For those of you who read the official Rogue forums, you've likely already seen or known of this post. Your first thought is going to be, "Wait a second...Your name isn't the same as that level 1 Dwarf Hunter who posted it! Even more, you're not a Rogue, you're a Priest!" All true. However, I am the original author of the thread, and while I have spent more time playing my Priest as opposed to my Rogue (I have used both for raiding, never fear), Rogue mechanics have always been some of the most interesting to me in the game, which is why I decided one day to create a comprehensive guide which can be read by anyone, whether they be a long-time Rogue, a soon-to-hit 60 Rogue, or even a raid leader trying to make an informed decision as to whether or not to allow a Hemorrhage Rogue into the raid.
The entire thread below is and will remain as updated as the thread on the official Rogue forums. As new information presents itself, I will update both threads accordingly. Thank you for taking the time to read this introduction, and thank you for bearing with this thread if you've already read it. I haven't posted it here for you, but I have posted it here in the hopes of actual intelligent discussion and for those who never read the official forums, which I completely don't blame you for.
Information About Hemorrhage
As quoted from WoWWiki: "This ability is available as a Rogue talent in the Subtlety tree. It is an instant strike that deals weapon damage as well as leaving a debuff that increases physical damage dealt to the target by up to 3 (5 and 7 for rank 2 and 3 respectively). It lasts 30 charges or 15 sec, and awards 1 combo point. It has no cooldown."
The +7 damage debuff from Hemorrhage has limited raid utility. It helps your raid's physical DPS do 7 more damage per hit, and 14 more damage per critical hit up to 30 times before the Hemorrhage debuff wears off. Depending on talents and damage modifiers, the damage increase from Hemorrhage can be increased by that amount. Examples include Opportunity's 20%, Lethality's 30% crit addition, etc. Other classes' modifiers count as well. The rule of thumb when trying to find out if an ability affects Hemorrhage added damage is that if Weapon Damage is affected by the ability, the added damage from Hemorrhage will also be affected by that ability. It is also wise to remember that the added damage is affected by armor.
All that being great, the Hemorrhage debuff doesn't stack on mobs. There is no way to go over 30 charges, or increase the duration, or stack the debuff to increase added damage to 14 or 21 or whatever. Having more than one Hemorrhage Rogue in your raid can be detrimental to overall DPS, and is generally ill-advised unless your raid is heavy on melee DPS.
Even so, the debuff generally isn't completely used every time it's put up, and as well your general Hemorrhage Rogue will put out less DPS than his fellow Combat Daggers and Combat Swords/Fists/Maces builds, although he may or may not be around (possibly exceeding) your Seal Fate and 21/8/22 builds for DPS, depending on his weapons, his Attack Power, his buffs, and of course the layout of his spec.
Hemorrhage's real use is in PvP. Given its placement in the Subtlety tree next to Preparation (in 1.12, although before 1.12 Prep is in the tier below Hemorrhage), and the other PvP-like talents the Subtlety tree gives you, you've already specced for somewhat PvP decency by the time you get to it.
Hemorrhage is 35 energy for 100% weapon damage, basically translating into an instant weapon swing with a debuff attached to it. With Initiative and perhaps Dirty Deeds/Improved Cheap Shot, a Hemorrhage Rogue can generally get 5 Combo Points up and Kidney Shot or Eviscerate his opponent within the first 5 seconds or so of the encounter.
This amount of control makes a Hemorrhage Rogue a deadly force in PvP. For PvE, Hemorrhage is lackluster, especially without appropriate gearing and certain spec choices. In PvP, a Hemorrhage Rogue excels at 1 vs. 1 and has enough control to finesse many 1 vs. 2 and some 1 vs. 3 matches, depending of course on skill more than anything. Of course that's not to say that any other build doesn't have the potential to bust out those 1 vs. N matches, however Hemorrhage allows a Rogue more control over his energy and faster Combo Point generation than any other build (Seal Fate offers similar Combo Point generation, but the energy management is hardly as stellar).
With all of that said.....Be wary of speccing Hemorrhage if there is another Rogue in your guild already boasting the build, especially if he has no idea how to play it (e.g. fast weapons, shoddy spec, uses daggers, whatever), as your raid will be further crippled by your choice.
