Just a few quick questions about combat dagger CP cycles. I'm a fairly low-geared (blues) player, so I'm not at 9% to hit yet. Close, but not all the way there. I'm preparing to enter MC and get in my first serious raid encounters as a rogue.

1) 2/3 or 3/3 improved S&D vs. the 1% crit in Dagger spec?

2) How do I work my cycles? I know that S&D is the #1 priority: how do I ensure maximum uptime for it, especially on short v. long-term fights? I've read about the 3-5-5 for 3/3 Sword rogues, but I haven't seen anything regarding its equivalent for combat daggers.

3) Gearing priorities: if I understand properly, I'll want to work for AP gear while maintaining balance (don't stack one stat, but AP is probably my most efficient in terms of iLevel).

Sorry if this is a repeat/has already been covered. I tried to search for information on this, but couldn't come up with anything. Thanks again for your time.

1) 3/3 SnD
2) I get 2 CP SnD up initially, when that runs out hit BF, then work up to 5 CP SnD. Kalman came up with a CP analysis spreadsheet that can help w/ this though if you choose to get a *LOT* more into it.
3) If you're starting MC and looking for gear, probably get the first GGR you come across. As far as NS pieces that are big upgrades - figure out if you're doing Ony, and pass on NS hat if you are, but some of the "good" NS pieces are chest, shoulders, gloves (for now), boots and legs. If you have 2 pcs of the ZG set, just work around keeping them for the 20 AP bonus, which is pretty sweet (i still use chest/bracers for the AP bonus).

Aim for probably 28%+ tooltip crit w/ that level gear and 3/5 Dagger Spec. At that crit level you'll probably have around 800 AP (??) absent lots of MC gear and good selection of blues.

You will also want aged core leather gloves asap. I'd prioritize them ahead of just about any other armor piece based on the resists and stats (also nightslayer gloves aren't that useful for a dagger rogue relative to the other pieces).

I'd go with ACL/Gutgore, NS Belt, NS hood (you'll need/want it for FR eventually), NS shoulders, NS chest, NS pants, in that order. Striker's mark and Quickstrike ring should also be in there at some point.

Gutgore is a pretty huge waste of DKP, I'd save for CHT, makes a decent MH, then a great OH.

IMO: ACL, CHT, NS Shoulders, Striker's Mark, NS Chest, Perd's, BF hood, BF Pants, BF Bracers.

Thanks a ton, guys. I'm grinding up AV rep right now for my Lobo/Don Julio, so I think I'll probably be skipping a Gutgore and saving DKP for a Perdy/CHT. I'll be running with a guild that's got it on farm, so I'll have access to the full zone from the beginning.

This thread brought an interesting question to mind. Are the ACLG going to be worth wearing once 1.12 goes live, assuming full weapon specialization? +6 daggers is good, +16 better, but at what point are you gimping yourself by staying with ACLG (are we talking Naxx gear?), and how will that extra +6 daggers add to DPS?

Depending on his guilds skill level and his current itemization, GGR may not be a -total- waste of DKP. Granted, if they're 1 shotting every mob up through domo on their first run, I too would pass on GGR. However if they're having trouble on *any* bosses up through Domo, I'd pick it up (as I did). I've still only seen maybe 2-3 CHT's drop in about 6 months of MC clears. Plus, CHT isn't really such a nice MH, when you can easily get bonescraper (for free) - which is a pretty efficient use of its' itemization budget.

Totally forgot about ACL's too - durrr moment.

Right now? I'd say 2/3. Post 1.12, 3/3 and go 2/3 Ruthlessness. It's a pretty arguable question, though, and personal preference can easily make your choice one way or the other on this one.

The equivalent for combat daggers is, essentially "Get as many CP as possible before you have to refresh SnD, then refresh SnD." Getting to 5 CP from 2 CP (your starting point) is most of the trick in learning to play the build. But again, it basically comes down to: build CP as fast as you can, SnD, eventually aiming for 5 CP SnDs.

Meh. Balance is going to be your watchword, don't gear for one specific stat, gear for damage. Work out (formulaically or via Chalon's sheet or via Theorycraft, even) what 1 AP, 1% crit, 1% hit, 1 skill, 1 Agi are worth in terms of damage upgrades, and select upgrades based on that.

Definitely pick up ACLG if they drop - those will last you through until Naxxramas. NS bracers and boots are worthless - they're outdone by easily obtained blues (Eclipse bracers, ZG boots). NS pants are ok, NS shoulders are excellent, NS chest is good as well. Once you're reliably one-shotting Ony with 40, it will probably be worth splitting into 2 25-mans and doing 2 Onys per reset to increase the rate at which you get scales (and, you know, T2 helms), so NS helm isn't that important.

If you're planning to rep to exalted with CC for Earthstrike, you might as well get the exalted dagger - it makes a decent MH, a decent OH, and the set bonus is actually very nice.

