier to heal, less likely to get slaughtered if all the healers are warstomped/outranged/whatever.

I also (from a nonwarrior, take it with a grain of salt) think that Shield Slam is just extremely underrated by most. I know our MT yells out on vent that he got a 1000 SS crit on Nefarion- suppose he's got to keep himself entertained on that fight -somehow-, but that's a pretty nice bit of burst aggro for not much rage. I dont' know the added threat, but I'd venture to guess that SS is certainly up there in terms of efficency- and on fights where every little scrap helps (eg, the learning encounters) I think it matters.

Oh....and a Protection spec warrior in good gear with a TF in PVP is one of the funniest things you've ever seen. Your total damage goes down but still you can farm (better than all those other people who specced to raid, in fact....). The reality of protection spec is that it's not so bad, not nearly as bad as people make it out to be.

As far as I know, nobody has ever 'needed' a protection spec for anything. I've heard Fury does amazing things as a MT position, or hybrids with Defiance, or any number of things. The question comes down to your guild, and what would be optimal for you and them. For us, at our stage in the game, having 2 Prot specced tanks we think has significantly eased a number of fights, enuogh that our OT decided to respec once it was clear that our former OT's RL stuff would keep him busy for the forseeable future. Higher threat, better survivablity, we find it a good use of a raid slot.

By the way, -am- I wrong? Is there a situation where Prot is just nigh required?

Anias · 08/15/06, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by Oggie

By the way, -am- I wrong? Is there a situation where Prot is just nigh required?

Imp Shield Block is handy vs Vek'Nilash. Enough so that you should probably force the tanks who have it into tanking him,

Conc Blow is suprisingly useful vs stunable adds. (Noth, Anub, Sartura...)

The extra 5 seconds on shield wall are very useful, because they let you hit it BEFORE you need it, and still have it last through the entire duration of the effect you're concerned about (30% on huhu, Maex enrages, patch enrage, etc etc etc)

Shield slam is a lot of threat, and helpful in encounters with lots of taunting (ebonroc potentially) or encounters with deagros (broodlord, noth, Razuvious adds, vek'nilash post teleport when your rogues are coming in with combo points on the mob and cooldowns to burn).

This is ignoring the value of last stand, which is pretty noticable when learning stuff.

Prot is far from being a "bad" tree. While there are few situations where it is "required" (Flask of the titans will fix many many many ills) there are a number of situations where it's contribution to your progression is far more noticeable than any spec change in the raid. As a parting thought, If you are asking your priests/druids/paladins/shamans to spec for healing, and you are not fielding 2 protection tanks minimum, you are doing yourself and your healers a disservice.

Monsanto · 08/15/06, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by Aloaya

I seriously don't even understand the point behind the question.

Is it "Worth It" to spec MS if you want Grand Marshall? Of course. If PvE is your focus, sure, you COULD go something other than deep-prot, but why? Really. I'm trying to understand WHY someone whose WoW-time is spending mostly Main Tanking raid content would WANT to spec anything else. Some kind of deep obsession with damage meters? Not wanting the warrior forum to make fun of you? You CAN tank in any spec, but isn't making EVERYONE'S life easier worth having to PvP on an alt?

Not to start a QQ rant, but the only reason you see these types of questions is because Blizzard thought it would be cool to allow warriors to perform their primary PvE role with PvP specs for so long. Healers, on the other hand, got the short end of the stick.

Anyways, to address the OP:

Improved Shield Block (just need 1 point, any more is up to you) is awesome because you use blocks to make it impossible to get crit or crushed.
Toughness = less damage taken -> more mana for your healers
Defiance = I don't even have to say anything about this one
1h specialization = more rage and more aggro
Last Stand = Literally a life saver
Improved Shield Wall = Very nice on Huhu, Maexxna, Patchwerk, and I'm sure others.
Shield Slam = It's best use is as an instant-attack high-aggro move that you perform on untauntable mobs.

I'm sure I forgot all kinds of other stuff.

Schnappi · 08/15/06, 2:42 PM

Originally Posted by Oggie

I also (from a nonwarrior, take it with a grain of salt) think that Shield Slam is just extremely underrated by most. I know our MT yells out on vent that he got a 1000 SS crit on Nefarion- suppose he's got to keep himself entertained on that fight -somehow-, but that's a pretty nice bit of burst aggro for not much rage. I dont' know the added threat, but I'd venture to guess that SS is certainly up there in terms of efficency- and on fights where every little scrap helps (eg, the learning encounters) I think it matters.

A 1000 Shield Slam in Def Stance causes (250 base + 1000 damage) * 1.5 threat.
Sunder in Def Stance causes 377 threat iirc.

Shield Slam is a beast.

♦ Oggie · 08/15/06, 3:15 PM

Originally Posted by Schnappi

A 1000 Shield Slam in Def Stance causes (250 base + 1000 damage) * 1.5 threat.
Sunder in Def Stance causes 377 threat iirc.

Shield Slam is a beast.

Does the dispell cause extra threat if it manages to snag something?

I know our casters adore it on Azzy for example because it uusally pops off that shield, not sure if there are more than a couple other encounters where it helps....saves purge duty, that's for sure.

It's also great to hear our MT shout on vent that he crit and nailed that clothie with SS.

Overal, I've yet to see any evidence of it being weak since it's most recent changes. If it's worth speccing all the way in protection is an entirely different conversation, but in a vaccum it really seems like one of the best aggro genration abilities around.

One other thing that's been mentioned- at this point, it's kind of rare to see pvp friendly specs, or grind friendly specs, in a high end raiding guild. Warriors are mostly the exception, having the ability to farm/grind very well while specced for pure PVE dps (though it's not optimal for grinding or pvp). For those of us who've specced for the good of the guild, this arguement is a little...frustrating. I wouldn't expect a lot of people to be sympathetic to a tank that doesn't want to spec it.

Oh, and I firmly agree that more than 2 prot warriors is excessive.

sekdar · 08/15/06, 3:17 PM

I think protection spec shines when raiding new content. When your main tank's gear is the best it can be and you've been clearing the zone every week for months, the MT can probably safely spec out of prot.

The "new" shield slam is simply so powerful in terms of threat generation that I actually consider the protection tree to no longer be junk past 15 points. The difference of a tank with shield slam versus one without it is extremely noticeable - before it was buffed, as a DW/fury warrior I'd be forced to hold back on most fights, whereas now I can go all-out and have almost no threat of pulling aggro (which is a geared Fury warrior's greatest limitation).

If your DPS classes are at the upper echelon of gear and you don't have a Thunderfury (or, even if you do), a protection specced MT makes a very noticeable difference. Your raid DPS will go up significantly if they're at the point where they hold back (no matter how little) to avoid pulling aggro.

As for protection spec's survivability, other posters have already covered it.