I'm considering whether I'm doing the right thing in skipping the Netherwind set, since I've seen more than one mage on these boards mention having the full set.
I'm a frost mage and my current gear (( http://ctprofiles.net/2140192 )) has +230 spell damage on the 8 armor slots. The full Netherwind set has only +204 spell damage, but gives a 10% chance on each of my Frostbolts that the next one is instant. That means, on average, that 10 Frostbolts take 24 seconds to cast instead of 25 seconds, a 4.17% DPS increase. (Or perhaps 26.5 seconds instead of 27.5 seconds, due to lag? 3.77% then.)
So what's the amount of spell damage D that I need on the non-armor slots for full Netherwind to be worth it?
25/24 * (204 + D) = 230 + D
212.5 + D/24 = 230
D = 420
Now I've been looking at the top of the top of items currently available from everything upto and including Naxxramas, and I can get to 462. But if I upgrade my pants to Leggings of the Black Blizzard I'll gain 11 spell damage and then D = 684. That's just not feasible, not even with a Flask of Supreme Power. And there's more upgrades like that available to me in the forseeable future.
I know I'm completely disregarding +mana/5sec, intellect, spirit, +crit, +hit, but can those make up for Netherwind's (severe) lack in spell damage? Or am I right in skipping the set for random items?
I would recommend creating a Netherwind profile, to see how your stats look like (to compare to what you have now). Then you can see the major differences between NW and your current set.
Anyway, 8 Netherwind is really nice in PvP.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Honestly, at this point I'd give the same advice for T2 vs. random BWL/earlyAQ epics as I would for T3 vs. random Naxx gear.
Take whatever comes.
If you find yourself at 6/8 NW or 7/8 NW, go for that last piece. If you have a good run of stuff like the Mantle, or Firemaw's belt, or the like, go for random stuff. One set might be slightly better than the other for raid DPS, but it's not THAT much of a difference, and both are solid choices.
I think a guild is best-served by having both types of mages. If you have 6 mages who all want 8/8 NW, you're going to end up with inefficient loot distribution. I think that mages in a guild approaching BWL/AQ are best-served by working out who wants 8/8 NW and who will cobble together non-set pieces. Three mages with 8/8 NW and three with Firemaw's Clutch, Ringo's, Blackwing Cabal, Delusional Power, etc., is far superior from a raid perspective than six mages with 4/8 NW and assorted nonset items, often occupying the same slot as their NW pieces.
Full NW is obviously an upgrade from what you have now, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's worth getting. Talk to the other Mages in your guild to see who wants what. If you don't PvP much, let the other Mages get dibs on finishing their NW (while they pass items like Ringo's to you), because you can make an excellent set without doing so, and may well save yourself some annoyance at waiting for particular drops.
As an mage in endgame I found my DPS often a race against my mana, and want to do as much damage for every point of mana I can possibly do.
With NW I would do less damage per mana, and the procc costs mana as well.
I would recommend creating a Netherwind profile, to see how your stats look like (to compare to what you have now). Then you can see the major differences between NW and your current set.
Can't argue with the increase in mana (regen), but I'm pretty much the last caster to run out of mana already.
Originally Posted by frmorrison
Anyway, 8 Netherwind is really nice in PvP.
Can't argue there either. But I don't care much for PvP at the moment.
Originally Posted by Praetorian
Three mages with 8/8 NW and three with Firemaw's Clutch, Ringo's, Blackwing Cabal, Delusional Power, etc., is far superior from a raid perspective than six mages with 4/8 NW and assorted nonset items, often occupying the same slot as their NW pieces.
Very good point. I'll just continue cobbling my gear together then. :)
8/8 Netherwind has more stamina than the OP's current gear, though, and if you're that concerned you can stack stamina gear in the non-set slots.
I see a lot of mages using 8/8 Netherwind in PvP basically because the aim of your average trinket mage in PvP is to blow away as many people as possible with sheer firepower before dying and coming back to the fray a couple of minutes later and repeating, and the Netherwind proc helps stack more damage into less time. It may not be the best possible sustained DPS gear for its tier, but it gives more burst potential.
On topic, the best possible mish-mash of set and non-set gear is going to be the min-maxed best you can get, no doubt. For most classes at most tiers of gear, 5/5 or 8/8 of a set is not the absolute best you can do (there's exceptions, of course) but it's usually perfectly adequate and easier to do than co-ordinating the exact non-set pieces with the exact set pieces. Plus some people just like collecting sets; our mages are as competitive about their relative DPS as anyone, but there's a few guys collecting their set pieces and only those anyway, while the rest let the collectors get most set pieces first and get first crack at the non-set stuff.
After doing BWL for 6 months and seeing 2 Netherwind gloves drop during that period, I pretty much gave up on the idea of 8piece Netherwind and used a mix of dmg epics (Blackwing Cabal Mana Igniting Rank12 gear ect.) that were better than Netherwind at the time. I currently still only have 5 piece for AoEing and use a mix of Enigma and hopefully soon Frostfire if it would ever drop cloth. The 2 mages with 8/8 Netherwind in my guild are still pretty much the same DPS as me with higher spell damage simply because the proc makes up for the less damage and since we are all frost even as horde mana is not a problem.
