GDKP Run Discussion: Spread it to your Server - Page 27

Handyhoof · 06/16/10, 11:52 AM

GDKP is primarily a better way to pug. At Cata's start, it will only exist if enough interested/experienced people do their primary raiding via pug, as opposed to guild runs. I suspect it will get more use out of the alt crowd until the 2nd tier of content is available, when guild raid nights swap to the new stuff and people are expected to pug for the trinket or shield or whatever important piece they are still missing.

Another thing to consider is Cata will not be a single dungeon with 12 bosses. They are looking to split the content into multiple dungeons, which will not all be cleared (or even scheduled) by all guilds, which may fuel some pug activity as well. This is where I expect the most GDKP activity to take place. It would be as at the start of LK, every guild was working through Naxx and maybe bumping over Sarth before reset, but many (most?) did not have access to Malygos at first, and their only hope was to get into a pug run for that dungeon. Granted, there was a keying mechanism in place, but for casual raiders, 3 raids with their guild may not be possible with scheduling, and a pug run will be necessary during "off-time" in order to keep up. If GDKP is available for these people instead of standard /random pugs, that would be the superior choice.

The system has spread well enough where people fairly readily understand it, and it will simply depend on whether it is prominent enough among people who would be running pugs for progression content.

Reeshet · 06/16/10, 3:40 PM

Originally Posted by Infra

A minor tip I thought I'd share:

As we all know, you need to over invite since attendance reliability is not the same as a guild run. 4 weeks ago we had 56 people waiting to get in. So stacked 1 team and was able to successfully put together a second team. We've been running dual runs since. As a result of this I've switched the in-game calendars to dual rosters - but not one for each team. Instead I've made a "GDKP: pure DPS" calendar roster and a "GDKP: tanks, heals, and dps with viable offspecs" roster. This allows you to not segregate players into an A vs. B bin (which would be a nightmare given the attendance fluctuations). It also nicely gets around the 100 person limit of Blizzard's calendar and makes inviting a tad easier since you can more easily recall player roles.

I've also started hosting dual runs ever since I got 63 people signed up for one run. I help ensure success by getting a very competent raid leader for the second run and I give them 1/26th share of the gold pot of raid #1 and I get a 1/26th share of the gold pot from raid #2.

The *MAJOR* problem I had with setting up two runs is I also run a 3rd GDKP run on Mondays and the in-game calendar is limited to 100 people. I've got FAR more than 100 people that come on a semi-regular basis not even counting their alts that they want to bring.

My solution was I now use World of Warcraft PUG Raid Organizer for all my raid planning. It's being actively developed and the site operator is hugely responsive to providing a solution to my needs. He's added link to wow-heroes score for each person that signs up. He's added a concise representation of that person's boss kill experience, he clearly indicates the raid roster and how many ranged, melee, heals and tanks are confirmed. He's just basically made my raids a thousand percent more successful and less time consuming to plan and implement. He even created an addon in game that will invite everyone in the confirmed list and show graphically if they're on an alt, offline, grouped, declined or in raid and what their role in the raid is.

So, I can't recommend more strongly. Try out World of Warcraft PUG Raid Organizer and see how you like it.

It obviously requires people who want to go to sign up there, but I've found that once I told people that I was filling raids based on those confirmed in advance on pugplug, people started signing up pretty quick.

rh8452 · 06/19/10, 4:46 AM

I'll reiterate the "don't bring bad players just because they have gold" sentiment. Our GDKP runs have become somewhat legendary for their progress as a result - we even created an entire alt guild for them called "carried by twenty". We may very well have the most progressed regular GDKP run on US servers, currently it clears all 12 bosses, 11 on heroic (killed professor putricide 25 heroic as of june 19 and Sindragosa heroic as of June 26). In fact my alt moonkin has gotten geared as well as my DK main from the run.

At first bringing bad players with gold worked decently, until getting to bosses such as Sindragosa and hard mode Rotface where bad players can instantly wipe the raid. Once the skill of the players in the raid reaches a certain point, doing exclusively hard modes for 277 loot becomes much more lucrative than clearing bosses on normal. 277 items such as frozen bonespike or tier tokens generally go for 20k+ gold, and the weekly pot per raider is 10-11k.

So we run a sort of "tier" system for raiders where "recruits" go to a friday run which does 10-11 bosses and a couple hard modes, and those that perform exceptionally then get bumped up to go to the saturday run that does mostly hard modes. This enhances the reward system and allows players to have something to aspire to that goes beyond mere loot - and it also encourages players to build offsets of gear because the cost of offspec gear is nearly zero, encouraging them to continue to come as once all the raiders get a particular main set item, it will go to offspec and go very affordably.

