I wonder if anyone can actually answer my question well, instead of talking about paladins and tanking in BC (lol at that :<)

ps. thread Hijacking sucks, should prolly open a new one if u want a debate over TF on a paladin

I used to wield TF in MH and Pugio in OH.
Since TF became offhandable in 1.12 and initial tests with a Claw of the black Drake in MH and TF in OH while farming in Tyrs were quite favourable, I aquired a hatchet of sundered bone to give TF in OH a real try.

So I think I *should* be able to comment on your question. Sadly guild obligation and guild attendance issues made me an OT on PW again. So i cannot give you raid results yet. Hope to get some DPS results on PW next week (depends on MT attendance though). FYI with TF in MH and Pugio in OH i had a recap DPS of ca. 790 DPS when i was "PW OT skilled" (=5/36/10). Heroic Strike Spamming was not an issue.

So the best i can tell you *now* is, that my "farming DPS" (as told by recap) in Tyrs has gone up with hatchet in main and TF in OH. Used to be around 520 und now reached up to 570 (average in sessions of about 1hr combat time each, only Battleshout buffed). I know this is not a reliable benchmark, but as I am used to farm the same spot for approximately a year now I stick to a proven routine so the numbers are kinda repeatable for me and should give a hint.

Trash Mob DPS in Raids went up considerable as well, due to higher WWs and Cleaves I suppose.

I am still uncertain what hatchet in main and TF in OH will do to my DPS on single targets without aggro concerns (=PW) though.
Since Heroic Strike Spamming is highly dependant on 2 factors:
1) rage the OH can generate
2) rage efficiency of a single heroic strike.

Both of these deteriorate with TF in OH and hatchet in main.
So i really dont know what to expect in these situations.

What i can tell you though that the proc rate went down by roughly 30-40% for me. Used to proc every 6 secs (i.e. 10min combat time as reported by recap resulted in ca 100 procs), and now procs ca. every 9 sec (10 min combat time -> 60-70 procs). It still procs often enough in OH and you have to consider that the proc damage is NOT affected by the OH malus. Which makes TF a very good if not the best OH, from a strict "DPS an OH does" point of view. (rage generation aside)

Hope my impression were a help.

regards

I recently acquired my thunderfury after a year of waiting and I have a question or two. The thing is, a couple of my friends told me that the crusader enchant on the thunderfury somehow was bad, because of some tf proc reduction that I never really got a proper explanation for. So I would like to know if it is viable enchanting it with crusader for dpsing or if it actually does reduce the procrate.

After reading all, I couldnt find an answer to how good an offhand thunderfury is, assuming mh is some big one which will come with tbc.

Bloodaxis:

I think that rumor was squelched. I think you can proc thunderfury and crusader in the same swing, you can't however proc thunderfury of another damage proc like lifestealing and fiery, which was possible at one point. Not 100% sure on this, though, would like to hear other people's responses.

Plea:

TF is still one of the best offhands damage wise, if you're willing to put up with the extra agro.

I recall reading we are limited to 1 proc / swing more than once.

Agil is usually promoted because most people using TF do occasionally tank, and Crusader does almost nothing to help that at high end, whereas the avoidance from Agil is useful.

Yeah, however I don't really care that much for the extra avoidance, I can manage fine without it, and I want to actually focus on dpsing for once.

Funny, a DPS warrior has our thunderfury (not me sadly :( ) and i've not noticed him generating anymore threat while dpsing than I do.

http://forums.elitistjerks.com/viewtopic.php?id=7138

I beleive there is a distinction between beneficial procs and detrimental procs off the same swing (buff/dmg vs dmg/dmg), however I'll run through my combat logs tonight.

Use Cleaver mainhand, TF offhand for pvp. Burst damage is king, and rage is hard to come by right now due to the rage changes. TF has the worst rage gen of any serious warrior weapon. Don't waste points on a Swiftblade if you have those 2 weapons, they will be fantastic for leveling up in BC.



