Managing the transition from a bid based DKP system to Zero sum - Page 2

Jaerel · 08/17/06, 1:31 PM

Originally Posted by zexx

Originally Posted by Avair

The DKP system is horrible.

To borrow from Churchill:

DKP is the worst form of Loot Distribution system except all those other forms that have been tried.

You don't need a system to distribute loot. You need trust with your guildmates.

If you raid, and distribute loot, your guild has a system, whether it's been laid out in text or not. DKP is just one system, and it doesn't necessarily imply mistrust. It just makes sense if your guild is the mathy sort that would prefer to track things as opposed to loot with your heart. I'd prefer that the guild I raid with use DKP for the same reason that I balance my checkbook. It a little bit of bookwork that eliminates a proportionately larger amount of easily avoided heartache.

zexx · 08/17/06, 2:13 PM

Originally Posted by Emila

So you are basically saying that you trust everyone in your guild to decide what items they need more than other people, how in the world do you decide who needs gear more when its an upgrade to multiple people?

I'm not saying that I trust everyone on a personal level, but on a loot level, yes. Members of the same class in the same guild should have an understanding with one another on who gets what loot and who gets it first. Seniority, Attendence, Upgrades, and # of Loot recieved all comes into play. It is really up to you and the members to talk with one another and say "Well so and so was here all throughout AQ40 and took no loot at all, thus he has a priority over Tier 3 than myself and everyone else in my class" or "I really want Such and Such for a weapon so I'll let So and So take these armor pieces over me". Then when the final decision comes into play, you know that the right decision was made. It's important not to take loot personally. My guild has the final decision come down to the officers. Do I trust every one of my officers? No. But I do know that when it comes to loot, they let personal grudges slide.

DKP allows for any person to do whatever the **** they want. Long time sword rogues can turn around and say "Well, I have the most DKP, I want this Death's Sting." These situations happen all the time in a DKP system. Whether its Sword Rogues taking a Dagger, Dagger rogues taking a sword, a Paladin taking a Hand of Rag, a Paladin taking a DEoI, A Priest taking shadow gear from warlocks, Tanks taking 2Handers and the list goes on. I've seen DKP situations like this happen ALL THE TIME. It is total BS to have this happen. DKP even lets loot people can use rot or be disenchanted because they want to "save points". A successful raid needs loot to be distributed evenly.

How often do you see faults in the DKP system where you see BAD players get AWESOME loot. I've seen a Paladin with 4 pieces of Redemption, the rest judgement, C'thun mace, ouro shield, and end game rings/trinkets. Then I see another paladin in the same guild with a mix of Tier1 and Tier2 and I say, "That's DKP for you".

Kalman · 08/17/06, 2:23 PM

DKP is a word applied to a number of different things. Many of these things prevent the issues you're talking about.

(incidentally, there's nothing wrong with a sword rogue deciding they'd like a change and going daggers.)

DKP really does fall into the Churchill doctrine.

(BTW - your guild? Uses a form of DKP with irregular values for attendance, upgrade policy, seniority tiers, and item price, and relies on everybody thinking the same value for these things. You could write it out formally if you thought about it and have something that functions exactly the same, except doesn't rely on people agreeing.)

zexx · 08/17/06, 2:31 PM

Originally Posted by Kalman

(incidentally, there's nothing wrong with a sword rogue deciding they'd like a change and going daggers.)

Thats disgusting to think you would agree to something like that.

Originally Posted by Kalman

(BTW - your guild? Uses a form of DKP with irregular values for attendance, upgrade policy, seniority tiers, and item price, and relies on everybody thinking the same value for these things. You could write it out formally if you thought about it and have something that functions exactly the same, except doesn't rely on people agreeing.)

A form of DKP? No
There are no points, no bidding scheme, no real track records to maintain. Attendence is important, we have recently begun to keep records of it. However, unlike in a DKP system, should the officers decide that this person is better deserving of the loot rather than the person with the best attendence. Basically, you can't take everything into consideration, it's just too much. Every decision isn't the best decision, but you will never see a decision that will hurt the raid like the DKP system allows.

zexx · 08/17/06, 2:31 PM

Originally Posted by Kalman

(incidentally, there's nothing wrong with a sword rogue deciding they'd like a change and going daggers.)

Thats disgusting to think you would agree to something like that.

Originally Posted by Kalman

(BTW - your guild? Uses a form of DKP with irregular values for attendance, upgrade policy, seniority tiers, and item price, and relies on everybody thinking the same value for these things. You could write it out formally if you thought about it and have something that functions exactly the same, except doesn't rely on people agreeing.)