Doing exclusively hard modes also makes attendance much more reliable. Raiders want to continue going to the run because it gives them more progress than joining a guild would in a mere four hours a week of raiding, so we almost always have the same people every week.

rh8452 · 06/19/10, 2:44 PM

Good GDKP runs don't carry anyone "to help them make gold" as it were. The better runs have an entry point (ours is 11/12 + HM experience and at least half 264 gear) to ensure that participants have a clue what to do on encounters and won't waste people's time by wiping the raid with mistakes. Essentially, someone could come to us fresh to 80 saying they have 200k gold to blow and they'd be instantly turned away because they can't contribute to our progression or are a risk to cause wipes.

There has to be a set goal for progress in the raid in order for it to do well, and you need to bring people who are capable of contributing to reaching that goal. A low-end run which clears maybe six or seven bosses is generally what entry-level characters should aim to go to.

Keep in mind that a good GDKP raid leader will know that the more content is cleared in the run, the more gold is earned on average and the more likely it is that the people who are carrying the run will continue to attend. The big "secret" to 10k+ pots is getting a lot of hard modes and 277 gear.

ed: this post was in reply to someone's post which got scrapped, but I guess it remains relevant on its own.

Marzabul · 06/20/10, 3:42 AM

Hi all. Before hand, excuse me if I write something wrong, English is not my maternal language.

I am planning to bring GDKP runs to spanish servers in my realm, Sanguino. It will most probably be a big deal of hard work, because spanish people fear the idea itself of unknown people messing with his money and belongins. But I am confident, and writting a extensive but carefully explained presentation mixing both Tyrian OP post rules and explanations and DandZ model of presentation, that I am planning to post in the realm forum today or tomorrow. The idea will be raiding this next Saturday in ToC 25, or ICC10 if there is not enought people interested, to make people try and see how it works. I know both raids won't make lots of money, they will be easier than ToC hard mode or ICC25 in a server where pugs are often condemned to fail, so if people ends happy before Anub or Putricide, I'll be satisfied.

I explained in my guild forum what I wanted to do and showed them the text I am preparing. There were mixed reactions, but there was two interesting question from the same person, and i don't know what to answer at the moment, because I am not only trying to insert GDKP in a server, but in a country, in a whole culture apart.

1) I gave the same fixed price to every kind of weapon, 500 gold. Shouldn't the 1hands be worth the half? What happens with casters weapons? I thought that, being the weapon a really important part of any melee gear, the first question was not very important, but I don't have much experience with casters except levelling a resto shaman; as far as I know weapons for casters are not much more than statsticks, so I could be wrong, but maybe he was right on that. I suposse it's a matter of equality between both the melee and the casters?

2) I put the minimum price of tokens and trophies at 1000 gold, as it seems like a "default" price in most GDKP runs I have been reading. But, why 1000 gold (or a similar number)? He said he was okey if it was the price used in other servers, but that anyway it seemed a very high price: if it was something everyone was looking for, its price would go up with the bidding, but if only one person want it, could be very dirty make him pay so much. I thougth "well, I don't think any of both situations was worth attention, because people would be there to make money". But there was something right about his question: why it's usually the tokens and trophies listed as the most expensive items? Should I drop down? What if GDKP becomes popular and people adopt that downed price as the standard?

EDIT: Finished some questions.

Dondochakka · 06/20/10, 6:30 AM

1) I don't usually have different prices for weapons or armor so I might not be the best one to answer this but I'll give it a go. Weapons are generally more sought after than say... leather caster gear. So with items such as those there will be more interest in them. 1H or 2H, caster or melee, it's all the same. Multiple classes after them and it's likely that multiple people in a given raid will be after them too since weapons are usually the biggest upgrade. My prices are set at their starting points(1k for all non-tier pieces) to get a decent amount in the pot and to avoid people getting gear for like 100g. The idea of the run is to make gold(to a certain extent anyways) and you won't get much if people aren't willing to spend a little.

2) My token minimum is 5k in my runs so 1k seems dirt cheap to me. Then again it is for ToC(my prices are for ICC) tokens so depending on the progression on your server and the gear level's of most people 1k could be a lot. I haven't run a ToC GDKP since ICC hit. I have done the occasional ToGC one and it drops the same level of tier tokens until Anub. As far as I can recall I did start those at 1k as well. And they actually sold! Mostly just went to offspec but even at the point where most of the raiders were in 264 they still sold at 1k. So 1k should be an ok price to start with.

Couple other things that might be helpful. Don't bother with a 10m ICC GDKP run, you'll have very little competition on gear and most of the stuff will just go for minimum bid if it goes at all. Your first run should really be focus'd on being successful. Even if the pot ends up being kind of junky at the end getting the word out that you're successfully clearing content is important. Make sure you ask your raiders to post on the forums about the run as well as do a little trade spamming when you get out. After a successful run or two you won't have trouble filling the raids anymore. Instead you'll be trying to figure out who to bring and who not to bring to your next run. It's been said here before, progression=gold in these runs. If you can't kill anything you won't make anything.

