Sienna

I know this is a very old discussion and nobody seems to know what's exactly going on but I'm taking my chances.

I did try to test with a rogue friend of mine if crits can be dodged. He hit me 100 times with 19.56% crit rate and critted 19 many, then I activated monkey, did it again and this time he critted 22 many out of 100. So the dodges don't seem to effect his crits at all. I'm dodging most of his attacks but the crits are coming on the way. So from these 2 tests I'd guess that you can't dodge a crit. But can you parry it or can he miss one of his crits? How does it work?

 

Lank

your sample size is WAY too small.

 

• Nemesis

http://tpr-wow.wiki.xs4all.nl/index....hysical_combat

other than that, 100 swings is way to small a sample

 

Sienna

Yes I know. I told my friend that we need at least a 1000 to figure this out. But it was a short test. Still although I was dodging many many many of his attacks, his crit rate was the same rate he has. But now I check the link and it seems everything is there. Thanks for the post.

 

Umph

No, they cannot be dodged, parried, or miss; because then those hits wouldn't be crits, they'd be a dodge, parry, or miss.

There's a bit of empirical evidence available (I think some of the proofs have even been posted around here) that suggests wow's hit types are tabular, ie..: roll 1-1000, and depending upon where your roll lands you will either hit, crit, miss, be dodged, or be parried.

 

arch

Ruro is right, that's how it works or how it seems to work anyway. I believe it can be proven with the mage skill combustion. Get a level 40 mage, pick combustion, pop it and go shoot on a 10+ level target. Your combustion will keep stacking up ultimately granting you 100% chance to crit and you will notice that those 3 charges will never be consumed as long as your spells keeps resisting (missing in this case).
There you go, a spellmiss cannot be a crit cause then combustion would have consumed charges on "resisted crits".

Same goes for melee. It's a limitation in the combat system. Intended? Who knows. Gimped? Probably.

 

Saethir

http://www.wowwiki.com/Formulas:Crit...miss_or_not.3F discusses this in detail, might want to check it out.

 

GIJebus

roll your d20 crit check

 

◊ chalon

There's more than just empirical evidence. It has been confirmed several times on the official boards that melee attacks have a single roll.

 

Northerner

Which, of course, make for some very strange mechanics in the end. It is indeed how WoW's melee physical damage works though for now.

 

sp00n

Of course crits can be dodged/parrier/missed, since dodge, parry and miss have a higher priority on the roll table than crit.
Yet first you have to kick off normal hits from the table before a crits get touched.

Go test it with a warrior who pops up recklessness and a rogue with evasion at the same time. Critrate should be ~100%, but the warrior will hardly land any swing on the rogue due to the huge dodge rate. If he lands though, it will be a crit for sure.

And btw. for magic attacks the hit table seems to be different. Here indeed a magical attack first has to be a hit, before it can be a crit (read that somewhere in the mage forums in a sticky thread).

 

Ravnac

The Game checks wether your strike is missed, parried, dodged or blocked according to the following table, then the crit "modifier" applies.

The Crit has not been parried / dodged / blocked / been missed, the Hit has :>

 

◊ Drauk

Its not a blue sticky, and incorrent in that aspect. Magical attacks works in the same way with hit/crit/"miss" (full resist). For non-binary spells there is additional check for partial resist.

Fun is for casuals

 

Quebeen

So basically if the enemy has 20% to crit and 80% to hit, but you have 80% avoidance; all his hits will be crits?

 

Ravnac

If you dodge 80 % of the attacks, the incoming hits will be calculated hits or crits.
If the enemy strike you 100 times and he lands 20 of them because of your avoidance, of the 20 there are 20 % crit and 80 % hits - you will take 4 crits.
(All "calculations" are theorectical :>)

 

sp00n

There is no such thing as "if hit, see if crit or normal hit".
As long as parry/dodge/miss does not push the table below 100%, they will eat up hits. But as soon as there is no room left for hits and you still keep on raising these stats, they will begin to eat up crits awell.
Therefore a rogue with a buffed 40% dodge chance plus a 5% parry chance plus the standard 5% miss chance AND popped up evasion should never (or really really rarely) be hit. More precisely, if an attack comes through, it will be a crit, because thats the only possibility left (or a crushing).