If raiding is of no consequence to you, then by all means go for it, but just remember that Hemorrhage isn't about brute force, it's about using a variety of options to finesse your opponent into the ground, and should be treated as such. This means no heroic attempts at charging into the fray like a madman as some (many...) Combat Rogues have been known to do.
Choosing Your Mainhand Weapon
So what weapons work well for Hemorrhage? Instant strikes always base their damage from your mainhand weapon in combination with your character's statistics. What this means is Hemorrhage is only good for weapons where the speed difference as opposed to the DPS difference balances out the Attack Power multiplier in the Hemorrhage calculation.
Generally a good rule of thumb to follow is a speed of 2.5 or better, with 2.8 being the easiest slow speed to find on a weapon. Just remember that for every .1 faster swing speed, you lose a rather substantial amount of damage.
Illustration of Weapon Speed Differences:
Misplaced Servo Arm
Base Minimum Damage: 128 ... Base Average Damage: 183 ... Base Maximum Damage: 238
Lethality Rank: 5
AP: 1000
Weapon Speed: 2.8
Average Hemorrhage: 383
Average Critical Hemorrhage: 881
Weapon Speed: 2.7
Average Hemorrhage: 376
Average Critical Hemorrhage: 865
In the above example, simply increasing the swing speed by .1 seconds makes a difference of 7 damage per normal hit, and 16 damage on a critical hit.
If we were to drop the speed from 2.8 to 2.4, a rather fast non-dagger swing speed, the damage difference jumps to 29 for an average hit and 67 for a critical hit. That loss of 29 damage would represent an 8% loss in instant attack damage just because you chose to use a faster weapon.
Also, here's why you don't use daggers with Hemorrhage. Ever.
Kingsfall
Base Minimum Damage: 105 ... Base Average Damage: 131.5 ... Base Maximum Damage: 158
Lethality Rank: 5
AP: 1000
Average Hemorrhage: 260
Average Critical Hemorrhage: 598
This represents a loss of over 120 damage on every normal hit compared to Misplaced Servo Arm, and an ungodly loss of damage for every critical hit. I say it again, NEVER USE DAGGERS WITH HEMORRHAGE.
Both of the above weapons come from Naxxramas, and in fact Kingsfall drops from the final boss there, being Kel'Thuzad. The fact remains that due to Hemorrhage's damage calculation being almost completely reliant on weapon speed, your damage takes a large hit when you choose to do something foolish like wielding a dagger or something silly like Eskhandar's Right Claw (1.5 speed fist weapon).
Damage Per Energy Equivalence
So you've got your weapon, but want to know what Attack Power you need for Hemorrhage to do more damage per Energy spent than a Rogue using Sinister Strike with 3/3 Aggression.
Below is the formula, derived on page 8, taken from the original non-Aggression formula on page 4.
When picking your enchants on your weapons, weapon speed is also important.
A proc's chance to proc on a weapon is based off a PPM (Procs Per Minute) system. This system bases its calculation on your weapon speed.
If your mainhand's weapon speed is 2.8, you'll have an innately larger chance to proc any given proc as opposed to a weapon with speed 1.5.
Calculation: (Innate PPM For Proc) / (60 / Weapon Speed)
For Crusader, this works out like this:
1 / (60/2.8) = 4.666% chance on every hit.
1 / (60/1.5) = 2.5% chance on every hit.
The reason why you get more procs with a slower weapon is because of instant attacks. Since Hemorrhage is the lowest costing instant attack at 35 energy, you'd be able to use Hemorrhage 17 times as opposed to Sinister Strike at 15 or Backstab at 10.
So, given 17 Hemorrhages in a minute and a 2.8 and 1.5 speed weapon:
(1-0.04666)^17 = 44% chance of not getting a proc in 17 swings, meaning a 56% chance to get a proc in 17 swings.
(1-0.025)^17 = 65% chance of not getting a proc in 17 swings, meaning a 35% chance to get a proc in 17 swings.
Notice how our faster weapon almost halved our chance of getting an extra proc every minute from instant attacks.
