I keep going back and forth about this statement, but I'd like to propose that GDKP actually could cause inflation. My reasoning is that you have players who have large pools of gold that they *cannot* spend in the absence of GDKP runs because there just aren't enough BoE options available. The gold they are holding is essentially out of the market. When you introduce GDKP runs, you allow that gold to be re-introduced to the market, and it gets distributed to other players who may have need to actually spend it (the guys who can still upgrade through BoEs or still need to powerlevel a profession).
This is an argument that people had who were against gdkp system when it was first introduced in Korea (this is back in ZG in vanilla WoW). This thought sounds very logical (still to me it sounds very logical) and would have happened this way,
but somehow, it didn't.
As I have stated before, Koreans ran gdkp for over 3 years and this inflation did not seem to happen, when comparing the prices of AH and even the prices of loots in gdkp runs to the ones in US servers (I have checked on forums, wowhead, etc.).
What I find interesting is the reason why likely inflation causing factor, gdkp, not causing inflation (or at least, how it is balanced out).
Sorry Tyrian, I'll delete this post if you feel uncomfortable with the derail.
- Many of the core raiders are replacing farming (gold creation) with GDKP runs.
- Many of the few-upgrades raiders are hoarding the gold just as much to buy in future GDKP runs.
- There are still fixed costs to raiding (repairs, gems on upgrades, enchants, consumables) which remove gold from the market. I imagine the under-geared compensate for this a little by flasking up even on more trivial content.
These factors probably counteract the inflationary effect to the level of trivial on the scale of the entire market.
How do you distribute gold at the end of the run? Do you mail it? Open trade 24 times?
Is there a mod that will track whom you've traded gold to? I'd hate to lose track when several thousand gold is at stake. Maybe a trade is canceled because someone moves out of range and you don't catch that the money didn't transfer. Maybe you skip a name accidentally. Maybe someone is trying to trick you into getting a second cut.
How do you distribute gold at the end of the run? Do you mail it? Open trade 24 times?
It's split on the spot. A common way is:
- Everyone stands in close range of the Raid Leader
- Nobody trades the Raid Leader, he trades you
- He gives you your share of the pot
- He kicks you out of the raid (aka your done, you can hearth now)
- He Repeats x 24, until everyone has been kicked out of the raid
You won't have any problems doing it this way. Remember most people are unlikely to act stupidly, because they will want to get reinvited in future.
In an incident where a Master Looter fails to maintain such a "cash for drops" agreement and disappears with money belonging to players, we would investigate such an incident as a scam. We would of course recommend that players don't get involved in this kind of scheme and instead attend raids and instances with their friends, guildmates and other trusted players who will not organise such a scheme.
What the GM"s are saying applies to any run, they always will recommend you 'only group with your friends, guildmates and trusted players'. That is the standard response people will get when items are ninja'd so to speak, such as the Mammoth mount from VOA.
Given that many new raid leaders will look to/link to the OP I updated it with a small section on a written agreement at the start of the run. This is exactly the same as a random raid leader announcing the loot rules early. Basically if you're with a trusted raid leader, things like this probably arent necessary - but its 'good practise' to do regardless. Especially if you're doing it on a new server with people unfamiliar with the concept.
In light of this I recommend a simple macro to /rw just before your run starts, along these lines:
"Welcome to my GDKP run. All items (Including BOE's, enchant mats, Orbs) that drop will be auctioned off to the highest bidder and the combined gold pot will be split evenly 25 ways at the end of the run. Raid members will only receive their share of the gold pot if they are present when the final boss dies.
In the event a player is AFK for an extended period - or performs poorly - fair and reasonable warning will be given initially, but they might be removed from the raid and forfeit their share of the pot if it continues. If any of this is unclear or you have further questions, please speak up now."
Thats fair and covers all the important bases clearly. I probably should have been clearer and put this in my OP initially, most good GDKP raid leaders already do this.
But now it's explicitly clear, its good practise to make an agreement such as this. It protects raid members and the raid leader in the event he has to remove poor players. But, as those familiar with the GDKP concept will keep mentioning, if you group with trusted pug leaders its pretty rare to have any sorts of issues in a GDKP run. If you are on a server new to the idea, and with a PUG leader you have never heard of - its not unreasonable for you to expect an agreement such as this to be announced at the start of the run.