A form of DKP? No
There are no points, no bidding scheme, no real track records to maintain. Attendence is important, we have recently begun to keep records of it. However, unlike in a DKP system, should the officers decide that this person is better deserving of the loot rather than the person with the best attendence then that is the final decision. Basically, you can't take everything into consideration, it's just too much. Every decision isn't the best decision, but you will never see a decision that will hurt the raid like the DKP system allows

Thrillho · 08/17/06, 2:36 PM

Originally Posted by zexx

Originally Posted by Emila

So you are basically saying that you trust everyone in your guild to decide what items they need more than other people, how in the world do you decide who needs gear more when its an upgrade to multiple people?

I'm not saying that I trust everyone on a personal level, but on a loot level, yes. Members of the same class in the same guild should have an understanding with one another on who gets what loot and who gets it first. Seniority, Attendence, Upgrades, and # of Loot recieved all comes into play. It is really up to you and the members to talk with one another and say "Well so and so was here all throughout AQ40 and took no loot at all, thus he has a priority over Tier 3 than myself and everyone else in my class" or "I really want Such and Such for a weapon so I'll let So and So take these armor pieces over me". Then when the final decision comes into play, you know that the right decision was made. It's important not to take loot personally. My guild has the final decision come down to the officers. Do I trust every one of my officers? No. But I do know that when it comes to loot, they let personal grudges slide.

DKP allows for any person to do whatever the **** they want. Long time sword rogues can turn around and say "Well, I have the most DKP, I want this Death's Sting." These situations happen all the time in a DKP system. Whether its Sword Rogues taking a Dagger, Dagger rogues taking a sword, a Paladin taking a Hand of Rag, a Paladin taking a DEoI, A Priest taking shadow gear from warlocks, Tanks taking 2Handers and the list goes on. I've seen DKP situations like this happen ALL THE TIME. It is total BS to have this happen. DKP even lets loot people can use rot or be disenchanted because they want to "save points". A successful raid needs loot to be distributed evenly.

How often do you see faults in the DKP system where you see BAD players get AWESOME loot. I've seen a Paladin with 4 pieces of Redemption, the rest judgement, C'thun mace, ouro shield, and end game rings/trinkets. Then I see another paladin in the same guild with a mix of Tier1 and Tier2 and I say, "That's DKP for you".

What a dumb post. Your post amounts to "I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about but my anecdotal evidence of something I don't even understand clearly indicates I'm right." Perhaps you should travel back in time 4 months, make the arduous journey to the official forums, and make what will undoubtedly be your fifth thread on the topic of how C'thun is, in fact, beatable, and that people need to just try to kill ouro first! Or possibly, the Un'Goro power crystals! Or maybe talk to the leashed dragons! The possibilities are endless! What you're doing here is no different.

Once you stop frothing at the mouth about the horrible injustices that DKP doles out "ALL THE TIME," you may want to think about what it actually is.

Implementation is everything. Stop being stupid.

♦ Oggie · 08/17/06, 2:38 PM

I -know- I'm going to be the only one in this thread to say this, and maybe it's because of my guild, and our specific wierdness....

But why are you switching?

We're not nearly as far as many people on this forum, and there's so much hate towards the DKP system.....but we really like it, and ours is simply attendence/bosskills, with increased rewards for early/hourly/kills on new content.

I've found it always tends to reward people very quickly who show up and loot- and it gives people a very specific choice in the way that they choose to spend thier DKP. Bid small, accumulate your full set quickly? Bid minimum, saving your DKP to unload in one burst on that dream item?

We've had a bit of loot drama here or there, we had class locks for a while, but overall the fact that a person can always point to themselves as an issue (man, if it'd bid 2 points higher...if I'd gone a little cheaper on that BWL sidegrade...if I'd made 1 more raid..) seems to keep the drama to a minimum.

It sounds like my guild's using the same system you are, and we even recovered from a (full) DKP crash not too long ago, after people took a vote and decided not to go with zero sum DKP or officer loot, so apparently we're happy with it.

Have you considered moving from open bid to silent bid? It's still weak to various sorts of colaboration and the like, but it 'feels' like it works well.

Avair · 08/17/06, 2:39 PM

Attendence is important, we have recently begun to keep records of it. However, unlike in a DKP system, should the officers decide that this person is better deserving of the loot rather than the person with the best attendence.

Summary: Informal attendence based points system, subject to poor record keeping, overridable on a whim if officers feel like going to a Loot Council system. Taking an upgrade has no oppurtunity cost besides social pressure.

Like communism, Loot councils are great in theory, but in practice, no leader is completely fair, impartial and universally benevelant enough to make it work.