Therefore no, the crit has been parried/etc.

Although I have to admin, we only know that a crit has been parried because we know that the warrior had a modifier that made all of his attacks be 100% crit (recklessness).
For a mob, you cannot say that, therefore you can neither dodge/parry/miss crits nor hits, you can only avoid swings resp. attacks. ;)


Yes.

*** edit
Wrong wrong wrong, so utterly wrong.
Did you even read your own posting?

 

Emeraude

PvE & PvP combat tables are a little different, because they overlap each other for a result. If they didn't you'd probley have some very very weird combat.

A Warrior gains recklessness, which gives them a 100% chance to crit, on their table, normal hit no longer exists. All hit on their table becomes crit, so:

5% Miss chance(assuming 2-hander)
95% Hit

Becomes

5% Miss
95% Crit

A Rogue gains evasion, 50% of their chance to GET hit becomes dodge, so when someone swings at them

5% Miss
5% Parry
90% hit

becomes

5% Miss
5% Parry
40% hit
50% dodge

and when the 2 fight the Warrior's chances look like this:

5% Miss
5% Parry
40% Crit
50% Dodge

What it means for the Rogue when they engage combat is that they have a 40% chance to be crit, and a 50% chance to dodge. The Warrior's recklessness only converts their hit% into crit%, in the Rogues case, he only has a 40% chance to be hit. Furthermore, if the Rogue has more dodge, more parry, and the Warrior is wearing no hit gear, the Warrrior could very easily burn reck and never land a single attack.

Example Uber Rogue with 40% natural dodge gaining evasion:

40% Dodge
5% Parry
5% Miss
50% Hit

Rogue gains evasion, hit converts to dodge

90% Dodge
5% Parry
5% Miss

There is no hit, therefore recklessness can't convert hit to crit, and only the above results are possible.

So did the Rogue dodge a crit? Technically, no, he didn't, because there was no hit for the Warrior to convert to crit for the Rogue to actually dodge. Hit/Crit didn't actually exist, only dodge/parry/miss did. You did not actually dodge a crit(whew, I'm done rambling).

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Quebeen

Thx sp00n, btw love that site (of yours?) ;]

How does Block work into that equasion? I've actually asked this question in another post before but I'm hoping you have some insights;

I understand that with 100% to block you will be not recieve a critical hit or crushing blow, but then I wonder what happens with my example: If the mob has 80% hit 20% crit and you have 40% avoidance and 60% to block, will you be ensured of not recieving a crushing blow and/or critical hit? If not, what happens? I cant imagine getting hit without either parry, dodge or block mitigating the dmg, but you cant block criticals until 100%. So does it just ignore the 60% block and crit me anyway or something? O_o

Also... When you have 440 defense you have 0 chance to get a critical hit; does that turn those %crit into %hit?

And one last question; as a conclusion from all the above, should a tank's first goal be getting 25% block, followed by 440 defense, followed by avoidance? The stamina comes by itself on most items that will allow for the first 2 goals ofcourse ;] Thx in advance.


Edit: SP

 

Emeraude

It's rather impossible atm to answer your question, because current gear doesn't allow anyone to have avoidance that high(I think with Dreadnaught Armor and gear around the game you can get it to 78%ish or so). Theorycraft says, that if your avoidance were to get that high, your total avoidance would push crush/crit off the table. As in the only things that could happen to you are miss/dodge/block/parry. A mob thus far has never been proven to crit/crush through a shield block. The ability shield block actually turns your table into miss/dodge/block/parry artifically as long as shield block is up, which is the magical thing that prevents crits/crushes. I hope that answers your question.

Every piece of def does indeed convert crit -> hit.

You do not need 25% block to take full advantage of the shield block ability, your parry/miss/dodge rates make up for the gap you're thinking about. If you have a 20% parry/20%dodge/10% block(Natural stats) your table will look like this when you shield block:

5% miss
20% parry
20% dodge
55% block

Most tanks agree on 440 as being the magic number, it's important to remember even if you're sitting at 415, vs a 63 mob you're only looking at a 1% chance to be crit, or 1 crit in every 100 incoming swings.