With Hemorrhage, most Rogues always stick to +15 Agility in the offhand, then either choose Crusader or Lifestealing for the mainhand, depending on personal preference. Others also stick +15 Agility on the mainhand if they don't like relying on procs or like straight stat bonuses. There are others still that use dual Crusader enchants because the +100 AP bonus stacks, and due to Hemorrhage not being normalized, that +200 AP can be a very powerful damage boost.
Good guide, I remember seeing it on the Rogue forums.
A suggestion would to add an example after giving a formula, like when you say, AP = 20 * Weapon Damage / Weapon Speed, you could give a weapon example, then list the AP needed.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
It doesn't make sense to factor in the +7 damage the Hemorrhage debuff gives because the Sinister Strike Rogue will receive the benefit of the debuff just like you will.
EDIT: There are a few cases where the +7 might skew things a tiny bit, such as vastly different critical strike chance between Rogues, or someone without Lethality/Aggression, but I figured that on average most Hemorrhage and Sinister Strike Rogues will have approximately the same critical strike chance in their guilds, and also that most Hemorrhage Rogues would have Lethality and most Sinister Strike Rogues would have both Lethality and Aggression.
The only case where it really matters is Aggression. Taking Aggression out of the equation takes the necessary Attack Power down by a very large amount.
I wouldn't let the small value of AP (1.2k?) that is necessary for a MSA to outscale SS fool you. There is alot missing in hemmorage builds that combat has. I can't ever seeing a time when a hemmorage build will be able to beat out the +5 weapon skill, 5% hit, 50% offhand dps, Adrenaline rush. Versus 10% AP, -300 armor, Preperation w/ CB, and Ghostly Strike when it comes to raiding atleast.
Although when it comes to balancing out PvE and PvP I choose combat maces with my MSA for both. Not to mention mace stun is pretty nice for endless grinding.
I haven't looked to hard at the new ghostly strike but does anyone know if it is energy efficient as a 21/0/30 hemo build?
Well, with an 8/21/22 build, you gain the ability to keep up a 5/5 sequence or better, and you still have Dual Wield Spec and Precision as well as Blade Flurry. The only things you miss out on are Weapon Expertise, a weapon specialization, and Adrenaline Rush in the Combat Tree. In Assassination you miss out on Relentless Strikes and Lethality. Of course, a Combat build can't keep up the CP generation you can, and must adhere to a 3/5/5 sequence. It's highly doubtful that you'd out-DPS a full Combat build, but I believe with the right amount of AP and weapons, it could be possible. However, I don't even want to consider the insanity of that equation, which would be extremely multivariable. It gives me a headache thinking about all that's required.
I don't think it would be too difficult, start with Chalon's spreadsheet and reverse. I think it would take quite a difficult selection of gear/buffs but in no way would it be impossible for hemo to beat SS.
I'm a fan of each class's *off-spec* And I'd very much like to see them work in a raid setting, but a proof of their worth needs to show the big picture and not just the selective math you want to show.
I was linked this thread from my guild's resident warrior dps wannabe (aka polocabbit).
Thanks to Taikero for the info on hemo. I specced 18/33/0 for a long time and moved to 30/21/0 for a couple of months just before 1.12. I specced 29/0/22 yesterday which seems like it will be horrible for raiding, but I wanted to give it a try. Pre-patch I used TF/Iblis, now I've pulled out CTS/TF.
I decided to not get any improved instant poisons since those are 5 wasted talents when using crit stones... (although I can't say that I don't have plenty of wasted talent points with respect to raiding in subtlety.) I chose seal fate over deadliness because finishers now scale better (hoping, but haven't done any calcs with regards to dmg per combo point vs increased ap).
I was actually hoping to focus this build around the 4/9 BS set bonus (currently at 3/9). I'm guessing that having seal fate with hemo would be a significant dmg per energy gain when compared to SS (effectively 30 energy hemo vs 35 energy SS). It'd be interesting to see how much ap/crit is needed with 4/9 BS to push a hemo build past a standard combat build. Wondering if you've done any of those calcs yet? @_@
Side note: I cried a little when I picked up 2/3 setup... but I figured it would be better than 2 more points in camo for raiding.
Any comments on the build or improvements would be great. :)
EDIT: Any calcs/thoughts around the newly available combination of hemo and seal fate are of particular interest. I was hoping to capitalize on this new combo to see what kind of raid performance could be churned out of it.
