A few questions that I have been mulling over as I prepare for GDKP runs #2 and #3:
16 out of 25 members in my first GDKP run (as recounted in #197) bought at least one item. What has been the ratio in your runs?
From the perspective of maximizing the pot, does it makes sense to hold all trophies for sale at the end? Trophies are, as mentioned in this thread, the one type of item that every player in a GDKP run is almost guaranteed to be able to need at least one of. On the one hand, waiting until the end would permit those who haven't seen any interesting drops through the run to spend freely due to the "I don't want to leave with no loot" phenomenon. In my first run, the first trophy sold for 3K and the last for 6.3K; perhaps they'd each have sold for 6K if held back. On the other hand, doing so might very well depress spending, both for other items sold earlier (because players are saving up for trophies) and for trophies themselves (because anything available in quantities of five at once loses the perception of rarity).
Assuming a solid nucleus of competent Crusader 10/25-geared (not Grand) players--in other words, 25 of which who likely could clear Crusader 25 without incident in 60 minutes, +- 15 minutes--how many rich-but-fresh-to-80 others can this nucleus carry through a successful Crusader 25 GDKP run? Let's define "success" as killing Anub'arak within two to 2.5 hours from start (i.e., a few wipes are permitted), and that those being carried are performing DPS roles only and do not stand in the fire too often.
Over the last 5 weeks, i'm averaging 14 buyers per run.
In general, pressure to buy is a good thing. The more informed the buyers are, the more carefully they can spend their money, and the less they they are likely the spend overall.
I generally bring 2 tanks, 6* healers, and 7 highly geared, skilled DPS, hopefully a good mix of melee and ranged. That leaves 10 spots for carries, known spenders, geared alts, etc.
A bonus point, in relation to class balance- if you have a reasonable bank of players to choose from, try to take as many hybrid-capable classes as possible. This will maximize the number of potential buyers for most drops, drive up prices, and lead to less shards or bargain basement prices.
*5 healers is normally plenty, but in my experience, the extra healer basically guarantees a <90 minute run.
Is it bad when geeks get bored? I'd like to say thanks to all of you here, I've hacked up a lot of whats been written here to build the meat of my explanation, with due credit of course.
Over the last 5 weeks, i'm averaging 14 buyers per run.
In general, pressure to buy is a good thing. The more informed the buyers are, the more carefully they can spend their money, and the less they they are likely the spend overall.
That's reassuring (not that a 55.6K pot is worrying in any way); I'd had the idea that a higher number, say 20, was to be expected.
(Update: Only 11 buyers in run #2.)
That implies to me that saving all trophies for the end is indeed a bad idea, since it gives players more time to evaluate their gear needs. (One would think they'd do so before the run, but . . .)
(Update: And despite writing this, I ended up buying the last trophy--my first on that character--for the highest-price paid in run #2. Physician, heal thyself!)
Last edited by DandZ : 11/13/09 at 2:08 PM.
Reason: Updates from run #2
That implies to me that saving all trophies for the end is indeed a bad idea, since it gives players more time to evaluate their gear needs. (One would think they'd do so before the run, but . . .)
(Update: And despite writing this, I ended up buying the last trophy--my first on that character--for the highest-price paid in run #2. Physician, heal thyself!)
My experience from using both EP/GP and DKP, or pugs that only allowed a one drop per person over the years would suggest that in the case of raids, people who are willing to spend in the first place will be inclined to spend more later in the run, if they've had little luck, even if they'd been saving for something else. I'm assuming this would apply to GDKP runs as well, and I'd like to bounce the idea by you before I start my own runs.
So, say someone needs a trophy and a Verdict. They'll obviously pass on the trophies until the Twins, assuming (correctly, if I might add) that they stand a better chance of winning it they save their funds.
If for whatever reason, they don't get the trinket, then there's a good chance that they'll bid massively on the trophy (if the trinket didn't drop or if the trophy is auctioned after they've lost the trinket). If the trophy has already been assigned, there's a good chance they'll be willing to spend a lot on the Anub trophy.