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Quebeen

You couldnt have answered my question any better ;] However it did arise new questions ^^ Does the Avoidance > the Block? I thought it looked more like this;

 

Contents

1 Base Stats 2 Activate Shield Block 3 Base Stats 4 Activate Shield Block

[top] Base Stats

5% Block
20% Parry
20% Dodge

[top] Activate Shield Block

80% Block
10% Parry
10% Dodge

If this is not the case then my logic would shift into leaving % block as low as possible (whilst not hurting other tank stats, obviously) since with lower chance to block you'd see a higher chance of avoidance, thus a higher chance of ignoring the hit in total rather than partially... o_O Theorycraft ftw ;p

If your example is true, then stacking in dodge and parry you could easily accomplish something near to this;

[top] Base Stats

15% Block
35% Dodge
15% Parry

[top] Activate Shield Block

50% Block
35% Dodge
15% Parry

Which would mean that when I keep up Shield Block I'd force an avarage of 1 hit avoided and 1 hit blocked every 5 seconds O_o Are you sure its calculated that way? I've heard some tanks believe that when Shield Block is activated the Dodge and Parry get overwritten by the Shield Block, so with the above example you'd just see 15+75=90%block, and 10% to get hit, which is why you need the 25% block to be sure of 100% crit/crush avoidance ;p

If you're right; what would you consider the milestones for tanking then? 8k base unbuffed HP, 440 defence, followed by avoidance?


Edit: SP

 

sp00n

It is not completely clear yet, what shield block actually does. Does it raise the block rate by 75%? Or to 75? Or does it raise it by adding a 75% portion of your current shield block value?
At least there are some rumors that even with activated shield block there have been reported crits or crushing blows. See the other thread in this forum for more detailed analysis.


Yes, that was what I was trying to say, we only know that he dodged a crit because we know the warrior had a 100% crit chance. That means, if the rogue did not have evasion, it would have been a crit.
And btw, that 40% aren't so über. ;)

Btw, I just made a little script to show mathematically why it has to be one table roll (similar to evilempires, just with my own code *g*).
http://fortune.pytalhost.de/wow/attacks.php

 

altairian

There's actually a very easy way to prove that it is in fact the latter that's true. The 8/8 wrath bonus gives you 100% chance to parry 1 attack. Activate shield block with 8/8 wrath bonus on, and see what happens. So far in my experience, I've seen the 8/8 wrath charge used before a shield block charge every time in that situation. Considering I have over a 97% chance to block with shield block up, if block were overwriting parry then I should frequently be seeing my blocks used up before the 8/8 wrath parry.

Spoon, I don't understand how there can be any confusion about what shield block does. Open your spell book, look at your block chance. Activate shield block, and look at it again. It simply adds 75 to your chance to block (in my warrior's case, going from 22.something to 97.somthing).

edit: I suppose the only thing that might cause confusion is the fact that dodge and parry will overwrite blocks, so while my listed block chance is 97, I still dodge 15% and parry 10% (I forget my actual values) and simply block the remaining 75% with shield block up.

 

sp00n

Read those 2 threads, the exact same thing was discussed there and there was some confusion that I was referring to.

Combat Mechanics, 3.0
Shield block negating crits

 

Phixus

I did a little test: hit a warrior with 8/8 wrath till he got the "Parry" buff. Then I let a rogue Cold Blood Sinister Strike the warrior.

The warrior parried the critical strike.

q.e.d.? or is there more to it?


p.s.
will post screenshot soon.

 

Emeraude

Cold Blood convert's the Rogue's hit table to crit. 100% crit doesn't actually mean 100% chance to hit, it means hit on the Rogue's offensive table is converted to crit.

However 8-piece Wrath proc gives the Warrior 100% Parry. When this happens the Warrior loses all chances to be anything but missed/parried, the next attack somebody throws at them will miss, or it will get parried, that's all that can happen.

Adding 100% parry to the table eliminates the Rogues chance to hit on his offensive table and turns it into parry, this therefore eliminates the conversion of hit->crit from coldblood. Hence why Cold Blood SS was parried.

PvP combat is different from PvE combat. Can't stress that enough.

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