Well, with an 8/21/22 build, you gain the ability to keep up a 5/5 sequence or better .. Of course, a Combat build can't keep up the CP generation you can, and must adhere to a 3/5/5 sequence.
Hang on, I must be missing something here.
Surely a 5/5 sequence requires you to generate 10 combo points every 30 seconds (since you have no Ruthlessness to give you free combo points), and with Hemo it will take you 35 seconds. Plus another 6 seconds to generate the energy for your evisc and S'n'D, since you don't have Relentless Strikes either to make them cheaper. So I'm getting 41 seconds for a cycle that only has 30 seconds worth of S'n'D in it.
In fact I think even a 3/5/5 sequence would be beyond you, with Hemo but no Ruthlessness or Relentless Strikes. Those two talents make a much bigger contribution to your cycle than Hemo's 5 points lower energy requirement will.
I was linked this thread from my guild's resident warrior dps wannabe (aka polocabbit).
Thanks to Taikero for the info on hemo. I specced 18/33/0 for a long time and moved to 30/21/0 for a couple of months just before 1.12. I specced 29/0/22 yesterday which seems like it will be horrible for raiding, but I wanted to give it a try. Pre-patch I used TF/Iblis, now I've pulled out CTS/TF.
I decided to not get any improved instant poisons since those are 5 wasted talents when using crit stones... (although I can't say that I don't have plenty of wasted talent points with respect to raiding in subtlety.) I chose seal fate over deadliness because finishers now scale better (hoping, but haven't done any calcs with regards to dmg per combo point vs increased ap).
I was actually hoping to focus this build around the 4/9 BS set bonus (currently at 3/9). I'm guessing that having seal fate with hemo would be a significant dmg per energy gain when compared to SS (effectively 30 energy hemo vs 35 energy SS). It'd be interesting to see how much ap/crit is needed with 4/9 BS to push a hemo build past a standard combat build. Wondering if you've done any of those calcs yet? @_@
Side note: I cried a little when I picked up 2/3 setup... but I figured it would be better than 2 more points in camo for raiding.
Any comments on the build or improvements would be great. :)
EDIT: Any calcs/thoughts around the newly available combination of hemo and seal fate are of particular interest. I was hoping to capitalize on this new combo to see what kind of raid performance could be churned out of it.
You don't want to drop a point in Seal Fate for Prep with this build, and Murder is not as valuable as maxed Improved SnD and a point in Imp Poisons for this build. Sleight of Hand is, in my opinion, worthless.
I haven't done any calcs yet on Seal Fate + Hemorrhage + Ruthlessness, much less the 4/9 BS bonus, but I do know you'll be throwing out more finishers than anyone really has a right to. Also, whether that outweighs Deadliness is up in the air so far. I'll probably run some calcs eventually on it though.
Well, with an 8/21/22 build, you gain the ability to keep up a 5/5 sequence or better .. Of course, a Combat build can't keep up the CP generation you can, and must adhere to a 3/5/5 sequence.
Hang on, I must be missing something here.
Surely a 5/5 sequence requires you to generate 10 combo points every 30 seconds (since you have no Ruthlessness to give you free combo points), and with Hemo it will take you 35 seconds. Plus another 6 seconds to generate the energy for your evisc and S'n'D, since you don't have Relentless Strikes either to make them cheaper. So I'm getting 41 seconds for a cycle that only has 30 seconds worth of S'n'D in it.
In fact I think even a 3/5/5 sequence would be beyond you, with Hemo but no Ruthlessness or Relentless Strikes. Those two talents make a much bigger contribution to your cycle than Hemo's 5 points lower energy requirement will.
Well, when you're right, you're right. I hadn't really thought it out fully before. I basically assumed that the 5 energy less per CP was going to shave that down. Forgot when you lose Relentless/Ruthlessness you even that back out.
You don't want to drop a point in Seal Fate for Prep with this build, and Murder is not as valuable as maxed Improved SnD and a point in Imp Poisons for this build. Sleight of Hand is, in my opinion, worthless.