The reasoning is that if they didn't get what they wanted, they would at least get as much as they can out of the run. This is a case where they've clearly evaluated their gear priorities before the raid, and yet, they they were forced to readjust them.
This is part of the psychology of a good chunk your target audience. For various reasons, for them epics matter (it looks cool, or it lets them play with the big boys, or it just helps them get an edge in their guild's Ulduar hard mode runs, whatever). The thing is, while sometimes this works to your advantage, other times the whole thing can backfire.
I'm wondering if asking the subscribers to confirm their participation via a PM, stating their top 3 choices and the amount they're willing to spend during the whole run could sort out whether you should sell the trophies in advance or not.
Originally Posted by XI-
In summary, TBC raiding is easy. 9/10 encounters can be summarized with 1 phrase. Stay out of the fucking fire. If this is too difficult BWL was still there last I checked, so go have at it for some practice.
Ok, so we're now in the position where there are two runs happening regularly on Kazzak EU - pots are between 40 and 60k every time, and everyone's enjoying it.
However, both runs are massively oversubscribed, and there seems to be no other uptake from people wanting to lead them. Does anyone have any suggestions as to how you get the concept to spread and become more the norm rather than something very specialist?
Ok, so we're now in the position where there are two runs happening regularly on Kazzak EU - pots are between 40 and 60k every time, and everyone's enjoying it.
However, both runs are massively oversubscribed, and there seems to be no other uptake from people wanting to lead them. Does anyone have any suggestions as to how you get the concept to spread and become more the norm rather than something very specialist?
Lots of interest is good- maybe you can harness that interest to improve the quality of your runs? First off, time is money, friend. Award people who show up on time, at the instance, ready to raid by giving them spots. Showing up on time is incredibly valuable. if you have more than 25 people capable of showing up on time..... maybe you can auction off the last few spots? first 20 get in free (award the most on time, best geared, etc), last five spots go to the highest bidders, to start the pot off.
Also, if your server has two runs, are the organizers friendly with each other? If so, you can work with the other organizer to optimize your class balances, to make sure that you get a good distribution of bidders (backbone, high roller, carry, melee, caster, tank, healer, hybrid, pure role, etc) across the two runs.
Make sure that the two runs are cooperating for maximum profit, instead of competing for players- if you have more "buyers" than "sellers", that makes it a sellers market- if the sellers are coordinated, you have the advantage, until 2 or 3 people step up and start organizing runs themselves. On Blackrock, we have the opposite problem- there are at least a dozen, well organized, well run, respected GDKP "sellers", that have to compete for a relatively finite pool of potential "buyers".
However, both [weekly GDKP] runs are massively oversubscribed, and there seems to be no other uptake from people wanting to lead them. Does anyone have any suggestions as to how you get the concept to spread and become more the norm rather than something very specialist?
After just three GDKP runs on Llane I'm facing the same situation. I've already had players who
bombard me with last-minute /tells as I am forming a raid
beg, really beg, to get in, describing GDKP as their only means of escaping poverty
take the fact that I can't fit them into a run as a personal insult
For 1., I have everyone, both in the raid and not, /join GDKP. The channel is used to keep non-bidding chat away from /raid, and is also my first resource should I need a replacement.
For 2., I don't know whether to laugh or cry. GDKP was not designed as the modern-day Works Progress Administration or workfare, but has apparently become so for some!
For 3., obviously I don't have to invite such people at all.
I have been doing all I can to spread the "GDKP gospel," if you will, so such runs become commonplace. I never branded my groups as "Dobie's GDKP run"; in my recap/price list posts I ask others to start their own runs; and at the end of each run I more or less plead with the raid to do so, noting that I am only one person and that the work involved in building raid rosters balanced by classes, gear levels, armor types, and spending power is enormous. The majority of members of my runs so far have been members of leading raiding guilds; I ask them while disbursing cash to consider using GDKP on their guild-only alternate-character runs (the ones where they end up inviting outsiders to fill spots). One person in raid #3 said his guild was considering a run of its own this week; I can only hope.
