GDKP Run Discussion: Spread it to your Server - Page 15

Reeshet · 11/16/09, 4:02 PM

After reading through some of the responses on this thread, I'm not sure this will work but figure I'll throw it out there.

I'll be leading my fifth ToC25 GDKP run this week on Emerald Dream.
World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Darmaul's ToC25 GDKP run, Fri 11/20 @ 8:30
The runs have grown increasingly popular and successful to the extent that I may actually do a second one each week.

However, I value my time highly and I'm always looking for ways to speed up the run. In Guild runs we generally clear ToC 25 in less than an hour easily but in my Pug runs even with no wipes it often takes 2 to 3 hours. A *large* portion of that is just that bidding even using the GRM addon takes a long time as people bid up in 100g increments.

One of the things I and a couple of my assistants were discussing is having a "Buyout" option. So everything except Weapons, Trinkets and Trophies would have a 5k buyout option. Whoever bid 5,000g first would get the item and we move on to next item. If no one bid 5,000 then bidding would continue as normal. For Weapons, Trinkets and Trophies the buy out would be higher, maybe 10k. (Over course of 4 raids, average prices on my server are 1-2k gold, sometimes above 3k and only 2 items have gone for above 5k - Justicebringer and Death's Verdict.).

This seems it would encourage some people to spend more because they know 1. They can get the item *now* and 2. They know if they don't get it NOW, someone else may. Just look on Auction House - how much stuff do people actually bid up versus using the buyout option.

One concern was missing out on bids that would have progressed above 5k if continued in 100g increments. One suggestion was to have a 5k as the minimum buyout and have the actual Buyout defined as "5k or current bid +3,000, whichever is higher". So if current bid is at 1,000g then 5k bid would buy item. If current bid was at 3.5k then buyout would be 6.5k.

One reason I'm hesitant to do this is that it's not supported in GRM so there'd be a some manual effort involved, but it seems like it might increase the average price paid on items which is always nice. But the other reason is I'm concerned there may be other ramifications of having a Buyout option that I haven't considered.

DandZ · 11/16/09, 4:18 PM

Originally Posted by Reeshet

A *large* portion of that is just that bidding even using the GRM addon takes a long time as people bid up in 100g increments.

While I agree loot is definitely the most time-consuming part of a GDKP run, in practice I've not seen any need for GoldRaidManager to add a "above x gold the increment goes up to y gold." Once it's clear multiple parties are very interested in an item, the bidding increment organically rises to 500-1000g without any prompting on my part.

That said:

This seems it would encourage some people to spend more because they know 1. They can get the item *now* and 2. They know if they don't get it NOW, someone else may.

This is precisely the reason why eBay offers both a "Buy Now" option and buyout-only auctions, and a while back purchased Half.com; it is human nature that some people prefer clean, quick, one-time buyouts to random, uncontrolled auctions.

I really like the buyout idea, but am concerned about its potential to cap the maximum return from the super loot like trinkets and two-handed weapons. It's quite possible that higher prices from other items might make up for the loss, though. (We need some active game theorists involved!)

Reeshet · 11/16/09, 4:42 PM

Originally Posted by DandZ

Once it's clear multiple parties are very interested in an item, the bidding increment organically rises to 500-1000g without any prompting on my part.

I tend to see the opposite. If people think they can get it cheap they'll start the bidding low. But what often happens is we'll get a choice drop that they *really* want and someone will come and say "2000" but then once the bidding starts getting expensive they'll drop down to 100g increments until someone drops out.

Tinwhisker · 11/16/09, 8:01 PM

In regards to auctioning items, what are the odds that people might embrace the idea of the entire raid having a mod that acts like an auction window. The raid leader dumps/links a drop into the window and a frame pops up for everyone in the raid. Their frame shows the high bidder, the current bid and options relating to bidding or passing (or even spectating).

Hell, make it kinda' look like the pass/need/greed window. Maybe if it's sophisticated enough it could run the whole thing with only limited input from the raid leader.

I bring this up because it takes all the bidding and everything else out of chat where it can get lost or interfere with other things. The only problem I see with this is that it would require the entire raid to have a mod and it's often the case that people wait until the last minute, feign ignorance, show up without it, or any number of things.

DandZ · 11/16/09, 9:41 PM

Originally Posted by Tinwhisker

In regards to auctioning items, what are the odds that people might embrace the idea of the entire raid having a mod that acts like an auction window.

[...]