Great thread as usual Tyrian, I'll be considering doing a GKP hard mode TOTGC25 once we're able to kill anub25 hard in 1 night. That would be some serious money if you could put together a beasts killing raid, as the next few bosses are pretty cake but it will require very skilled and geared alts from a few major guilds, A buy in system may work for this as you won't be bringing any leechers at all.
We were very surprised going from Blackrock Alliance to Horde that they had never heard of GDKP runs, considering how effective and popular Maegara’s runs on Alliance always were.
We ran one the first week on horde, and funnily enough 50% of the pugs we got were from alliance, so getting the word out is the most important aspect I would say if you want GKP to be a success on your server.
It went fine but most of the horde was very poor and every single item we needed went to a guild member for 500g-2k which was cheap as chips for us. The pot ended up being a lowly 1.6k or something each.
However since then we have been running 2x in guild TOC25 so everyone usually has there alts locked now and I don't think I’ve really seen a GKP since.
Also I wouldn't advise someone with a lot of guild responsibility take on the job of leading a pug GKP every week, you have enough to deal with with 30-50 people bothering you all week about raids and other random stuff, you really don't need another 50 pugs PMing you 25 times a day trying to find out when the next GKP is.
Has anyone begun keeping a list of servers/factions that are currently running GDKP? I was going to just post a reply to ask about the US-Hyjal server, Alliance faction, but I figure instead of stinking up the thread about just one server, it'd be nice to see a list of what servers are doing it and be able to add to that list once we hear about a new server doing runs.
We gave this a try on US-Stormrage yesterday night. The raid was slow to fill up because of the massive opposition we received in trade chat but things were smooth once we got started. The bidding was really fun. Our only problem is that, in our hurry to get the raid going, a few people weren't gear-checked and weren't pulling their weight. We had to stop at Anub because of a lack of DPS.
As you suggested, I am keeping a list of the good/rich players and will keep inviting them while trying to weed out the bad players. Word is spreading around and the majority of the raid seemed interested in doing this every week.
The split at the end was only of 1.2k gold for our first run. I am confident that it will keep going up as we get more selective in who we invite, ensuring more drops.
I have to say that, as an economist, I kinda love analyzing DKP systems. This is a great solution to a mechanism design problem and I don't have many suggestions for refining things in a parsimonious manner. My one possible suggestion would be to institute an upfront fee for players that will be added to the pot (and hence given back at the end) in order to ensure performance. If you find that groups are easy to fill up you could probably jack up the fee to a clearing level - not in order for any individual to profit more, but to ensure that you get players who are both serious about the run and are experienced enough to have a fair amount of gold.
I guess one other possible thing is that you want to be able to select for players who will take all the items and/or maximize the total size of the pot at the end. I'm not exactly sure how you could do this without selling the rights to items (if they drop) in advance, though, which would be a hassle. It's an interesting problem to consider, however. Imagine having an addon that allowed you to enter willingness to pay values for all items you were interested in, and then raid leaders could somehow formulate groups by maximizing the total expected revenue of the raid given the highest valuations across all objects. I doubt such a mod would become popular, but it would be pretty brilliant if it did. Actually, it doesn't seem that infeasible (as you wouldn't need to have your whole raid use it for it to be useful), just kinda wonky... if anyone finds this to be an interesting idea, though, send me a PM.
I was wondering when an economist would chime in! Inflation and so forth are great topics, it's a great discussion to be had in public here! For those interested in inflation discussion, you can look to "US Blackrock, Alliance" as an example of a high population, well progressed server that frequently does GDKP runs - for any analysis of prices and player behaviour. We'd love to read any conclusions you make.
Regarding inflation, remember that alot of the gold is split to people who might have no intent to use it. If a bunch of bored mains go who have 20k already, and earn 5k for a total of 25k - are they all suddenly going to rush out and spend it? Probably not. People shouldn't get the impression that suddenly because everyone earnt X thousand g, they all will rush out and inject that into the economy. Some will, but many won't.
I will add that GDKP can also have elements of 'a poker game.' If you join a GDKP raid and you have 100 000 g, would you tell everyone? Of course not! If someone asked me how much i'd pay maximum for Deaths Verdict, I wouldn't tell them. Players aren't stupid - they don't want to be bidded up or have people aware of their wealth. It's more beneficial to rich players if lots of 'average wealth players' are in the raid unaware of it, in the event something drops and they could easily out-buy anyone. Usually only the raid leader might know a players wealth.
Most players just go on a run to hopefully 'buy stuff they want' and wouldn't think much about topics like this, but you can still play-it-smart in the process.
