Very interesting, thanks for providing the data. Some observations:

- Swiftblade would have slightly more Flurry procs.

- Your attacking with HS and BT is not really an issue with TF, since WW does very little, although can proc both TF and Flurry. However with the Cleaver, I would never prioritise HS before WW. I'm assuming you were using the same sequence to keep the testing as valid as possible. If you modify the ability usage to take advantage of the slow Mainhand, it will draw ahead further. HS has a significantly higher opportunity cost with a 2.9 Cleaver in terms on rage not gained, making the real cost of the HS quite close to a WW anyway.

Depending on how much fine you are having producing numbers, I'd be interested to see a set of what I would consider optimal slow MH usage.

- Kinda related to that, your testing with the impale build would show pretty bad numbers if you weren't taking advantage of WW and imp OP with Impale when you had a slow MH. I don't believe the build would outperform deep fury now, but its not going to do well with just BT and HS spamming.

I guess the point is, if you want to accurately compare the performance of different builds and weapon setups, you do need to adjust your play for that particular case. I think you are doing excellent work though.

Hmmm... Ok I have some questions. Bare with me please as I've been a Protection Spec main tank for 8 months or more. I leveled as Dual Wield, but not being able to practice that form of play for a LONG time, I havent kept up with much of the game mechanics or changes. The reason I didnt OP or Whirlwind on my tests was because I was fighting single targets on the beach of Azshara. I do not remember what level they were though, probably lower 50's. With the level being said, i'm sure the DPS would drop some? Also, they dont dodge much when I'm fighting them.

Now my question (and intrest) for you is about Whirlwind. Why would you sugest using whirlwind? I mean, it costs 25 rage, does not add extra damage, and has a long cooldown. I can see where using it against multiple mobs would DEFINATLY be better, but against a single mob? I do know that when you use Heroic Strike that you use the rage (in my case 12 because of talents) that it cost PLUS you dont gain rage from the hit. Does Whirlwind get rage from the hit? Or is it the same as Heroic Strike and not gain the rage from the hit?

Sorry to sound noob for these type of questions, but I've been only using Whirlwind in my game play when i have access rage to burn. With this crappy rage normilization, I find myself setting up Bloodthirsts and not being able to do a lot of other attacks.

I think you might have missed his point. Back in the day, a swing from your arcanite reaper would get 3.8/14 bonus damage for each AP, and have a 3.8/60 chance to proc crusader. An MS from the same weapon would get the same, even though the weapon speed didn't really affect how many MS's you could do (whereas the weapon speed affects how many autoattacks you do).

The normalisation was a change to the effective weapon speed used to calculate instant attacks, it changed to a fixed 3.3 for 2H weapons, etc. Has there been any testing done to see whether the proc chance on normalised attacks is PPM * 3.3 / 60 or PPM * weapon_speed / 60?

Whirlwind is an instant attack. When you press the button: you lose 25 rage, and you deal weapon damage to up to 4 targets. 'Weapon damage' is the base damage range on the weapon, plus any +dmg enchants, plus a portion of your attack power. Multiply that by the number of targets, and that's how much *extra* damage you're doing for 25 rage.

Overpower is similar, it only affects one target, adds a little more damage (on top of weapon damage), and costs very little rage. For 5 rage, you do a whole swing's worth of *extra* damage. This is almost always worth it, especially if you have Improved Overpower.

Heroic strike is a different kind of beast. It consumes your next 'white' (regular) attack, and turns it into a Heroic Strike. 'Yellow' (named) attacks such as Heroic Strike generate no rage, so the *real* rage cost of the Heroic Strike is 12 rage + however much that swing would have generated. Also, since heroic strike consumes the white swing, it costs you that much damage as well. Since heroic strike does weapon damage + X, and the autoattack consumed would have done weapon damage, the extra damage you are doing is really just X, and it costs 12 + Y rage. X and Y vary with your weapon damage, weapon speed, and your attack power.

As a general guide (and I'm no expert warrior) I'd aim to hit Overpower (if up), bloodthirst, whirlwind, heroic strike in that order of priority. If you are likely to pull aggro, use hamstring instead of heroic strike.

If there are multiple tanked mobs, you probably want to whirlwind and maybe cleave over bloodthirst. Cleave functions like a weak HS against a single target, but if there's a second target you're getting an extra swing's worth of damage.

Enchant proc chance is still based on weapon speed. That never changed.

Whirlwind is an additional attack, HS just adds damage to an attack already going to happen. HS also costs you all the rage that swing was going to generate.

Say for example a Cleaver attack averages 5 rage generated. HS costs you 12+5 rage effectively. WW is 25 rage, which is 8 rage more.

With a Cleaver, that 8 rage gets you an additional chance to proc flurry, and crusader, and it hits a lot harder with shout and rampage up than the bonus damage off HS. It will always be a better investment in that situation.

WW with TF is a lot more marginal though.

Just a quick question, a slight derail but it seems better than making a whole new topic for it - Has anyone in TBC seen a better tanking weapon (for a warrior) than Thunderfury yet? With MC supposedly easily small-groupable in the expansion, I'm quite interested in trying to get a TF - I've been obsessed with it forever, and I'd really like one, and my guild has easily enough elementium in the bank to make the thing should I be lucky enough to get both bindings any time this century. Now obviously, in terms of effort vs reward it's probably not worth it, but being the perfectionist that I am I don't really mind, and I'm sure I can convince guildmates to do a Garr and Geddon run every week.

So the question is, is there a better tanking weapon in TBC yet? I don't want you to tell me there's a weapon that's 99% as good you can get from a solo quest, I don't care about that. I just want to know if there is a weapon that seems better than Thunderfury for tanking available, no matter how difficult it is to get.