The only problem I see with this is that it would require the entire raid to have a mod and it's often the case that people wait until the last minute, feign ignorance, show up without it, or any number of things.

You hit on the only issue which, sadly, is a big one. Paladins in even the best raiding guilds on my server don't necessary use PallyPower despite its stupendous utility. The odds of 24 other players installing a mod and keeping it updated as necessary (unlike a DPS meter or even DeadlyBossMods, a GDKP addon has to be able to accurately communicate with its kin) aren't very high. I'll bet that during its develpment GoldRaidManager's author considered more than once going in the everyone-has-the-addon direction before dismissing the thought for this reason.

No, the only comprehensive long-term solution (and one that would solve other problems/issues, too, of course) is for Blizzard to incorporate auctions into the loot system. Until then, GoldRaidManager is likely the best of all possible worlds.

DandZ · 11/17/09, 6:03 AM

I wanted to discuss the pricing patterns in the three runs on Llane I've held so far:

I am still surprised by how lucrative my runs have been. Based on others' reports here and on the Blizzard forums I expected a first pot of ~25K; in other words, had we merely killed Anub'arak and I could have paid each player 1K gold I'd have been more than pleased, so a pot exceeding 50K greatly exceeded my expectations.

As no trinkets or super-coveted weapons dropped the first run's pot was inflated by one player buying up four of the five trophies for up to 6.3K each; I did not expect the second run to benefit from such demand. No matter; four players bought trophies this time for still-high prices and, rather than a weapon, [Death's Verdict] sold for 13K.

For the third run I set an internal goal of 3K per player but dared to dream of 4K. We came very close; no trophy sold for less than 5K (again four customers), and [Justicebringer] and [Wail of the Val'kyr] each sold for five figures. (On the other hand, that price for [Talonstrike] is not a typo despite having three hunters!)

It's entirely possible that these runs have been flukes and that future ones will average out at 25-50K. In case they weren't, however, I'd like to know what's driving such healthy demand in Llane, especially for trophies. Tyrian and others have discussed whether and how each server differs from others in terms of receptiveness to GDKP. As stated, I am skeptical of the odds that any one server is going to be very different from any other. And, again, Llane is by every measure an utterly average server. I don't ascribe to myself any magical ability to attract unusually-wealthy GDKP participants. The only correlation I've found is that each run has had a healthy representation of players from the server's top raiding guilds, and they have generally been among the leading spenders, but I presume others' GDKP runs have also had such players, too. Note also that I've yet to have anything sell for more than 13K, even while I read of other early GDKP runs that hit 50K pots only when a trinket sells for 25K.

On a related note, I find amusing how closely the price lists for each run hew (other than the prices' magnitude) to the trends discussed in this thread. Each run's pot has grown from the previous. The second trophy sells for a price less than or close to the first, but the price steadily rises through the run. (This holds for other items, too; note the price difference in run #3 between [Blade of Tarasque] and [Misery's End]. As a member of the raid observed during the frenzied bidding for the latter, "Where were all of you when the dagger was for sale?" And before you ask, the only holy paladin in the run dropped out of bidding at 6K.) After trinkets, weapons see the most demand. Bind-on-equip items sell for a discount to the street value.

In closing, I am pleased to report that my repeated GDKP evangelizing at the end of my runs and in forum posts has borne some fruit. I am very, very grateful to not feel compelled to announce, build, run, and pay out for two separate GDKP raids this week! The post, by the way, illustrates a GDKP benefit I don't believe has been discussed in this thread: The potential for a guild that is not yet big enough/ready for 25 raids to use GDKP as incentive to fill out a raid roster (and, perhaps, find quality recruits).

Psyqo · 11/17/09, 8:09 AM

Originally Posted by DandZ

Any thoughts on how we can persuade Blizzard to incorporate GDKP into the built-in loot system? As wonderful and utterly essential as GoldRaidManager is I think we can agree that it is a tad idiosyncratic. More important, of course, would be the imprimatur that GDKP would receive via the implied Blizzard endorsement as a legitimate and accepted method of distributing loot.

I like this idea, but what do you think about splitting off the gold to all members of the raid automatically once an item is won? I'd think people would be much more likely to use the Blizzard-loot functionality if the gold was distributed immediately. This game thrives on the culture of instant gratification.

Reeshet · 11/17/09, 8:53 AM

Originally Posted by Psyqo

I like this idea, but what do you think about splitting off the gold to all members of the raid automatically once an item is won? I'd think people would be much more likely to use the Blizzard-loot functionality if the gold was distributed immediately. This game thrives on the culture of instant gratification.