Emila · 08/17/06, 2:41 PM

Originally Posted by zexx

I'm not saying that I trust everyone on a personal level, but on a loot level, yes. Members of the same class in the same guild should have an understanding with one another on who gets what loot and who gets it first. Seniority, Attendence, Upgrades, and # of Loot recieved all comes into play. It is really up to you and the members to talk with one another and say "Well so and so was here all throughout AQ40 and took no loot at all, thus he has a priority over Tier 3 than myself and everyone else in my class" or "I really want Such and Such for a weapon so I'll let So and So take these armor pieces over me". Then when the final decision comes into play, you know that the right decision was made. It's important not to take loot personally. My guild has the final decision come down to the officers. Do I trust every one of my officers? No. But I do know that when it comes to loot, they let personal grudges slide.

DKP allows for any person to do whatever the **** they want. Long time sword rogues can turn around and say "Well, I have the most DKP, I want this Death's Sting." These situations happen all the time in a DKP system. Whether its Sword Rogues taking a Dagger, Dagger rogues taking a sword, a Paladin taking a Hand of Rag, a Paladin taking a DEoI, A Priest taking shadow gear from warlocks, Tanks taking 2Handers and the list goes on. I've seen DKP situations like this happen ALL THE TIME. It is total BS to have this happen. DKP even lets loot people can use rot or be disenchanted because they want to "save points". A successful raid needs loot to be distributed evenly.

How often do you see faults in the DKP system where you see BAD players get AWESOME loot. I've seen a Paladin with 4 pieces of Redemption, the rest judgement, C'thun mace, ouro shield, and end game rings/trinkets. Then I see another paladin in the same guild with a mix of Tier1 and Tier2 and I say, "That's DKP for you".

Dont confuse DKP with looting rules. All your issues with dkp are actually loot priority problems, something that your guild should resolve before getting the said items. IE Sulfuras is a Warrior only item.

Originally Posted by zexx

Thats disgusting to think you would agree to something like that.

God help people actually that went swords in MC and now realize that daggers give a higher sustained dps.

zexx · 08/17/06, 2:46 PM

Originally Posted by Thrillho

Once you stop frothing at the mouth about the horrible injustices that DKP doles out "ALL THE TIME," you may want to think about what it actually is.

Implementation is everything. Stop being stupid.

Your right, calling out "The DKP System" was a bad move on my part. I know a lot of people use forms of/variations of the system that work well. It is an injustice on my part to be so stubborn to that fact.

However, my greatest qualm is the fact that you can blatantly see flaws in some of their guild systems. Simply because they run a "Most points gets the item" type of system. You see it all time, on every server. If I see another paladin going around with a DEoI, I just don't know what I'm going to do.

hiro · 08/17/06, 2:46 PM

DKP just makes it easy and it ensures that after every raid, I don't say - "that was 5 hours of my life wasted! Damn you (loot council, unlucky /roll, useless drops, etc)!". I come out of each raid with one of two things.

1 - Loot.

2 - More Dkp, and others having less DKP so I am that much closer to the loot next time.

PS - I like loot, and my guild likes me.

On topic however, we have wiped DKP several times in guild reformations in the past. It sucks but you get on with it.

Personally I much prefer bidding to fixed cost man on top stuff, but I like freedom of choice.

Zagzil · 08/17/06, 2:49 PM

Originally Posted by zexx

Originally Posted by Kalman

(incidentally, there's nothing wrong with a sword rogue deciding they'd like a change and going daggers.)

Thats disgusting to think you would agree to something like that.

Huh? As a longtime SS rogue who took the first Death's Sting, I'm lost. If you choose swords you're somehow locked into being Swords for all of time? I don't get it.

Originally Posted by zexx

A Priest taking shadow gear from warlocks, Tanks taking 2Handers and the list goes on. I've seen DKP situations like this happen ALL THE TIME. It is total BS to have this happen. DKP even lets loot people can use rot or be disenchanted because they want to "save points". A successful raid needs loot to be distributed evenly.

Ever heard of loot priority and forced loot? Officer assigned loot can be just as much of a headache as DKP, if not moreso because at least DKP has clearly enforced rules.

DKP doesn't need to be a blind system, set guidelines and have smart members - it works out well.

Emila · 08/17/06, 2:51 PM

Originally Posted by zexx

If I see another paladin going around with a DEoI, I just don't know what I'm going to do.

Maybee all their warriors already have Ashkandi's and they dont want to purchase a side grade.

heckyeah · 08/17/06, 2:54 PM

Originally Posted by zexx

If I see another paladin going around with a DEoI, I just don't know what I'm going to do.

How about 'not care'? It's not like there's suddenly one less DEoI in the world.

zexx · 08/17/06, 2:54 PM

Originally Posted by Emila

Originally Posted by zexx

If I see another paladin going around with a DEoI, I just don't know what I'm going to do.

Maybee all their warriors already have Ashkandi's and they dont want to purchase a side grade.

And thats my whole point of the flaw. A minimal upgrade for a Warrior but an upgrade nonetheless. The warriors want to 'save points' so they don't bid. Now a great weapon is completely useless on a paladin.