I haven't done any calcs yet on Seal Fate + Hemorrhage + Ruthlessness, much less the 4/9 BS bonus, but I do know you'll be throwing out more finishers than anyone really has a right to. Also, whether that outweighs Deadliness is up in the air so far. I'll probably run some calcs eventually on it though.
I can see that maxed out seal fate will more than likely net more raid dps. I guess i just felt bad if i maxed my 4th improved finisher in this build... lol
Is 1 point in improved poisons really worth it though? I'm making the assumption that poisons are only used for farming and raid bosses my guild has on farm. I guess my assumption is that I'll always be using 2x crit stones or some left over consecrated sharpening stones.
On the topic of sleight of hand... is it really that useless? The alternative is 2 points in camo which are essentially dead points in raiding. When I looked at sleight of hand, I saw the equivalent of 50 defense (in terms of crit reduction) and less energy spent on feinting since each feint was worth more...
Anyways, I'm about to take the twisted gimp 29/0/22 on a spin in naxx. I'll report back on any results in terms of usefulness in raids. :)
If you're never using poisons, then you really don't need any points to improve the poisons you're not using.
Sleight of Hand...If you actually need to be feinting that much, I suppose it's okay. I've never found the need to have my feint do more for me though.
I'll be interested to hear whatever results you find with 29/0/22.
Sorry for the late report- been busy and caught up in other stuff.
The one thing I will note about 29/0/22... so-many-freaking-combo-points. Overall, I like it and I probably won't respec 30/0/21 or anything. Even though there would probably be a net gain in raid dps, it really doesn't factor into account the utility gained from having prep.
I'll try to cover various topics:
Sleight of Hand: ok so I don't find myself feinting very much, partially because i don't hit as hard as a typical combat spec (unless majorly buffed - see below) and because having 2/2 sleight of hand + 5/8 BF bonus + prep + vanish is way more aggro control than I would ever need. However, I think that if you have raiding in mind with a hemo build, this is a must have. The alternative is 2 points in camo which are effectively 2 dead points. The one thing to note about sleight of hand... is that -2% chance to be crit is the same -crit modifier as 50 defense. I believe any time of melee crit starts at 2x normal damage but can go higher than that... So for the random cleaves and aggroless mobs, you do gain a bit of survivability (even if it's small).
Hemo + Seal Fate: ok... way too many combo points. Keeping up snd and using evis is too easy. Serrated blades (improved rupture) still seems to be lacking in terms of utility though, mainly because there are alternative to rogue dots (and i already take up 3 debuff slots with hemo + TF).
Improved Kidney Shot: I've found this particularly useful on multiple encounters. The extra net damage is useful and considering the quick generation of combo points, fits this build perfectly.
Prep: For most encounters, doesn't seem like I ever use this other than to get another cold blood off which isn't a really large boost in dps. However, the one place I found myself to love it was on Noth. At the second wave of adds with guardians my sequence would be: Vanish -> Cheap Shot -> Hemo -> (4-5 pt) Improved KS. Great control of the add and 9% extra damage to drop it quickly. Then on the second spawn of them Prep -> Vanish -> Cheap Shot -> Hemo -> (4-5 pt) Improved KS. Although limited in usage, having an extra "oh shit" button seems to be nice.
Overall dps: Well, I'm probably the best geared rogue in my guild, and I usually still come in second or third on the meters. Usually losing to a combat swords or a combat dagger rogue. I think it's important to note that I'm using CTS though, which is not a very optimal weapon for hemo competing against rogues with AQR and combat specced. That said, this spec is extremely gear dependent, more so than combat builds. I have a feeling that this spec can outperform most typical combat builds once you push past a certain crit/ap level. I'm hoping some 2.8 speed weapon in naxx will drop so I can get a feel for the build with a weapon with a much better energy:damage ratio compared to SS. I've also got to start shifting my gear from an agility bias to a +crit/ap bias to really see the big damage.
If I missed anything let me know, I'll try to detail the usefulness of this build in a raid setting as best I can.