I actually did my undergrad thesis on MMO economics several years back, so I've thought about a lot of these issues. I'm gonna try to keep my comments to the topic of the GDKP system for now though. :P
There shouldn't be any harm in people knowing you have 100k gold. Either you have the highest willingness to pay or you don't and there's no reason to conceal the information (since it's not like you actually have to bid your willingness to pay, and if you have serious competition you would anyways.) Hell, it might even be in your interest to say you have an absurdly high willingness-to-pay if you can discourage those who could bid against you from being in the run. "Yeah, I'll pay 75k for Death's Verdict. Oh, 3 people just dropped? Looks like I'll get it for 100g now."
Actually, if you're doing a sealed-bid first-price auction, then there probably is reason to strategize via withholding one's true valuation. I'm guessing this is the case, although I'm not sure it's the best way to do things. I took it for granted that it was actually an English (ascending) auction, which reduces the incentive to hide a high valuation but which may also reduce the amount of revenue collected into the pot.
This is someone simply saying 'Hey lets try GDKP on our server' on their realm forums. The reactions of some the following posters are typical of what you would receive in /trade chat initially, "Terrible idea!". If you plan to start GDKP runs, read this thread - people will say the exact same thing to you. Some other people are interested and see the value immediately, whilst a few are just curious. Notice that the OP was started on an alt, and many people respond on alts in turn. The OP only pasted a tiny portion of my OP, thus alot of these people responding didn't get a thorough explanation the OP gives, and their negative attitude/reaction shows as a result.
A Premonition player starting a GDKP thread, via their main, on their realm forums. Premonition is a respected world class guild. He didn't quote the whole post, but thoroughly attempted to sum up the concept to those who might be unfamiliar. Notice immediately that the response of players is very mature and most of them are on lvl 80's replying.
Expecting more to come! As expected, most people are either 'curious or interested' in the concept. Only a small minority flat out reject the idea - that actually understand it first - the rest are usually trolls who put up barriers immediately upon reading about buying and items in the same sentence.
A few people have also PM'd me saying that they are trying GDKP as well.
If people are going to quote only a small part of my OP - or fail to thoroughly explain GDKP in their own posts - you need to expect that you will meet more resistance. More people who might reject, don't understand or appreciate the concept. One of my favourite responses that i've read was this one, "This has got to be the most retarded loot system i've ever heard of. I really hope whoever's dumb enough to do this gets ninja'd..... for alot...... ALOT....... ". People who have no gold and hate the idea of buying stuff often forget one key thing: Nobody is going to force or make them go to GDKP runs.
It's no surprise, so far, that the most positive response thread has come from someone posting from a main with a good pre-existing raid leader reputation, in a respectable guild - and who elegantly explained the concept. Given that this thread is approaching 20 thousand views, we should encourage people to use best practises. You should always remember this, whether you lead a GDKP run or whether you wish to go on one. This ingame agreement/statement is what GM's will use to resolve any issues that could arise in a GDKP run.
*** Only make or goto GDKP runs where the Rules are explicitly stated ingame at the start of the run by the Raid Leader. (Mentioning them on vent alone is not good enough, they must be stated ingame). ***
If the raid leader refuses to do this, simply leave the raid.
These are some more topics id love to see people flesh out and debate the merits of:
- Do GDKP runs cause inflation and/or have any other effects (positive or negative) on the economy?
- Do GDKP runs help 'make people better players? (Encouraging people to research items they need, as Gold is precious and you can't simply /random on everything. Refer to this post for some more details: GDKP Run Discussion: Spread it to your Server )
- Do GDKP runs increase the amount of raids done on a server? (More mains will come out of the woodwork to raid, who might not ordinarily go to PUGS. More people start raiding overall). How does this affect raiding and the server economy?
I have introduced the concept to one of the driving forces behind some of the most successful pugs on Runetotem EU (Horde). The initial reception was one of not only acceptance but of hopefulness.
Hordeside is decidedly smaller than Alliance and the server itself isn't very progressed (only a handful guilds have killed Algalon 10 and I think only one guild has the Ulduar 25 drake). To top that off a major segment of the population are Italians that unfortunately are very insular and in many cases don't speak English well enough to understand the details when pointed out. The reason for this popuation is simple enough, because they aren't great at English they migrate to where there are many whom they can communicate with. But I digress.
I will hopefully have some good news soon (ie. we try it out).