Shamans in cloth and other armour choices. - Page 3

Kobalt · 08/21/06, 3:48 PM

I don't get this idea that taking non set cloth isnt a good idea just because priests can only wear cloth.

Who are these priests that don't like spirit? Most of the non set cloth in aq/bwl don't have much spirit, with only empowered leggings and those shoulders off the bug family having a decent amount.

People are saying that theres no reason to take a peice of cloth when you will replace it with mail, what priest won't replace the cloth with high mana per 5 and 0 spirit with a peice of t2?

• Chicken · 08/21/06, 4:28 PM

I like spirit as much as the next Priest, but many times the spirit on some of the T2 pieces really doesn't compare to the +healing and mana/5 offered by some of the AQ non-set pieces.

If I compare RotGS with the tier 2 robe for instance, it's pretty much a clear upgrade with a realistic time spent in 5 seconds rule, the 7 mana/5 is in my opinion generally superior to the 16 spirit it costs me (They're pretty close even outside the 5 seconds rule). Not to mention that it has 13 more healing.

I still favour full tier two for the 8-piece bonus however, the extra HoT is really nice.

• Snowy · 08/21/06, 5:03 PM

I can cobble together a set with over +1000 healing and over 100 mp/5 with no drops from Naxx. There's a lot of great cloth healing items in AQ40 such as Don Rigoberto's Hat, Robes of the Guardian Saint, Bracelets of Royal Redemption, Gloves of the Messiah and Grasp of the Old God just off the top of my head. There's many different ways for priests to heal with one of them of course being chain casting low rank heals, and the AQ40 cloth pieces are absolutely delicious for it.

Amera · 08/21/06, 5:14 PM

Right, I'm not going to argue that Geta and Robes of the Guardian Saint and such aren't better than TS/SC on a fight like Patchwerk or a handful of other fights. If they're going to be DE'd and you could use them situationally? Sure, why the hell not. But you have no business taking something that is useful to you in a fraction of situations over someone who'd use it as a full-time upgrade.

There are just some boss fights where you never take physical damage so raw healing gear is technically best. But yeah, you should never take them over a class they are designed for, or even druids (if it is a cloth item). But assuming we get some more nice AQ healer items once our druids/priests have them, I'd have no issue with a paladin snagging up a few choice cloth/leather items for some fights if they want to.

Actually one thing I hope in TBC is that the durable healers really get a chance to use their mitigation in pretty much every fight outside of pvp. ~

Oneeye · 08/21/06, 5:29 PM

Reading through this thread, I'm going to make the same argument I've been making for a while, and am going to disagree with many people.

Right now, there is no hybrid. Except for maybe 2 fights total (re Loatheb, non-resable verson of c'thun), shamans are in no position to dps, tank, or do anything but heal and buff. I don't want to get into the semantics of why that is in this post, so lets not argue that. The sad fact is Mc leather, and a good portion of aq leather rivals earthshatter in +healing. This gear is the best gear available to help shamans do their job; heal. Obviosly it lacks the mp5, but the main stat that healers stack to improve their healing is +healing (I don't wear cloth for the simple reason I've never had a nice piece drop that wasn't bought up by priests).

I've also always disagreed with the Ac argument. If you want to stack gobs of Ac, all the more power too you, but besides three fights in naxx (Gothik, Noth, and Gluth), and one fight in Aq (Saurtra; Fankriss doesnt count, if you get an enraged snake you're dead anyway) ac is worthless. I cant recall the last time a healer pulled agro on any boss. Sure, it improves your survivability on trash, and anyone who tries to argue that is dead wrong, but for most boss fights, it doesn't help you or your raid at all.

I just wish we got a spirit regen talent :(. In any case, now that I'm wearing 5 piece es, I only have one leather item left anyway. For shamans just venturing into naxx or aq though, pick up the leather. You will help your raid in doing so.

• frmorrison · 08/21/06, 5:35 PM

I agree with alot what Oneeye is saying (at least for most Shaman, some pull aggro and need to have the AC).

The non-set legs and shoulders from MC alone are almost +100 healing. Of course, remember that druids/priests have priority on items, but if not, then pick it up. Another nexus crystal doesn't help the raid as much as more +healing on a good Shaman.

Shaman don't have a spirit regen talent b/c that would overpower Elemental dps specs (if it was in the tier 2/3 of resto).

Haldane · 08/21/06, 6:01 PM

Originally Posted by EllTrain

Wearing 1 peice of leather and 1 peice of cloth, I sat at 868 healing before stepping foot into naxx. Roughly 5500 armor unbuffed. Talented HW rank 4 at that +heal hits for 983 to 1045. Thats ~430 hp/s and ~8.8 hp/mana. Pretty damned good.

Really. 868 with one cloth and one leather? You aren't counting the +350 heal/use from Hibernation Crystal are you? Regardless, could you post your gear? Thanks.

♦ Oggie · 08/21/06, 8:54 PM

Originally Posted by EllTrain

That's pretty interesting. Occasionally a bug or two will jump onto our healers, but nothing serious. They don't hit hard at all. Maybe you need to have a talk with your tanks.