I've been trying to cobble out a build myself, mostly based around pure hemo dps without focusing too much on the extra combo points. I've come up with a basic build I like (11/10/21) with what I find to be key dps talents which are low down in each tree (specifically imp SnD, relentless strikes, precision, and hemo obviously) but I'm curious where to go with the last 9 points. Here's what I've got so far: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=i0gcoZhbVZxMjobh0o
At first I'm tempted to take up to 30 in subtlety for the extra AP and hope that will be enough. It IS a good boost in damage, especially with good gear but what about the bonus from the other possible talents? It would end up like this, 11/10/30: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=i0gcoZhbVZxMjobuRq
Would 4/5 DW spec be worth sinking a lot of points in combat? Obviously it would depend on what your offhand is, but assuming an anubisath warhammer (skill ftw) I think it is questionable. Also, you have to put 5 points into combat with no dps bonus which could obviously be considered a waste. Option 2 11/19/21: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=w0gcoZhbqbbmZxMjobh0o
In assassination, would lethality even be worth the 5 points given the fairly low crit rate of hemo? I know in sword builds, its normally taken because there isn't really anything else to take, and its similar in this build, but at the same time I'm curious about the tradeoff of 2.3x crits in pure PvE compared to the extra attack power. Also, you still end up with some extra talent points after lethality, I guess you could take murder if you were in BWL, or I took vile poisons since at least the offhand should be proccing DP5.... Not sure entirely what to make of that though. The build is 20/10/21: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0ecoeZhbVZxMjobh0o
Anyone have any opinions? I just got deaths sting the other day so obviously I'm not really in line to be swapping over to hemo any time soon from combat daggers, but I've always loved hemo builds and when the weapon normalization came I was so pumped that the skill would finally begin to see some use. I was 21/3/27 for a long time with my Empyrean Demolisher (oh how I love thee, haste proc) before finally going back to daggers again.
Also if someone feels enterprising and wants to do the math as to how all the different talents would affect the dps, that'd be awesome. I feel that 5% to hit is worth the points in combat, but then again with the combat tree without all the talents working together maybe the overall bonus actually won't be so great. However I'm pretty unimpressed with any of the other talents, and so I think it might be something of a throw up.
Man, I totally called this when the first preview of rogue talents for 1.12 came out, and got a generally negative response on this board about Hemo's eventual raid viability with increasing AP levels. Now, it's suddenly a hot topic for discussion? wtf. :(
Really iTunes? Free downloads while supplies last?
In the two PvP builds, 24/3/24 and 21/3/27(I use a variation of this), why would you drop Ruthlessness? My build has Ruth 3/3 and Relentless, 2/2 Murder and 1 Vile Poison. I just dont see any point in putting 3 points into SnD for a pvp build. Even if you really wanted Imp. SnD, wouldnt it be more prudent to drop Murder and Vile for the PvP Combo Point generation?
Unless you meant it to be a hybrid build in which case I can understand it, but my rogue is an alt that I rarely PvE with, and for a pure PvP build I can't imagine any use of Imp. SnD without a mass of extra talent points.
Sorry for the late report- been busy and caught up in other stuff.
The one thing I will note about 29/0/22... so-many-freaking-combo-points. Overall, I like it and I probably won't respec 30/0/21 or anything. Even though there would probably be a net gain in raid dps, it really doesn't factor into account the utility gained from having prep.
I'll try to cover various topics:
Sleight of Hand: ok so I don't find myself feinting very much, partially because i don't hit as hard as a typical combat spec (unless majorly buffed - see below) and because having 2/2 sleight of hand + 5/8 BF bonus + prep + vanish is way more aggro control than I would ever need. However, I think that if you have raiding in mind with a hemo build, this is a must have. The alternative is 2 points in camo which are effectively 2 dead points. The one thing to note about sleight of hand... is that -2% chance to be crit is the same -crit modifier as 50 defense. I believe any time of melee crit starts at 2x normal damage but can go higher than that... So for the random cleaves and aggroless mobs, you do gain a bit of survivability (even if it's small).
Hemo + Seal Fate: ok... way too many combo points. Keeping up snd and using evis is too easy. Serrated blades (improved rupture) still seems to be lacking in terms of utility though, mainly because there are alternative to rogue dots (and i already take up 3 debuff slots with hemo + TF).
Improved Kidney Shot: I've found this particularly useful on multiple encounters. The extra net damage is useful and considering the quick generation of combo points, fits this build perfectly.