On another note, I am amazed by those who don't bother with requiring people sign up in advance for GDKP runs, instead just recruiting people on the fly just before the raid starts. Aside from the folly of using the Trade channel for anything but trade, how can one achieve the necessary sort of balance that I mentioned above without advance preparation? Yes, periodically updating a roster contributes to the workload I mention above, but I'm pretty sure that my requiring those interested to sign up (I have people reply to my announcements on the Llane forums; I know others use their guilds' Websites) with answers to specific questions about their gear and wealth is why my runs are 3/3 Anub'arak and why the third pot almost hit 100,000g.
To be fair, some realms just seem to have it easy. People immediately embrace GDKP and rush to go to the runs. Llane and Blackhand are two such realms that come to mind. Have a look how many GDKP threads there are on the front page of Blackhand realm forums alone: World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Blackhand
Now look at the response other servers can get, have a quick browse over these threads. They got the opposite reaction to what people have had on other realm forums, heres just two:
Reponses include delights such as, "Please dont bring this to our server", "ml at the end RUNS OFF WITH EVERYONES GOLD AND SAYS LOLOLOL@ALLOFU".
Then compare things like that with the first post you made regarding GDKP on Llane forums: World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Crusader 25 GDKP run Sun 8 Nov 8pm server . A list immediately full of people eager to be signed up. Now some realm posts might be badly written, or poorly thought out - and that most definetely can be a contributing factor to the response. However not all of them are, some very well written posts (using similar templates many others do) get this treatment.
If you google enough searches ( site:forums.worldofwarcraft.com gdkp - Google Search ), you can see many examples where the realm population reacts dramatically differently between servers. It's also common to read people respond with things like, "Its a great idea, but wont work on our server".
This brings up the interesting question - why? Who decides or is responsible for whether GDKP would or wouldn't work? How can the realm population attitude vary so much between servers? When people refer to things like 'my realms PUG community', what are the dominant factors which shape that - and those players' attitudes? How can somebody rationalise a comment like "This wont work on my server" as having merit? . Heres some suggestions for possible contributors:
- Overall server progression
- How many big raid guilds there are on the server
- Average age of 'the main guilds' on the server (how many established guilds are there?)
- How old/new the server itself is
- Does your server have certain external websites/forums many players often frequent? (Eg Mal'ganis and EJ)
- Total server population
- Did guilds run 'cash runs' in the past on the server?
- Special networks set up on a server (eg the Mal'ganis server and the EJB circles)
- The average length of time people have played WoW for on a given server
- What the typical profile of PUG raid leaders on a given server? (alts of good players in raiding guilds? Been playing for years?)
- How many times have free server transfers have opened up to or from the server before
- Pure luck?
So an interesting question is: If GDKP requires a server community to embrace it to work, why do some servers jump at the chance - when it's almost universally laughed off on others? Why does it just seem to work so much better on certain realms?
If anyone here has good overall knowledge of their respective server / pug community - and observed their servers GDKP reaction - you might be able to shed some insight as to why.
Blackrock is a big server that has been around since WoW's release. Many guilds and players have been around since day one, including a good number of the best-progressed guilds. There have been a few free transfers off the server, but the last one was 3 years ago. Many good PUG raids are led by players (eg alts) from big, established guilds. Many of the big guilds hold some form of PUG weekly, (taking a chunk of players from guild and pugging the rest). Some guilds did 'cash runs' during early BWL and ZG, selling bears. Many people who lead GDKP raids were from established, respected guilds. This lets them draw on the backbone from their guilds with ease, which helped facilitate initial success. Said guilds often have players that have been playing WoW a long time, and were already familiar with (or remember) cash runs (or variants).