Part of the benefit of GDKP runs is that people have to stay in raid until the END to get their gold. I know I have several people that come to raids that just want one or two specific items, like say Death's Verdict. Once we down Twins, if they have their gold and they know there's nothing else left for them there... They have no incentive to stay.

I led a LOT of pugs before I started doing GDKP runs and if you have as well, you know what *kills* pugs is when the good players decide it's not worth their time and leave the raid. Then while you're trying to find other replacements, more people decide to leave. In all the GDKP runs I've done, I've not ONCE had someone leave voluntarily after the first boss died. I attribute that *entirely* to gold being distributed at the end.

• malthrin · 11/17/09, 9:45 AM

Originally Posted by DandZ

It's entirely possible that these runs have been flukes and that future ones will average out at 25-50K. In case they weren't, however, I'd like to know what's driving such healthy demand in Llane, especially for trophies. Tyrian and others have discussed whether and how each server differs from others in terms of receptiveness to GDKP. As stated, I am skeptical of the odds that any one server is going to be very different from any other. And, again, Llane is by every measure an utterly average server. I don't ascribe to myself any magical ability to attract unusually-wealthy GDKP participants. The only correlation I've found is that each run has had a healthy representation of players from the server's top raiding guilds, and they have generally been among the leading spenders, but I presume others' GDKP runs have also had such players, too. Note also that I've yet to have anything sell for more than 13K, even while I read of other early GDKP runs that hit 50K pots only when a trinket sells for 25K.

I've been thinking about this recently, in conjunction with our efforts to increase our pots in some of the Mal'Ganis GDKP runs. While a certain minimum raiding community is necessary for this to work at all, I'm also starting to think that too healthy a raiding community will prevent the average prices from getting too high. On Mal'Ganis, there are enough PUGs and community runs that any decently geared character can find one. Contrast this with a small/medium pop server, where PUGs may be few in number and more restrictive on requirements. In short, demand is decreased when everyone can run the dungeon. On Mal'Ganis, the buyers are the people who want to gear up their alts faster than random drops; on a server with a weaker PUG community, GDKP may be the buyers' only opportunity to get 245 loot.

On the other hand, the Mal'Ganis GDKP runs also tend to net a lot of gold from raiders seeking that "one last thing I need from Normal". That probably happens less on smaller servers. Anyway, I guess this is a question of what the different types of buyers are, and how lucrative each type is for the raid.

DandZ · 11/17/09, 1:12 PM

Originally Posted by Reeshet

I led a LOT of pugs before I started doing GDKP runs and if you have as well, you know what *kills* pugs is when the good players decide it's not worth their time and leave the raid. Then while you're trying to find other replacements, more people decide to leave. In all the GDKP runs I've done, I've not ONCE had someone leave voluntarily after the first boss died. I attribute that *entirely* to gold being distributed at the end.

100% agreed. In my third run, we wiped four times on Anub'arak before beating him. From also having led and run in many pickup groups before GDKP, there is no way whatsoever that everyone would have stayed as they did if that would not have meant walking away from at least 3,000g, and potentially much more (another 800g from Anub'arak, as it turned out).

MaciejSas · 11/18/09, 6:06 AM

why do some servers jump at the chance - when it's almost universally laughed off on others?

The initial few replies set the tone for the rest of the thread. I’d recommend that before you start a DGKP thread make sure you have a few friends that will endorse it. This way you can influence the way the discussion unfolds. Also, ask the people that whisper you as interested to reply to your forum thread. Better yet, have a raid group ready before you go public and then present yourselves as a spontaneous forum initiative.Then remember to publicly congratulate yourselves on a successful run. Over time you will surely persuade more of those that are attracted and hopefully discourage those who wish to oppose. I doubt there are any such characteristics that would make a certain realm impossible to convert.

Belegûr · 11/18/09, 6:48 AM

Originally Posted by MaciejSas

The initial few replies set the tone for the rest of the thread.

I’d recommend that before you start a DGKP thread make sure you have a few friends that will endorse it. This way you can influence the way the discussion unfolds.

This is something I believe is particularly important. On my server, we've pretty much set everything up for our 1st GDKP run (which will happen on Saturday if everything goes according to plan), and the thread on the realm forum was crucial to setting it up. I was about to launch one myself when someone else did, so when the inevitable trolls stepped in ("the RL will ninja the pot", "the GMs are incompetent and I wouldn't trust them to act", "people will leave as soon as they have their loot", and so on), I brought in the arguments discussed here, and the naysayers quickly dwindled.