Heroic strike isn't generating a new attack, its just attaching to the autoattack. The autoattack does have a chance to proc flurry and crusader, HS doesn't change that. Autoattack + WW is 2 chances at each though, since WW in an instant attack.

The 8 extra rage gives you an extra attack (whirlwind vs HS) thus giving you an extra chance to proc flurry or crusader.

HS can proc flurry and crusader too of course, but that swing would have happened anyway. It doesnt give you an extra chance for a proc.

Ah ok. Yeah as soon as I started to read it I was like "Ah damn.. i feel dumb... 2 attacks means 2 chances vs 1." I'm out in Blasted Lands right now testing them both out. I am keeping Battleshout and Rampage up and staying in Berserker Stance. I Bloodthirst, WW, then Heroic Strike if I have enough rage left over and am able to Bloodthirst or WW as soon as the cooldown is up.

It is strange though... sometimes I can get into 450 dps for 4minutes of fighting with Cleaver MH.. other times im at 350 dps as the crits are landing on my Bloodthirst turns (at least this is what i think, as when I have the high DPS, i notice BT criting all the time.) I'm sitting at just above 29% crit, so not really sure.

TF main hand seems to be between 360 - 410 DPS though. I'm wondering if the fact that the TF can get "close" to the Cleaver's upper DPS range, if i were to equip a Quickblade (1.8 attack speed) in the offhand, if that would increase the "crit per minute" ration and possibly pushing the DPS higher than the 450 dps. This woudl require 40+ DPS just from the ability to pump out crits quicker.

Any thoughts? (I hope I'm not bugging any of you, it is interesting testing everything out... we can only get better from teaching ourselves!)

Alright, posting yet again!

With the information about Whirlwind that I was so dumb enough to overlook the game mechanics, and the normilization of rage, I've changed my tactic of fighting slightly. I've kept parts of it the same, poping Imp Berserker Rage and Bloodrage whenever they are up, keeping Imp Battle Shout and Rampage up, and staying in Berserker Stance.

What's new that I've been doing is hitting Bloodthirst, WW, Hamstring. If I have more than 50 rage I'll pop a Heroic Strike in there. I havent been swaping stance to OP though, so that could make a difference, although the Servant hasnt dodged much (and I rather not lose the rage eventhough I retain 25 of it.)

The reason I went with the Hamstring is for the fact it is only costing me 7 rage, it's an instant attack, adds another chance to proc TF, flury, and Crusader (using the same tactic as WW.) This is putting me 75%+ of the time around 430 DPS with full warlord's set on and a 29% crit rate and +11 to hit. This is with TF/Cleaver combo.

The Cleaver/TF combo seems like it fluctuates WAY too much to be reliable. I think i'm going to continue to grind honor to obtain a Quickblade for OH testing.

Think this got a bit lost in the other discussion - Has anyone seen a better tanking weapon than Thunderfury yet?

http://www.thottbot.com/beta?i=17343 seems like a nice option as well, and doesn't require you to be a blacksmith.

This could *) be a better tanking weapon, but keep in mind you have to be blacksmith to use one and the mats requirements are extreme.
Think tier5 raid level gear ... at least thats my impression.


*) "could", because the aggro bonus of TF is immense. Sure this sword does almost 40dps more, but keep in mind that the aggro bonus of TF is the proc damage (usually completely unmitigated) and the slow and NR debuff bonuses.

Without going into details, to overcome this a weapon needs to have a hefty DPS surplus by its own.
I'm not going to guess the proc rate of TF in fight with heavy devastate use, but I will post some data I collected last week on blasted lands servants (which I did because of another thread which inspired me to do so) when I am at home.

To followup my post now that I have access to the test data I collected in Blasted Lands (see http://forums.elitistjerks.com/viewt...273682#p273682) lets summarize.

The aggro bonus of a single TF proc comes down to 240 (debuff bonuses) + 270 damage done in DEF stance (usually completely unmitigated though sometimes resisted). Thats 510 Aggro without aggro modifiers of DEF stance and Defiance.

Heavy Devastate spam resulted in more that 11 procs a minute. Though this was done on a lvl lower mob and without using shield slam (which does NOT proc TF anylonger).

A 50 damage delta on the weapon range (of above linked sword in comparison to TF) results in additional autoattack and devastate damage. All other moves when tanking are unaffected by the weapon change (neglecting HS here but the speed difference of TF and said sword is minor in this respect). When sonsidering parry, dodge and miss rates, even with a high crit rate in buffed tanking gear the DMG factor (crit/hit/dodge/parry) the "nominal" damage on averge hits the mob should not exceed 1.2

This is neglecting glancing blows (which favour TF), blocks (which favour higher hitting weapons) and AC mitigation (which varies from mob to mob but favours TF).

At 1.6 speed this 50 damage range surplus translates to 60/1.6*50*1.2 = 2250 additional white damage.
And 50/2*25*1.2 = 1500 additional devastate damage (going by 25 devastates done in a minute, which is not unreasonable when considering revenge and shieldslam and shouts).

So we have 3750 additional aggro on a mob with 0 AC mitigation.
"Just" 7 procs a minute of TF make up for this. This is not unreasonable.

This is for single mob tanking only.
WW and Cleaves heavily favour higher hitting weapons.

While WW and cleave do favour harder hitting weapons, remember that TF can proc off each hit of a whirlwind or cleave. Of course, on many bosses (on live and in beta) aggro is not an issue, and you revert to using whichever weapon has the best mitigation on it. Assuming there is another TF in the raid, or a warrior with imp TC.