All of this generally sounds favourable. If you had a server that is relatively new, has had the community shaken up multiple times with free server transfer-influxes, not many established raid guilds (and the typical 'random player' doesnt respect the names of any guilds on the server), no guilds that have tried any sort of cash runs at all before in WoW - it's easy to see all the factors adding up to a big change in attitude.
The ultimate conclusion of this chain of thought: If you can identify or pinpoint what it is about your server that is bottlenecking community attitudes to GDKP - and somehow address it - you might stand to be more successfull in bringing GDKP to your realm.
An example is setting up GDKP channels for people to join. This could work wonderfully for newer servers and people that haven't ever seen this done before. What a great way to educate curious, new people without fear of public troll ridicule. If you identify that your server is relatively new and has lots of players who have never heard of a cash-run type concept (not just gdkp) - think about ways to help educate them. A simple forum post saying "Hey, join my GDKP run" isnt necessarily going to do the trick very well.
If you identify your server as one that fits in the category of 'Not many established guilds, not many raid guilds, nobody really respects any guilds on this server, and pugs are generally horrible and led by inexperienced people' - It might be pertinent to build up your reputation first with a few random runs. If you're an excellent raid leader, people will generally recognise and appreciate this - even if you're pug isn't always a smashing success. Your opinion and suggestions will start to hold more weight when you propose a new style of PUG'ing. This type of server would also need a much clearer and detailed realm post to explain GDKP, tailored to the likely concerns of the community there.
A few people have asked, "How do I try and bring this to my server?". Best advice is to:
1 - Observe how others did it. Do your research.
2 - Think about what makes your server what it is, and approach GDKP in a way that will complement that.
Even something as simple as blindly copying realm post templates between realms could be a bad idea - who's to say whats written for a community on one realm, will resonate with a community on another?
Any thoughts on how we can persuade Blizzard to incorporate GDKP into the built-in loot system? As wonderful and utterly essential as GoldRaidManager is I think we can agree that it is a tad idiosyncratic. More important, of course, would be the imprimatur that GDKP would receive via the implied Blizzard endorsement as a legitimate and accepted method of distributing loot.
I imagine something like this:
Another loot option alongside "Group Loot" and "Master Looter." It wouldn't be called GDKP; "Auction," perhaps.
Instead of Need/Greed, the popup box would permit players to put in bids. (Perhaps all items on the boss could be put up at once, with a correspondingly longer period of time before bids close.) I would not favor any restrictions on bidding other than prohibiting bids that exceed funds on hand; while I only let people who can in some reasonable way use an item bid on it (a warlock who wants a stamina trinket can bid, for example), I know others take a more laissez-faire approach.
Once bids close winners receive their items immediately, and Blizzard holds the payments.
The raid leader is responsible for triggering the disbursement of the pot to every present member of the group. If this is abused (say, a raid leader who kicks everyone before disbursement), there is a complete paper trail for banning/punishing as required.
I ended up with a 97,000g pot in my last run. I don't want to carry that much of others' gold around if I can avoid it!
surely agree that it was meant to be referred to and selectively quoted from, not dumped en masse to the random masses
Most definetely. People should get a "TLDR summary" version, as most won't care enough to read a book. Those that do, would just follow a URL linking elsewhere. Alot of realm posts follow a similar format lately, but here's an example of some great ones:
However, I value my time highly and I'm always looking for ways to speed up the run. In Guild runs we generally clear ToC 25 in less than an hour easily but in my Pug runs even with no wipes it often takes 2 to 3 hours. A *large* portion of that is just that bidding even using the GRM addon takes a long time as people bid up in 100g increments.
One of the things I and a couple of my assistants were discussing is having a "Buyout" option. So everything except Weapons, Trinkets and Trophies would have a 5k buyout option. Whoever bid 5,000g first would get the item and we move on to next item. If no one bid 5,000 then bidding would continue as normal. For Weapons, Trinkets and Trophies the buy out would be higher, maybe 10k. (Over course of 4 raids, average prices on my server are 1-2k gold, sometimes above 3k and only 2 items have gone for above 5k - Justicebringer and Death's Verdict.).