Hmm, on a somewhat related note, has anyone run numbers on how much 5/5 Dual-wield spec for warriors affects Thunderfury? I know plenty of warriors are going to offhand it for DPS still at 70, due to the proc ignoring offhand damage penalty and glancing blows, but should I just skip the talent altogether? I remember for a more 'normal' weapon 5/5 DW spec used to be a 5-7% DPS increase.

you dont deserve a TF sorry man

you don't deserve a forums account sorry man

Thank you for your response (and thank you Praetorian for yours as well.) I'm big into numbers (math) and game mechanics. Unfortunatly I think some of the calculations would be in the department of statistics, which I havent really taken or gotten into. I thought the Cleaver MH would be best for PvP as well, but it is/was hard to tell due to the fact of the significant decrease in the proc rate of TF while OHing it.

Now you say that the Cleaver/TF combo would be best for leveling in TBC? This is the reason I'm going for my PvP gear as I'd like to level faster. I would think though that a quicker weapon in the offhand would allow for better rage generation and also more Crits Per Minute. Now granted the OH is a set DPS, if it hit faster and you had around a 30% crit chance, I would think 1 in 3 swing of the TF would create the "perma-flurry" effect allowing you to sustain that increased DPS. With the increased speed, I'd also think that the rage generation would in improve allowing for constant bloodthirsts and Heroic Strikes (which would also be sped up.)

I know that Flurry also is superb for slow, main hand weapons as 30% of a larger number is essentially a better deal as it shaves off more time from a slow weapon than a fast weapon. I've also come across the theory that two weapons of same slow speed is the way to go as the main hand would take the 2 charges of flurrry most of the time (although, that just might be an illusion as I would think that the flurry would offset the swings.)

With both of these being said, bringing TF into the equation really jacks things up :). Though TF might not hit hard for the upper damage limit, increasing the speed it hits would mean more procs per minute on it. I am just leery (spelling?) on when the TF is outbeat in DPS comparison to other weapons as I dont know how to calculate the actual DPS of TF being that you're relying on teh proc. The great thing I see about the proc being increase is the fact that armor does not mitigate the damage unless the mob/player has NR.

Anyways, I know I've went on with this post and havent really clarrified my question. I'm trying to bring up the thoughts that are in my head and share them as perhaps it might bring up questions in other people's mind. But the one question I have for you Shik, are you suggesting using the Cleaver as OH for the PvE grind to 70?

Thanks again!

You would be best served using one of the 1.8 speed swords to offhand with a Thunderfury MH for PvE dps or grinding 1 mob at a time.

You should also consider respeccing, as with a 17/34/0 build you've basically put 17 points into the Arms tree just to get Impale, which is the most overrated talent in the game. With impale in a fury build, you're looking at a 17 talent point dump for 2-2.5% total dps increase, when things like precision, maxing out DW spec, Improved Berserker Stance, and Rampage are all much larger dps increases that don't require dumping points in talents that have no effect on your dps.

No, I'm suggesting Cleaver mainhand for BC leveling, at least solo/2-3man where you don't have the same level of buffs. Cleaver/TF has more white damage and rage gen than TF/Cleaver. Its no big deal to swap back and worth based on your preferance, I've just found on live atm that I like making every rage based attack count, and OP/WW with the Cleaver hit like a truck.

Subject to change though. I'd really like to see how the rage normalisation affects the offhand rage gen of TF's 40dps of white damage vs the 60dps HWL weapons.

Talent-wise, I agree with Andrise you should ditch impale, there are far better options avail for dps increases now, and even overpower becomes questionable, but it depends on what you are doing. I'm keeping a fair few points in prot to make running instances easier, figuring outdoors may be crowded for a bit.

As a rogue...
Currently i dont believe there is a better MH besides Gressil to move TF to an OH yet not until TBC is out. i'm pretty sure as a rogue with TF mh can keep his dps on the meters pretty well against other sword/dagger rogues.

as for enchants, i find with the fast TF, crusader wouldn't be the best option.

just a thought about that, since instant attacks are normalised, wouldn't the procrate for crusader count the normalised speed to calculate the proccrate on instant attacks, ie, 2.4 speed normalisation with swords, so 1ppm = 2.4/60=4% proc chance? instead of 1.9/60=~3,2%
not a huge increase but it's always something.