So, to anyone planning on launching such a run, take some time before posting, find some friends (not from your guild if possible, or it'll look suspicious) ready to unequivocally endorse your project, and keep your eye out for the trolls. People aren't stupid: if you give rational answers to whatever the trolls throw at you, they'll understand it's a viable system and they'll hop on, no matter what server you're on.

I mention this because as far as I know, FR-Kael'thas would only be the 2nd FR server to run GDKP (the first one being FR-Cho'gall).

ZachPruckowski · 11/19/09, 2:42 AM

Originally Posted by malthrin

I've been thinking about this recently, in conjunction with our efforts to increase our pots in some of the Mal'Ganis GDKP runs. While a certain minimum raiding community is necessary for this to work at all, I'm also starting to think that too healthy a raiding community will prevent the average prices from getting too high. On Mal'Ganis, there are enough PUGs and community runs that any decently geared character can find one. Contrast this with a small/medium pop server, where PUGs may be few in number and more restrictive on requirements. In short, demand is decreased when everyone can run the dungeon. On Mal'Ganis, the buyers are the people who want to gear up their alts faster than random drops; on a server with a weaker PUG community, GDKP may be the buyers' only opportunity to get 245 loot.

On the other hand, the Mal'Ganis GDKP runs also tend to net a lot of gold from raiders seeking that "one last thing I need from Normal". That probably happens less on smaller servers. Anyway, I guess this is a question of what the different types of buyers are, and how lucrative each type is for the raid.

I think it's a sweet spot issue. You're right that on realms with enough runs regularly doing ToC25 without much issue, there's less of a market for GDKP because there are already loot opportunities. However, on the flip side, it'd be hard to start GDKP on a realm where only the top handful of guilds and no PUGs have cleared ToC25, simply because it'd be hard to imagine putting a decent group together that can clear while also carrying people.

Mal'ganis has 70-ish ToC-clearing guilds, Chromaggus has 13. We're in the sweet spot where we have enough people in our faction (Horde side) that have cleared ToC to make the idea of a PUG clearing it not ludicrous, but we don't actually have PUGs getting further than Faction Champs.

DandZ · 11/19/09, 3:24 AM

Originally Posted by ZachPruckowski

You're right that on realms with enough runs regularly doing ToC25 without much issue, there's less of a market for GDKP because there are already loot opportunities.

I'd think there'd be more demand for GDKP runs on such realms because a) there's greater confidence any particular pickup group can succeed in killing Anub'arak, yet b) the odds are pretty good that a given player--even if he's killed Anub'arak every week for the past two months in one--still needs 1) trophies, 2) that one über item that dropped once with more than half the raid rolling, and 3) a few other pieces.

Ideally the leader of one of those pickup runs would convert it to GDKP, but I'd bet there'd still be demand for a GDKP run from a new leader if the idea is introduced right.

Bottom line: As was just stated here,

Originally Posted by MaciejSas

I doubt there are any such characteristics that would make a certain realm impossible to convert.

Amen.

Reeshet · 11/19/09, 9:20 AM

I've been running fairly successful GDKP runs on Emerald Dream and I now have a fairly long list of solid, wealthy raiders who want to come every week. Too many actually. Far more than the 24 I can bring in the raid.

I've now reached the point where I've got people asking me if they can pay 1,000g to reserve a spot in the raid.
So, what's the thoughts on the ethics about taking money for a raid spot?

Pros:
1. It's my raid... I feel I can invite who I want for whatever reason I want AS LONG AS I'm upfront about it and I'm not gimping the raid for selfish reasons (ie. they go through same gear check as everyone)
2. It's actually helping the raid because anyone that's willing to pay 1,000g is motivated to come and clearly has extra money laying around which should drive up the pot.
3. Gold reserve money would be non-refundable in the event they did not show or did not perform. So I'd feel sad about kicking them, but they'd be held to the same rules as everyone and there wouldn't be any incentive for the raid leader to try to carry a bad for personal profit.

Cons:
1. Have to make sure it's not someone who's paying 1,000g just to get carried through ToC25 for emblems w/ no intent to purchase gear. 1000g seems high to pay for just 15 emblems but might happen.
2.

I couldn't think of any other Cons.

Has anyone else tried this? Letting raiders buy a spot in the raid?

edited to clarify about gimping the raid & grammar.