Marzabul · 06/24/10, 10:13 AM

Well, so far I don't have any resistance against a raid GDKP in my server (only two trolls in the post I created but quickly scared by my answers and people posting about how interesting it seemed. In game channels clean, and lots of curious people whispering), but about the applyed people, got not mucho more than eleven guys, and half is curious people from my guild, so I don't have enough people at the moment for a 25 people raid. I'll try to pug it a couple hours before, but if in that moment it's not possible, I'll talk with the group about doing a 10man, maybe toc10 hc, maybe icc10.
I know, it's not optimal to do any 10man, but, what advices could you give me in that case?

EDIT: It's in Spanish, but if you are interested, my post is here.
World of Warcraft (es) Foros -> Proyecto: raid GDKP ToC25 -Sábado 26 de tarde

Reeshet · 06/24/10, 2:45 PM

Originally Posted by Marzabul

I know, it's not optimal to do any 10man, but, what advices could you give me in that case?

Suggestion 1: Create signups on World of Warcraft PUG Raid Organizer
You should create your raid on World of Warcraft PUG Raid Organizer and advertise heavily in trade channel and on forums for people to go there to sign up. It's *much* easier to vet potential raiders on this site than having to armory each person that whispers you and expresses an interest. People will know if they have a confirmed spot and it allows you to plan out the raid composition instead of trying to do it on the fly at raid time.

Suggestion 2: Run the Raid
Make sure you get the 25 man going (which really, with the 25% buff you *SHOULD* be able to.) In fact, if you get 2 solid tanks and 5 solid healers, you don't need a full 25 man raid. Less DPS means more gold for everyone.

Suggestion 3: Form a core group
Most important. Either with recount or Skada or World of Logs reports, evaluate who your high performers are. Talk with each of them individually and tell them you valued their contribution. Tell them you look forward to them coming next week and you'll ensure they have a spot.

Once you get a core group of 15-20 people, then your raids will start progressing farther and farther and then you'll have folks lining up to get into your raid. But the key part is forming that initial core group.

Dondochakka · 06/24/10, 3:14 PM

Trade chat advertising is a must. There are a lot of people that don't read the forums at all and will have no idea what the run is, when it is, or what it's about. Spamming trade every 5-10min will help you get the word out. Use the GoldRaidManager addon to do it as it has an AutoSpam ability that will spam your message to w/e channels you want at set time intervals.

Also, make sure you have macro's ready to answer common questions that your getting. The most common one I got when I started it out was "What is gdkp?". Since you don't want your trade chat spam to be overwhelming you can only put so much there. So macro's to deal with frequently asked questions will be great. Also make sure that you include in your spam a link(or at the very least a reference) to your forum post as your post there will have a great deal more explanation.

If you don't get the people for the run I really don't know what to tell you. Spam more and try again the week after. All you need is 1 or 2 successful runs and you'll never have trouble filling again. Just keep at it and you'll have it going in no time.

Arakan · 06/25/10, 4:31 PM

Lots of posts about people running their raids succesfully or not. However, I do have a almost untouched point, which is how to do efficient easy (and online) signups.

The background is simple, I personally introduced GDKP to the Silvermoon-EU realm back in ToC, and ran a few before our guild transferred off. Luckily someone picked up the idea, so the concept is still alive on the server. After talking to that raidleader we found that we had need of some way of doing efficient signups, if we were to create a portal/FaQ website for our servers runs.

In the search for a proper web based, yet easy to use signup system, I've gone through things like pre-set raid signups like on Guildhosting and guildomatic, however these had far too complicated account creation and verification processes to be efficient for the use with a weekly changing roster (of often more than 20 new people each week). A alternative would be systems like EPGP raid signups, but these would also require people to register and be approved before actually being able to sign up to raids.

So, I gave it a few days rest, and came accross a suprisingly simple sollution at the end of one of my Pen and Paper (exalted) roleplaying sessions. Which was Google docs.
We'd been using google docs to track things like Combat sollution, and for me my characters (I always lose the paper version). And one of the things google docs also offers are Web-forms, automatically linked to a spreadsheet list. But most importantly, It is easy for me to setup my questions without having to host my own website, nor extensive Login systems for my raiders. Once I get my forum online Ill also be able to easily embed it into a post (html code) without the need for knowledge about websites.

It is also easy to just copy a characters name from the list, to look at the armory, or to add to my ingame calendar event (for the actualy invite).