If you really have a choice between the two and guild progression isn't a concern as Praetorian mentioned, you'll almost certainly want to go with the random bits solely because it's far easier to upgrade as things become available in AQ40 and Naxxramas.
Being stuck with 7/8 NW and 1/9 Frostfire isn't a good place to be in, nor is being stuck with 8/8 NW and a few pieces of Frostfire in the bank. 8/8 NW may or may not be better than what you could get now, but 8/8 NW almost certainly won't be better than what you can get with a hodgepodge of AQ40 and early Naxx items.
Because of upgradability it's just best to look at things with the long term in mind unless you're just not expecting your guild to go anywhere.
I've decided to go down the random assortment of +dmg gear rather than 8/8 netherwind as the other mages in my guild seem quite intent on getting their full set of Tier2 and less competition between the class the better I think.
You'll find that as you have more options available within Naxx and AQ that the lack of hit, crit, damage and stats (particularly stamina) on Netherwind becomes apparent. But for the time BWL came out it was an excellent set. The 10% proc just gets too easily outpaced in my opinion, especially if you're sitting there gimping yourself waiting for that last piece to drop.
I've never really understood why some mages cling to 8/8 Netherwind even decently far into Naxxramas. I wonder if it's going to be the mage equivalent to the Earthfury 5/8 bonus.
I see a lot of mages using 8/8 Netherwind in PvP basically because the aim of your average trinket mage in PvP is to blow away as many people as possible with sheer firepower before dying and coming back to the fray a couple of minutes later and repeating, and the Netherwind proc helps stack more damage into less time. It may not be the best possible sustained DPS gear for its tier, but it gives more burst potential.
Yeah, I don't play that way anyway. I'm a crowd control mage when it comes to battlegrounds. Frost Nova, Frostbolt rank 1, Cone of Cold, Polymorph, and Iron Grenade are the name of my game. I won't be high on the kill list, but I will make damn sure the flag gets across. ;)
Back on topic: as an Alliance frost mage (yeah, yeah, easy mode), I just don't have any mana issues with my current gear. So the mana gain of getting those 5 extra items is just not in line with the DPS loss and the effort, as far as I see it. With the above comments in mind, I'll just continue hodgepodging. :)
As for loot distribution, I hadn't really considered the matter in this way. I'm our guild's mage class leader, and I have basically been advising people to only bid on the Netherwind pieces that are upgrades to them as individual items. I'm now wondering whether or not to continue in that way. We're hoping to kill Nefarian for the first time either tonight or tomorrow. So far we've seen 7 NW crowns, 4 NW pants, 4 NW bindings, 2 NW belts, and 1 NW mantle. Given that we have had a few leavers, some new members, and the way I've been advising people, no one has more than 3 pieces. It'll be weeks till we have someone with the full set, if we can get those damn gloves to drop at all.
With AQ40 at our doorstep, should I really start to work under the assumption that completing the set for someone is feasible in a reasonable time frame, or just continue as is?
If you're farming BWL but not AQ, you're right at the edge. I'd say, continue down the mix-and-match path (that's what I did, although I made the decision before the Netherwind buff a few patches back). If you loot Mish'undare, Blackwing Cabal, Ringo's, Arcane Accuracy, Firemaw's Clutch, and Leggings of the Black Blizzard, you're already doing quite well for yourself. Your stats come up a bit short compared to the full NW Mages, but you may be slightly ahead on the damagemeters (I don't remember exactly how it works out).
Unfortuntely, the front half of AQ doesn't provide many huge upgrades in terms of armor slots, but you will be happy about your decision when Enigma starts becoming available, and when your guild kills C'Thun. Everyone will be upgrading out of 8/8 NW by then, and you'll be better off with your stronger pieces left over in the remaining slots.
I just got my full NW few weeks ago almost by accident. I was already considering getting some random gear with higher +dmg's etc. but since I got both, boots and shoulders for decent dkp investment, paying few extra points to get the robe I needed to complete the set didn't seem so bad idea.
As for what goes NW in action:
High Spirit means high manaregen when compared to random gear. Otoh 8part bonus eats quite a bit of mana, so manaefficiency is pretty much the same than with the random gear. (This is with a deep 10/0/41 frostbuild designed for raiding. I haven't tried any frostbuild with pyros to use the proc most effective way)
When I calculated the amount of +dmg the proc equals, I noticed that it's worth about ~60 +dmg's with my frostbolt spam, so it's pretty much on par with to my random frostgear with Ringo's Blizzard boots and similar stuff from MC/BWL. (would loose abit if my random gear would be bwl/aq-maxed).