This seems it would encourage some people to spend more because they know 1. They can get the item *now* and 2. They know if they don't get it NOW, someone else may. Just look on Auction House - how much stuff do people actually bid up versus using the buyout option.
One concern was missing out on bids that would have progressed above 5k if continued in 100g increments. One suggestion was to have a 5k as the minimum buyout and have the actual Buyout defined as "5k or current bid +3,000, whichever is higher". So if current bid is at 1,000g then 5k bid would buy item. If current bid was at 3.5k then buyout would be 6.5k.
One reason I'm hesitant to do this is that it's not supported in GRM so there'd be a some manual effort involved, but it seems like it might increase the average price paid on items which is always nice. But the other reason is I'm concerned there may be other ramifications of having a Buyout option that I haven't considered.
A *large* portion of that is just that bidding even using the GRM addon takes a long time as people bid up in 100g increments.
While I agree loot is definitely the most time-consuming part of a GDKP run, in practice I've not seen any need for GoldRaidManager to add a "above x gold the increment goes up to y gold." Once it's clear multiple parties are very interested in an item, the bidding increment organically rises to 500-1000g without any prompting on my part.
That said:
This seems it would encourage some people to spend more because they know 1. They can get the item *now* and 2. They know if they don't get it NOW, someone else may.
This is precisely the reason why eBay offers both a "Buy Now" option and buyout-only auctions, and a while back purchased Half.com; it is human nature that some people prefer clean, quick, one-time buyouts to random, uncontrolled auctions.
I really like the buyout idea, but am concerned about its potential to cap the maximum return from the super loot like trinkets and two-handed weapons. It's quite possible that higher prices from other items might make up for the loss, though. (We need some active game theorists involved!)
Once it's clear multiple parties are very interested in an item, the bidding increment organically rises to 500-1000g without any prompting on my part.
I tend to see the opposite. If people think they can get it cheap they'll start the bidding low. But what often happens is we'll get a choice drop that they *really* want and someone will come and say "2000" but then once the bidding starts getting expensive they'll drop down to 100g increments until someone drops out.
In regards to auctioning items, what are the odds that people might embrace the idea of the entire raid having a mod that acts like an auction window. The raid leader dumps/links a drop into the window and a frame pops up for everyone in the raid. Their frame shows the high bidder, the current bid and options relating to bidding or passing (or even spectating).
Hell, make it kinda' look like the pass/need/greed window. Maybe if it's sophisticated enough it could run the whole thing with only limited input from the raid leader.
I bring this up because it takes all the bidding and everything else out of chat where it can get lost or interfere with other things. The only problem I see with this is that it would require the entire raid to have a mod and it's often the case that people wait until the last minute, feign ignorance, show up without it, or any number of things.
In regards to auctioning items, what are the odds that people might embrace the idea of the entire raid having a mod that acts like an auction window.
[...]
The only problem I see with this is that it would require the entire raid to have a mod and it's often the case that people wait until the last minute, feign ignorance, show up without it, or any number of things.
You hit on the only issue which, sadly, is a big one. Paladins in even the best raiding guilds on my server don't necessary use PallyPower despite its stupendous utility. The odds of 24 other players installing a mod and keeping it updated as necessary (unlike a DPS meter or even DeadlyBossMods, a GDKP addon has to be able to accurately communicate with its kin) aren't very high. I'll bet that during its develpment GoldRaidManager's author considered more than once going in the everyone-has-the-addon direction before dismissing the thought for this reason.
No, the only comprehensive long-term solution (and one that would solve other problems/issues, too, of course) is for Blizzard to incorporate auctions into the loot system. Until then, GoldRaidManager is likely the best of all possible worlds.
I am still surprised by how lucrative my runs have been. Based on others' reports here and on the Blizzard forums I expected a first pot of ~25K; in other words, had we merely killed Anub'arak and I could have paid each player 1K gold I'd have been more than pleased, so a pot exceeding 50K greatly exceeded my expectations.