Crusader is a flat 1ppm, it's not affected by speed normalisation. Normalisation is for abilities like sinister strike, whirlwind, etc. Nothing to do with procs.

As a rogue, maybe another enchant would be better. As a warrior, dual crusader is the way to go. Especially for levelling.

And as with Shik, I'm running a bit of a random build to level with. 12/32/11 I think it is at the moment. Full tactical mastery, toughness, and last stand from prot. Really useful while doing instances, and quite helpful for levelling.

I'm curious myself as to how well a Thunderfury MH and Servo Arm OH will work. Would you be better served to OH something that has stats opposed to the Servo and it's equip? If anyone has actually tried this combo I'm interested to hear how it worked out.

Alright, I have Recap and have been doing some testing while farming in Azshara on the shores, killing the nagas for loot and money. Now I started with TF/Cleaver combo (all listings will be MH/OH order) and 17/34 impale BT build. I averaged 330 dps after aproximatly 200k total damage dealt. I then switch up for the Cleaver/TF combo and averaged about 320 dps. I only did one set of testing as I was going to respec.

I respeced 3/45/3 getting Imp Heroic Strike and Tactical Mastery in the non Fury trees. I also maxed out DW spec, imp berserker stance, picked up rampage, and full battle shout. Anyways, I wont go into the entire build. For the next few tests I did the same, charge in, make sure Battle Shout and Rampage were up, then pump out Bloodthirsts and Heroic Strikes as that's all I had the rage to do. Having Tactical Mastery I was able to charge and swap stance for the improved AP from talents and go at it. With warlord's set and talented intercept, I'd intercept the next mob and keep it going.

With TF/Cleaver combo, after 105k total damage I was at 369 DPS first try. I then tested Cleaver/TF and averaged 352 DPS after only 65k total damage (which I admit was quite low.) I didnt think i did enough damage to test it thourougly (my bags filled up and I had to sell crap :) ) so I went back and did another round. On the second atempt with TF/Cleaver I pumped out 401.7 DPS after 111k total damage (yeah I know, should have done more, but i was struggling to try to keep it up around 400 dps.) Last I did Cleaver/TF attempt with 288k total damage and averaged 434.6 DPS.

So here are the totals if you dont want to read that crap:

Impale/BT Spec
1st TF/Cleaver --> 329.7 (177k damage)
1st Cleaver/TF --> 320.0 (102k damage)

3/45/3 Spec
1st TF/Cleaver --> 360.8 (308k damage)
2nd TF/Cleaver --> 401.7 (111k damage)

1st Cleaver/TF --> 352.7 (65k damage)
2nd Cleaver/TF --> 434.6 (288k damage)


So i started to think about this... without doing WW or OP, it was just being based on Heroic Strike and Bloodthirst. Since my gear didnt change, Bloodthirst didnt change and therefor the main difference is just the Heroic Strikes. So basically with the increased AP, the HWL Cleaver was able to out DPS the proc rate of the TF while the TF was mainhanded. The only thing that throws off these calculations is the fact that I have Crusader on both weapons, so it's hard to tell with those proc'ing.

My next question for you is how do you think the combo TF/Quickblade will do? Yes you can argue what I just explained, but when testing the above, we were using a 2.9 speed weapon in the offhand, and therefor it could only crit every 2.9 seconds (or 30% faster speed.) So in theory, if you have the 1.8 speed weapon, it will ALMOST be able to crit twice as fast, making the normal attack of TF more constant and therefor alow for more procs. It's theory, but again, I dont know as I dont have the quickblade to test it.

Anyways, i doubt this matters much, but just food for thought. Any speculations, arguments, or questions would be well apreciated! :)

Oh! For the gear I was using... I was in High Warlord gear 5/6, Chromatic Boots, Eshkander's Collar, Onslaught Girdle, ZG wrist, Cloak of Unyielding Strength, Don Julio, Master Dragonslaying, Rune of the Guard Captain, Blackands Breadth, and Blastershot Launcher. Enchants were +8 AGI on helm/leggs, +3 all stats Chest, +7 STR wrist, and +15 AGI gloves.