Crayte: ACLG will still be worth wearing in 1.12, assuming you don't have a Death's Sting.

You may be a little confused. The gloves give +5 daggers and the Weapon Expertise talent gives +5 total. It has two ranks, for +3 and +2 respectively. With the gloves and talent maxed you will have +10 total.

Try running ZG for the Jin rings. They're better than just about any combination out there until you're on Nef, even then it's difficult to break up the set.

Agreed, I just broke my set for the Master Dragonslayer's Ring from Nef's head, and the Honored Brood of Nozdormu ring. I certainly couldn't justify breaking it to equip any one epic ring.

I would probably value +crit ever so slightly higher with combat swords than with combat daggers. Your critrate is going to be lower so you are going to see a bigger percentage increase from +crit than with combat daggers. I'm pretty sure the difference is near imperceptible though.

I wouldn't look at any one stat as being something you should "focus on" with a build. Just put your gear and the stats into Chalon's spread sheet and see what you put out, and come up with your own AEP style system.

Or just do what I do, thumbnail it straight up with classic AEP and then reinforce it with Chalon's sheet.

I had a question about how SnD, BF, and KoS stack. On a fight like patchwerk is it best to hit BF and KoS as soon as possible both together with SnD? or one at a time? I'm not sure what is multiplicative and what is additive if anything.

Probiscus said to do 2 CP SnD and then when it runs out do BF? Don't you want SnD up at all times?

They are all multiplicative.

With SnD+BF+KoS a dagger with 1.8 speed would have 0.96 speed.
1.8/((1+0.3)*(1+0.2)*(1+0.2))= 0.962

***edit
Stupid thinking mistake.
Its not speed*(1-haste) but speed/(1+haste).

You may be waiting a long long time to get ACLG's and a CHT. In a year and a half of MC runs I've seen Ageds one time and 2 chts the first two times we ever killed domo. I'm still waiting for my cht... and I'm just about exalted with CC to get the veiled shadows. AQ wasn't even on the drawing board when we got our first cht's lol. Just for some perspective...

Lobo and Glacial are a very good starter set.

Actually, in all honesty, you'll get far more out of a Mugger's belt than you would out of ACLG's. If you have a muggers you can pretty much stop worrying about ac's after 1.12. You'll use it (muggers) for a long long time...

I would also recommend a distracting dagger if you can get your hands on one. You can toss it after you get a decent MH/OH after 1.12 though.

The way I see it, combat daggers is 100% about PVE raid performance so you might as well optimize for that. That means dropping Improved Gouge and Sprint and put them in things that will help you with the two primary goals of a combat dagger rogue when raiding:

A) Doing damage.
B) Not dying.

To that end I can see two builds being possible. Either this: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=n0ecoxZMIA00Ez0bZV without AR or this: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=n0ecohZMIy00Ez0boV with AR. To figure out which is best for sustained damage, you have to ask yourself wether the extra 140 energy (2 backstabs) from AR every 5 minutes beats the damage increase on backstab crits from the last two points in Lethality.

how do people rate ruthlessness vs Murder, i see ruthlessness as just a trash tallent for combat daggers (60% chance for an extra combo points every 30 seconds).

while murder may be useless for most of nax, i still think its better.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0xfoLZMIy00Ez0boV

CPs and Energy, in Combat Daggers are very, very precious. Ruthlessness helps quite a bit in building to a 5CP cycle, and gives you an extra (effective) 36 energy every time you use a finisher, given that you will have to spend 60 to get that CP back, or an extra 24 energy if you use Sinister Strike. If that extra CP is what allows you to hit 5CP in your cycle, it saves you 5 energy, on average, over your 4pt. slice and dice. And not only is Murder useless in Naxx, but also useless in AQ40 where most mobs are categorized as being "Critters", rather than beasts.

It's a much better talent than you think it is.

I haven't decided yet on Ruthlessness vs Murder. With 4pc bonescythe I am leaning toward dropping Ruthlessness in favor of Murder and still sustaining a 5 SnD cycle with the little extra slack I enjoy. Without the set bonus, I would still consider making the swap but I'd probably be leaning in the other direction.

Honestly I think there are a ton of little adjustments you can make to combat daggers in 1.12 and I expect to respec several times after the patch.

It depends on the fight. For something like Twin Emps where you have to move back and forth, yeah it's definteily some DPS. However, on a fight like Patchwerk where you have 100% ToT, Ruthlessness does absolutely nothing for CD.

That being said, I will probably get 2/3 Ruthlessness next patch. We don't do Onyxia or BWL anymore, so boss wise pretty much GWF and Maexxana would be the only ones where it would help. But on those fights specifically, you don't have 100 ToT so I'd imagine Ruthlessness will help out more. There's some trash in Naxx of course, but again trash is another scenario where I think Ruthlessness is more valuable than Murder.

Combat dagger ownage incoming.