Quite a few shamans have mentioned pulling aggro through healing. How do you even do this? I run around with a ton of healing gear, and out-heal priests and druids on plenty of fights, and have literally never pulled aggro under normal circumstances. If you have tanks dying and the mob is running around flattening healers, you have bigger concerns than an extra 500 AC.

Well, we used to have really high aggro porcupine tanks holding onto all the bugs, and did a good job. But durring high lag, or if a healer or two got spikey aggro, or if the wrong person got rooted....

It didn't go so well.

So instead we depend on tanks just in high avoidance gear keeping 'enough' aggro, while the prot tanks are getting the snakes as they come. We eventually aoe on to clear the bug infestation, and durring that shaman -do- heal the mages/warlocks. Usually end up doing that once or twice per fight.

As for shaman getting aggro, I've just noticed that since we rarely (read: never) use TA totems, run around in a fair amount of spellcrit with AH, and our shaman are usually the spot healers of choice, we end up getting a fair amount of threat. We also tend not to downrank as much as other classes.

Short of trash, or minor adds, it's extremely rare for one of the shaman to pull aggro, but I'd rather a shaman than a priest or even a druid- odds are I can take a hit from a boss, which is one hit a priest/druid/dps did NOT take. To put it another way, I'm pretty comfortable iwth my high aggro level.

I think what myself (and others) mean when we say we pull aggro all the time is we do it much, much more often than other classes. Even if it's just us way up on the threat meter, it's worth worrying about because we don't have another option for healing- no HoTs, no fade- just more high aggro stuff. Whiel I may pull aggro 5x as often as priests, that still only works out to once every two weeks or so, and usually coincides with a NS heal after an aggro wipe or some such (damn you, noth).

Dunno, that's my read on it.

EllTrain · 08/21/06, 9:39 PM

Originally Posted by Haldane

Originally Posted by EllTrain

Wearing 1 peice of leather and 1 peice of cloth, I sat at 868 healing before stepping foot into naxx. Roughly 5500 armor unbuffed. Talented HW rank 4 at that +heal hits for 983 to 1045. Thats ~430 hp/s and ~8.8 hp/mana. Pretty damned good.

Really. 868 with one cloth and one leather? You aren't counting the +350 heal/use from Hibernation Crystal are you? Regardless, could you post your gear? Thanks.

http://ctprofiles.net/64679

That's where my gear was pre-naxx. It's at 848 healing there, I forget where the extra 20 came from.

RK · 08/21/06, 10:29 PM

Originally Posted by berg

The only non mail piece I ever really craved for PVE was the salamander legs. They are a really good item compared to peer loots.

Yes, also the only non-mail piece I have. I love my armor, I'm 1h+shield all the way, but I'm happy to sacrifice 150-200 armor for that much extra mana/5 and healing compared to any of the other available options. Besides, it helps me to not be tied to 5/8 EF, which I intend to leave behind rather shortly.

I'm seriously down on any shaman who's entirely in cloth and leather, but honestly I think it's a bit close-minded to point and laugh at a shaman or paladin with ANY leather (maybe cloth though). Not everyone has everything available to choose from (I would love to be in Ten Storms bracers/gloves/boots and EF everything else at this stage of our progression, but the drops haven't worked out that way). Our hunter and rogue class officers, who've been with us since the beginning, recently replaced blue items with Nef loot (beaststalker bp to dragonstalker, pads of the dread wolf to boots of the shadow flame). A shaman who chooses cloth and leather over his good mail is one thing, but sometimes it's a matter of what drops vs what doesn't drop.

If the priests and druids pass it and it's an upgrade to the shaman's healing power, it's bad for the raid if the shaman doesn't take it. He/she can always put mail back on for fights where there's a serious chance of being beat on, but in the meantime that extra mana regen or healing is probably helping the raid much more than 200 armor on a shaman. But that's IF the priests and druids pass it.

I can't really see myself ever taking something like Robe of the Guardian Saint anyway, just because it's cloth and it's ugly and I can do my job in EF, but mail healing chestpieces are a huge itemization hole (from Golemagg to C'Thun at a minimum) and I can understand where some would get antsy about a true upgrade in between those. I think it's the lack of non-set mail in many slots (and duplication of non-healing mail in others... ten storms legs, primalists linked legs, sartura legs wtf?) that causes the problems... I'd advise patience, and hope that your dkp system ends up rewarding your shamans' lack of upgrades with a decent stockpile to get early Naxx stuff with.

Jonno · 08/22/06, 2:22 AM

Originally Posted by EllTrain

Another thing I would like to mention. When we came into AQ, stuff like robes of the guardian saint were getting sharded on day 1. For a guild doing AQ as they are starting BWL, of course this stuff should go to priests or druids. I am saying that it's not wasted on a shaman, and has plenty more use for your guild in a shaman's pack than as a nexus crystal.

I notice you have Empowered leggings in your profile and these are one of the items I really see as a major upgrade for a Shaman in a lot of cases. They've been getting sharded since day 1 in our raid as they're pretty much sidegrade from Priest Tier 2, but for all of our shammies they're a great piece of gear situationally. I really don't see how anyone can argue about items like that - Healpoints certainly doesn't.