As no trinkets or super-coveted weapons dropped the first run's pot was inflated by one player buying up four of the five trophies for up to 6.3K each; I did not expect the second run to benefit from such demand. No matter; four players bought trophies this time for still-high prices and, rather than a weapon, [Death's Verdict] sold for 13K.
For the third run I set an internal goal of 3K per player but dared to dream of 4K. We came very close; no trophy sold for less than 5K (again four customers), and [Justicebringer] and [Wail of the Val'kyr] each sold for five figures. (On the other hand, that price for [Talonstrike] is not a typo despite having three hunters!)
It's entirely possible that these runs have been flukes and that future ones will average out at 25-50K. In case they weren't, however, I'd like to know what's driving such healthy demand in Llane, especially for trophies. Tyrian and others have discussed whether and how each server differs from others in terms of receptiveness to GDKP. As stated, I am skeptical of the odds that any one server is going to be very different from any other. And, again, Llane is by every measure an utterly average server. I don't ascribe to myself any magical ability to attract unusually-wealthy GDKP participants. The only correlation I've found is that each run has had a healthy representation of players from the server's top raiding guilds, and they have generally been among the leading spenders, but I presume others' GDKP runs have also had such players, too. Note also that I've yet to have anything sell for more than 13K, even while I read of other early GDKP runs that hit 50K pots only when a trinket sells for 25K.
On a related note, I find amusing how closely the price lists for each run hew (other than the prices' magnitude) to the trends discussed in this thread. Each run's pot has grown from the previous. The second trophy sells for a price less than or close to the first, but the price steadily rises through the run. (This holds for other items, too; note the price difference in run #3 between [Blade of Tarasque] and [Misery's End]. As a member of the raid observed during the frenzied bidding for the latter, "Where were all of you when the dagger was for sale?" And before you ask, the only holy paladin in the run dropped out of bidding at 6K.) After trinkets, weapons see the most demand. Bind-on-equip items sell for a discount to the street value.
In closing, I am pleased to report that my repeated GDKP evangelizing at the end of my runs and in forum posts has borne some fruit. I am very, very grateful to not feel compelled to announce, build, run, and pay out for two separate GDKP raids this week! The post, by the way, illustrates a GDKP benefit I don't believe has been discussed in this thread: The potential for a guild that is not yet big enough/ready for 25 raids to use GDKP as incentive to fill out a raid roster (and, perhaps, find quality recruits).
Any thoughts on how we can persuade Blizzard to incorporate GDKP into the built-in loot system? As wonderful and utterly essential as GoldRaidManager is I think we can agree that it is a tad idiosyncratic. More important, of course, would be the imprimatur that GDKP would receive via the implied Blizzard endorsement as a legitimate and accepted method of distributing loot.
I like this idea, but what do you think about splitting off the gold to all members of the raid automatically once an item is won? I'd think people would be much more likely to use the Blizzard-loot functionality if the gold was distributed immediately. This game thrives on the culture of instant gratification.
I like this idea, but what do you think about splitting off the gold to all members of the raid automatically once an item is won? I'd think people would be much more likely to use the Blizzard-loot functionality if the gold was distributed immediately. This game thrives on the culture of instant gratification.
Part of the benefit of GDKP runs is that people have to stay in raid until the END to get their gold. I know I have several people that come to raids that just want one or two specific items, like say Death's Verdict. Once we down Twins, if they have their gold and they know there's nothing else left for them there... They have no incentive to stay.
I led a LOT of pugs before I started doing GDKP runs and if you have as well, you know what *kills* pugs is when the good players decide it's not worth their time and leave the raid. Then while you're trying to find other replacements, more people decide to leave. In all the GDKP runs I've done, I've not ONCE had someone leave voluntarily after the first boss died. I attribute that *entirely* to gold being distributed at the end.