Why do I use it instead of random gear? I use it because I think it's funnier to play with it. With decent critrate, frostbite, clearcasting and NW proc there is always something happening, something that needs your attention to maximise your potential and damage. Since every proc has a decent change on happening, grinding goes like charm, as I rarely shoot more than 1-2 bolts without any of the nice procs. Game just doesn't seem so dull anymore :)
Is it optimal? Nope. Will it get the job done? Easily, until you hit late AQ/Naxx where you can grab better stuff. And since BWL is atleast somewhat aggrolimited, it's no use maximizing your damage too much anyway, until you hit things like Patchwerk or Loatheb.
And since BWL is atleast somewhat aggrolimited, it's no use maximizing your damage too much anyway, until you hit things like Patchwerk or Loatheb.
I disagree on that one. More damage will help you in almost all encounters in wow, and will really start helping as soon as Huhuran. Unless your MT has a tendency to get a lot of wing buffets, aggro in BWL should be no problem at all, specially as frost*. As a mage you should always maximize your damage, because thats why you are in the raid in the first place. You will gain nothing from limiting your damage compared to someone who doesn't. It does not make your water taste better or your sheep last longer. Damage is the name of the game for mages, so get as good at it as you can.
*A firemage can actually get aggro problems in bwl because of non-threat reduced frostbolts.
Congrats on neffy, must have felt good. I had my best wow-euphoria at nefarian... snif, those were time, when tanks were made of steel instead of can-openers and I still wore frigid ring...
Ninor:
We'll atleast pre-magepatch I used to be able to draw aggro from the drakes and broodlord with AM spam. Haven't actually drawn aggro since the magepatch, but I don't know if it's due to our tanks learning 2 play, or due to talent changes that introduced more aggroreduce. (and due to speccing full arcane aggroreduce over full imp. AM).
Increasing DPS in BWL makes ofc healers job easier, but it also makes tanks job harder (less room to make errors and still down the boss), so I think it's a bit 2 edged sword. And what goes for firemages having troubles with aggro... I'm pretty sure my frostmage deals more aggro than my fellow firemages because of 20% more dps due to 2.5 casttime + 6% from frost talent. Firemages do however have problems with fire vulnurable things. One of our mages managed to pull aggro at chroma about 50% in to the fight by chain critting 9k pom-pyro and few scorches after that while few fellow mages helped his ignite to grow a bit more. ~10k ignite ticks for over 10 seconds does wonders to your DPS, but causes aggro troubles aswell. The hard part of BWL is about controlling the fights, not DPS. But thats just my oppinion.
DPS starts to be an issue once you reach encounters like Huhuran, and actually already when facing Bugtrio, Sartura and Fankriss having high dps helps considerably.
The mage patch made a huge difference in regards to mages and aggro. Getting threat reduction (and every mage in your raid should have those talents!) on frost and fire spells made it near impossible to pull aggro in anything but very special occations. AM spam is a thing of the past, and should not be used at all anymore imo. Currently aggromanagement is perhaps a little too easy for mages, and really going all out after tanks have a little bit of initial aggro is relatively safe and do not give significantly less room for error. If your tank gets hit by multiple wing buffets over a period of time, he should ofcourse let the raid know so they can act accordingly. Aggromanagement for mages in its current form is more about not being stupid than anything else, and in the case of firemages hopeing that your other firemages also are not stupid.
Your fellow firemages should do more dps than you, regardless of your slightly faster casttime, but the real problem with aggro for firemages in bwl is on the drakes that are immune to fire. Spamming frostbolts with no threatreduction can be dangerous unless you are careful. Also insane ignites on vulnerable mobs ofcourse, but those are "fun deaths" anyway. As a firemage in my guild put it after being severely stomped by a Wyrmguard: "When you get those 10 and 20k ticks, you just have to close your eyes and keep going."
On a sidenote, my favorite trinket? Fetish of the sandreaver. I love it.
I'll try to fraps myself kiting tomorrow on gluth (servers permitting) to show a kiting pally.
The best trick paladins have is grouping all of the zombies together. Lay down a consecration with around 12 seconds till decimate, holy shoc/exorcism any that come after as you move to the center grate.
The BB, where being accepted matters
Originally Posted by Kazanir
This thread is hurting my self-esteem because I've never been hit on (to my knowledge) by a gay man. :/
"When you get those 10 and 20k ticks, you just have to close your eyes and keep going."
On a sidenote, my favorite trinket? Fetish of the sandreaver. I love it.
Getting ninja-PIed while i had combustion at 7 on thaddius and reaching 27k ignite made me rethink alot on what trinket ill use next time... I had TA too :x
As for 8/8 NW vs random, I went the random way, and I'm pretty happy of it. While some mages in my guild have picked up multiple FF to upgrade from 8/8 NW, they are still stuck with really bad pieces like NW helm, NW belt and NW/FF bracers(for pve anyway). In the same optic it lets me wait on stuff like FF helm and chest(when we start getting thoses) since i have enigma, where the jump from NW is much more significant... cant wait for sapphiron ;)
08/20/06, 10:05 AM
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