Sure there are issues with pack space and times when its better to have the armor, but at others, on fights when your only role is to heal and you're not at risk of taking physical damage, EF/TS/SC are not necessarily the best available options. I've never been a total min/maxer so I'll mostly stick to mail but that doesn't mean other options aren't valid.

Crowbite · 08/22/06, 8:39 AM

Also, considering that some guilds like mine have a massive shortage on druids, it's easier to get things like the wild growth spaulders vs a set of EF ones that every one of your shamans is looking for. Very solid shoulders that will last you past those *gulp* TS shoulders.

james · 08/22/06, 9:02 AM

As previously stated, a paladin has nps wearing cloth - there just isn't the plate itemisation in game to match Robes of the Exalted (a Strat drop) till Redemption. Lawbringer is kind of weak, Judgement pisses away stat points on strength and +dmg/healing - 2 button press (equip shield, aura change) and you're at 5-6k armor in mostly cloth and leather. That said, it'd take a Christmas miracle to pull aggro from healing as a paladin so it's most our druids being ripped into pieces.

Nightsmoke · 08/22/06, 9:15 AM

Originally Posted by Oneeye

Reading through this thread, I'm going to make the same argument I've been making for a while, and am going to disagree with many people.

Right now, there is no hybrid. Except for maybe 2 fights total (re Loatheb, non-resable verson of c'thun), shamans are in no position to dps, tank, or do anything but heal and buff. I don't want to get into the semantics of why that is in this post, so lets not argue that. The sad fact is Mc leather, and a good portion of aq leather rivals earthshatter in +healing. This gear is the best gear available to help shamans do their job; heal. Obviosly it lacks the mp5, but the main stat that healers stack to improve their healing is +healing (I don't wear cloth for the simple reason I've never had a nice piece drop that wasn't bought up by priests).

I've also always disagreed with the Ac argument. If you want to stack gobs of Ac, all the more power too you, but besides three fights in naxx (Gothik, Noth, and Gluth), and one fight in Aq (Saurtra; Fankriss doesnt count, if you get an enraged snake you're dead anyway) ac is worthless. I cant recall the last time a healer pulled agro on any boss. Sure, it improves your survivability on trash, and anyone who tries to argue that is dead wrong, but for most boss fights, it doesn't help you or your raid at all.

I just wish we got a spirit regen talent :(. In any case, now that I'm wearing 5 piece es, I only have one leather item left anyway. For shamans just venturing into naxx or aq though, pick up the leather. You will help your raid in doing so.

Yea AC is generally worthless on the bug trio, especially when Yauj fears and a taunt resisted and you get grilled as your healing the tank on Kri way off in the corner. AC is generally worthless on Twin Emps too, because enraged bugs never ever get one or two shots in on you. AC is useless on Ouro because bug spawns after a submerge and reappearance are usually flawlessly CC'd and would never, ever hit an aggro magnet healing shaman with no deaggro. AC is also generally useless on Cthun, where ground ruptures and an odd giant claw tenticle swipe aren't midgated by AC. AC is worthless on Anub because every attempt is flawless and you as an MT healer would never ever get impaled, and people never ever die producing tiny bugs that gravitate to a healing class without an aggro dump. AC is also generally useless on Heigan when you get ported and have to run the gauntlet and low and behold there are tiny bug that are beating your face in as you wait for the splash effect to reset so you can rejoin the raid on the platform. Needless to say, the argument that AC is worthless for a healing class with no aggro dump/reduction and no invulnerability is silly. I mean its not like there are multiple encounters in the game that I could list that would show how beneficial AC is right....?

niaina · 08/22/06, 9:25 AM

From an alliance point of view, we will be getting shamans in the xpack and this thread delivers a great argument. However, I need a clarification on the aggro issue. Since pallies rarely pull aggro from healing, how often to shaman pull aggro from healing? If shaman don't pull aggro that often then let them max the +healing with cloth/leather. But if they do pull aggro then they need the armor.
From my personal point of view, we had the priest leader get upset with the pallies grabbing the robes of the guardian saint, because he wanted one of the priests to have it as a placeholder for trans chest. Which to me is being greedy. Paladins get a crappy tier 1 set that is easily beaten with blues. My paladin has done fine in MC, BWL without a single piece of lawbringer. We killed Fankriss with pallies in the Robes of the Exalted- a Baron Rivendare drop!! Why give a priest a placeholder item when the paladin will not wear something else for a long time? Nonset armor should have a very limited number of class priority tags. Be careful in automatically tagging something for a specific class when it could be more beneficial to another class despite its armor type.
Furthermore, I remember arguments over Razorgore's shoulders where healers wanted them for the extra +healing. Giving them automatically to a DPS class is no better than sharding it, since that caster will shard it anyway upon the death of chromaggus. I found that whole drama on the Mantle of the Blackwing Cabal to be loot whorism at it's worst. Since again. the non set item was used as a placeholder for a set item.