So, long story short, here is what I've been using for my last 2 runs:
Anointed's GDKP run - reloaded. July the 1st

What I'd like to know though, is how do other people do their raid signups? (keep in mind, that I bet 90% of you use the ingame calendar in some way, I do as well) I'm especially interested in creative ways to handle signups, or tailored specifically for Gdkp runs.

Gnug315 · 06/26/10, 6:54 AM

Originally Posted by Reeshet

So, I can't recommend more strongly. Try out World of Warcraft PUG Raid Organizer and see how you like it.

This looks really cool! Alas, I'm on an EU server and my google skillz are failing to solve that problem. Is there an EU version of the site* anywhere?

Edit: PugPlug now supports EU servers.

burtonag · 06/29/10, 8:06 PM

Originally Posted by Arakan

What I'd like to know though, is how do other people do their raid signups? (keep in mind, that I bet 90% of you use the ingame calendar in some way, I do as well) I'm especially interested in creative ways to handle signups, or tailored specifically for Gdkp runs.

Although not especially creative, I have found using the realm forums to be quite effective.

My post: World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> ICC 25 GDKP Sunday July 4th @ 6:30

Whenever interested parties contact me I refer them to the forums and ask that they read the rules and sign up there. Having written record of who all wants to attend has been great for helping me stay organized. No extra sign up; if they have a WoW account they have access to the forums. I can easily maintain an up-to-date roster, have quick access to their armory, and can answer any questions that arise. I then take the roster and send out in-game invites via the calendar. People can cancel via calendar, posting in the thread, or sending me an in-game mail. If I do get a cancellation I can go back to the forums and fill the spot.

beatific · 06/30/10, 3:19 AM

the kel'thuzad horde gdkp actually started a guild to help with tracking invites. "carried by twenty." there's multiple runs, friday night, saturday afternoon, sunday evening. ranks in the guild slot people for particular runs. the saturday run is actually 12/12 with 11/12 hardmodes down, the 5th progressed "guild" on the server.

Reeshet · 06/30/10, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by burtonag

Although not especially creative, I have found using the realm forums to be quite effective.

I used the forums as well, but there's a few issues with using forums

1. A lot of people don't check the forums regularly, so you're missing out on a wide audience
2. There's no easy way to take the list of names from forums into an in-game roster (most folks manually enter them in a Calendar invite)
3. It's a manual tedious process gear checking and experience checking those who sign up
4. If you run more than one GDKP run, it's VERY easy to exceed the 100 toon limit if you keep a set list of people who have attended before, their alts, and add in new folks.
5. Still a manual process validating raid composition and ensuring essential buffs.

World of Warcraft PUG Raid Organizer solves 4 of the 5 issues.

#1 Pugplug doesn't help here, still need to advert in trade chat
#2 When you confirm folks, it creates a text string that you can cut and paste into an in-game invite addon (available on site and through curse) so you have a visual roster in game showing roles, names and status (like in-raid, offline, etc.) When I do invites, it takes about 20 seconds to build the raid instead of the 10 minutes it used to take.
#3 When people sign up for a raid, the raid leaders sees a link to their wow-heroes score and a short list of their experience in ICC on alts and on that toon so 6(12) would mean someone that's killed LK on an alt (or in 10 man), but only done 6 bosses on signed up toon. You can also click on the wow-heroes link to see detailed gear information.
#4 No limit on how many people can sign up for raid and you don't have to keep track of folks who can't make it this week, but would like an invite next week. They just sign up for when they're available.
#5 Pugplug creates a link that the raid leader can click to go to the mmo-champion raid comp page to see the currently confirmed raid roster and what buffs are present and which are missing.

Ring0 · 07/04/10, 12:06 AM

To handle raid sign-ups I basically advertise a macro into trade every time I log on (just once will do, at peak times). Shadowsong EU has an off-site forum that serves the whole realm and it is a great tool to handle sign-ups. There's three GDKPs going at the moment and by default the people that visit there are not trade chat morons so that already gives you a solid player base to work with.

After compiling a list of who gets to go that week I make an event on the calendar and add the players to it. This is mainly due to the Mass Invite feature.

Any GDKP's attempted/downed Halion 25 normal yet? How long did it take you from zone in to kill? I'm thinking about whether to try and fit RS in - the main catch in my eyes is that you will only increase your pot if you actually kill him and otherwise it'd be a waste of time that could be spent on other bosses.

On Shadowsong EU we've been at 11/12, with 5 heroic modes down. Even 277 loot is starting to go for very low amounts due to having to take the same players in order to get that far. We managed to get our first 277 tier token tonight off BQL and fetched only 25k for it. This is, as I see it, a common problem. Do you take the low-geared but rich character or the well-geared regular who might not need the loot. When content isn't that forgiving that even one person can make the difference between a clean clear or an early end.