It's entirely possible that these runs have been flukes and that future ones will average out at 25-50K. In case they weren't, however, I'd like to know what's driving such healthy demand in Llane, especially for trophies. Tyrian and others have discussed whether and how each server differs from others in terms of receptiveness to GDKP. As stated, I am skeptical of the odds that any one server is going to be very different from any other. And, again, Llane is by every measure an utterly average server. I don't ascribe to myself any magical ability to attract unusually-wealthy GDKP participants. The only correlation I've found is that each run has had a healthy representation of players from the server's top raiding guilds, and they have generally been among the leading spenders, but I presume others' GDKP runs have also had such players, too. Note also that I've yet to have anything sell for more than 13K, even while I read of other early GDKP runs that hit 50K pots only when a trinket sells for 25K.
I've been thinking about this recently, in conjunction with our efforts to increase our pots in some of the Mal'Ganis GDKP runs. While a certain minimum raiding community is necessary for this to work at all, I'm also starting to think that too healthy a raiding community will prevent the average prices from getting too high. On Mal'Ganis, there are enough PUGs and community runs that any decently geared character can find one. Contrast this with a small/medium pop server, where PUGs may be few in number and more restrictive on requirements. In short, demand is decreased when everyone can run the dungeon. On Mal'Ganis, the buyers are the people who want to gear up their alts faster than random drops; on a server with a weaker PUG community, GDKP may be the buyers' only opportunity to get 245 loot.
On the other hand, the Mal'Ganis GDKP runs also tend to net a lot of gold from raiders seeking that "one last thing I need from Normal". That probably happens less on smaller servers. Anyway, I guess this is a question of what the different types of buyers are, and how lucrative each type is for the raid.
I led a LOT of pugs before I started doing GDKP runs and if you have as well, you know what *kills* pugs is when the good players decide it's not worth their time and leave the raid. Then while you're trying to find other replacements, more people decide to leave. In all the GDKP runs I've done, I've not ONCE had someone leave voluntarily after the first boss died. I attribute that *entirely* to gold being distributed at the end.
100% agreed. In my third run, we wiped four times on Anub'arak before beating him. From also having led and run in many pickup groups before GDKP, there is no way whatsoever that everyone would have stayed as they did if that would not have meant walking away from at least 3,000g, and potentially much more (another 800g from Anub'arak, as it turned out).
why do some servers jump at the chance - when it's almost universally laughed off on others?
The initial few replies set the tone for the rest of the thread. I’d recommend that before you start a DGKP thread make sure you have a few friends that will endorse it. This way you can influence the way the discussion unfolds. Also, ask the people that whisper you as interested to reply to your forum thread. Better yet, have a raid group ready before you go public and then present yourselves as a spontaneous forum initiative.Then remember to publicly congratulate yourselves on a successful run. Over time you will surely persuade more of those that are attracted and hopefully discourage those who wish to oppose. I doubt there are any such characteristics that would make a certain realm impossible to convert.
The initial few replies set the tone for the rest of the thread.
I’d recommend that before you start a DGKP thread make sure you have a few friends that will endorse it. This way you can influence the way the discussion unfolds.
This is something I believe is particularly important. On my server, we've pretty much set everything up for our 1st GDKP run (which will happen on Saturday if everything goes according to plan), and the thread on the realm forum was crucial to setting it up. I was about to launch one myself when someone else did, so when the inevitable trolls stepped in ("the RL will ninja the pot", "the GMs are incompetent and I wouldn't trust them to act", "people will leave as soon as they have their loot", and so on), I brought in the arguments discussed here, and the naysayers quickly dwindled.
So, to anyone planning on launching such a run, take some time before posting, find some friends (not from your guild if possible, or it'll look suspicious) ready to unequivocally endorse your project, and keep your eye out for the trolls. People aren't stupid: if you give rational answers to whatever the trolls throw at you, they'll understand it's a viable system and they'll hop on, no matter what server you're on.
I mention this because as far as I know, FR-Kael'thas would only be the 2nd FR server to run GDKP (the first one being FR-Cho'gall).
I've been thinking about this recently, in conjunction with our efforts to increase our pots in some of the Mal'Ganis GDKP runs. While a certain minimum raiding community is necessary for this to work at all, I'm also starting to think that too healthy a raiding community will prevent the average prices from getting too high. On Mal'Ganis, there are enough PUGs and community runs that any decently geared character can find one. Contrast this with a small/medium pop server, where PUGs may be few in number and more restrictive on requirements. In short, demand is decreased when everyone can run the dungeon. On Mal'Ganis, the buyers are the people who want to gear up their alts faster than random drops; on a server with a weaker PUG community, GDKP may be the buyers' only opportunity to get 245 loot.
On the other hand, the Mal'Ganis GDKP runs also tend to net a lot of gold from raiders seeking that "one last thing I need from Normal". That probably happens less on smaller servers. Anyway, I guess this is a question of what the different types of buyers are, and how lucrative each type is for the raid.
I think it's a sweet spot issue. You're right that on realms with enough runs regularly doing ToC25 without much issue, there's less of a market for GDKP because there are already loot opportunities. However, on the flip side, it'd be hard to start GDKP on a realm where only the top handful of guilds and no PUGs have cleared ToC25, simply because it'd be hard to imagine putting a decent group together that can clear while also carrying people.
Mal'ganis has 70-ish ToC-clearing guilds, Chromaggus has 13. We're in the sweet spot where we have enough people in our faction (Horde side) that have cleared ToC to make the idea of a PUG clearing it not ludicrous, but we don't actually have PUGs getting further than Faction Champs.
You're right that on realms with enough runs regularly doing ToC25 without much issue, there's less of a market for GDKP because there are already loot opportunities.
I'd think there'd be more demand for GDKP runs on such realms because a) there's greater confidence any particular pickup group can succeed in killing Anub'arak, yet b) the odds are pretty good that a given player--even if he's killed Anub'arak every week for the past two months in one--still needs 1) trophies, 2) that one über item that dropped once with more than half the raid rolling, and 3) a few other pieces.
Ideally the leader of one of those pickup runs would convert it to GDKP, but I'd bet there'd still be demand for a GDKP run from a new leader if the idea is introduced right.
Bottom line: As was just stated here,
Originally Posted by MaciejSas
I doubt there are any such characteristics that would make a certain realm impossible to convert.
I've been running fairly successful GDKP runs on Emerald Dream and I now have a fairly long list of solid, wealthy raiders who want to come every week. Too many actually. Far more than the 24 I can bring in the raid.
I've now reached the point where I've got people asking me if they can pay 1,000g to reserve a spot in the raid.
So, what's the thoughts on the ethics about taking money for a raid spot?
Pros:
1. It's my raid... I feel I can invite who I want for whatever reason I want AS LONG AS I'm upfront about it and I'm not gimping the raid for selfish reasons (ie. they go through same gear check as everyone)
2. It's actually helping the raid because anyone that's willing to pay 1,000g is motivated to come and clearly has extra money laying around which should drive up the pot.
3. Gold reserve money would be non-refundable in the event they did not show or did not perform. So I'd feel sad about kicking them, but they'd be held to the same rules as everyone and there wouldn't be any incentive for the raid leader to try to carry a bad for personal profit.
Cons:
1. Have to make sure it's not someone who's paying 1,000g just to get carried through ToC25 for emblems w/ no intent to purchase gear. 1000g seems high to pay for just 15 emblems but might happen.
2.
I couldn't think of any other Cons.
Has anyone else tried this? Letting raiders buy a spot in the raid?
edited to clarify about gimping the raid & grammar.
11/11/09, 10:28 PM
Award people who show up on time, at the instance, ready to raid by giving them spots. Showing up on time is incredibly valuable. if you have more than 25 people capable of showing up on time..... maybe you can auction off the last few spots? first 20 get in free (award the most on time, best geared, etc), last five spots go to the highest bidders, to start the pot off. 