Prep: For most encounters, doesn't seem like I ever use this other than to get another cold blood off which isn't a really large boost in dps. However, the one place I found myself to love it was on Noth. At the second wave of adds with guardians my sequence would be: Vanish -> Cheap Shot -> Hemo -> (4-5 pt) Improved KS. Great control of the add and 9% extra damage to drop it quickly. Then on the second spawn of them Prep -> Vanish -> Cheap Shot -> Hemo -> (4-5 pt) Improved KS. Although limited in usage, having an extra "oh shit" button seems to be nice.
Overall dps: Well, I'm probably the best geared rogue in my guild, and I usually still come in second or third on the meters. Usually losing to a combat swords or a combat dagger rogue. I think it's important to note that I'm using CTS though, which is not a very optimal weapon for hemo competing against rogues with AQR and combat specced. That said, this spec is extremely gear dependent, more so than combat builds. I have a feeling that this spec can outperform most typical combat builds once you push past a certain crit/ap level. I'm hoping some 2.8 speed weapon in naxx will drop so I can get a feel for the build with a weapon with a much better energy:damage ratio compared to SS. I've also got to start shifting my gear from an agility bias to a +crit/ap bias to really see the big damage.
If I missed anything let me know, I'll try to detail the usefulness of this build in a raid setting as best I can.
I'll just cover your gear concerns since the rest is pretty much spot on.
AP is, as you mentioned, important to a Hemo build, as is weapon speed. As Attack Power goes up with gear and buffs, the speed difference on a weapon affects your damage output more and more, putting a weapon like CTS or CotBD (Weapons with speed 2.6) at a disadvantage to weapons with a slower speed, even weapons with a much lower damage range.
The problem with weapons for Hemo builds is there's the blue weapons up to Ravenholdt Slicer, there's Kazzak's Empyrean Demolisher, then there's nothing until AQR for solid Hemo weapons with 2.8 speed. Nightmare Blade/CTS/CotBD are decent interim weapons, but they don't scale or perform nearly as well as their counterparts.
As far as stacking crit%/AP gear goes, as long as you maintain a minimum 25% crit unbuffed, stacking other AP stuff should be fine. Don't forget +hit either (5% minimum, 10% preferred). White damage is still 50% of my overall without any Combat talents other than Imp Gouge.
I've been trying to cobble out a build myself, mostly based around pure hemo dps without focusing too much on the extra combo points. I've come up with a basic build I like (11/10/21) with what I find to be key dps talents which are low down in each tree (specifically imp SnD, relentless strikes, precision, and hemo obviously) but I'm curious where to go with the last 9 points. Here's what I've got so far: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=i0gcoZhbVZxMjobh0o
At first I'm tempted to take up to 30 in subtlety for the extra AP and hope that will be enough. It IS a good boost in damage, especially with good gear but what about the bonus from the other possible talents? It would end up like this, 11/10/30: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=i0gcoZhbVZxMjobuRq
Would 4/5 DW spec be worth sinking a lot of points in combat? Obviously it would depend on what your offhand is, but assuming an anubisath warhammer (skill ftw) I think it is questionable. Also, you have to put 5 points into combat with no dps bonus which could obviously be considered a waste. Option 2 11/19/21: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=w0gcoZhbqbbmZxMjobh0o
In assassination, would lethality even be worth the 5 points given the fairly low crit rate of hemo? I know in sword builds, its normally taken because there isn't really anything else to take, and its similar in this build, but at the same time I'm curious about the tradeoff of 2.3x crits in pure PvE compared to the extra attack power. Also, you still end up with some extra talent points after lethality, I guess you could take murder if you were in BWL, or I took vile poisons since at least the offhand should be proccing DP5.... Not sure entirely what to make of that though. The build is 20/10/21: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0ecoeZhbVZxMjobh0o
Anyone have any opinions? I just got deaths sting the other day so obviously I'm not really in line to be swapping over to hemo any time soon from combat daggers, but I've always loved hemo builds and when the weapon normalization came I was so pumped that the skill would finally begin to see some use. I was 21/3/27 for a long time with my Empyrean Demolisher (oh how I love thee, haste proc) before finally going back to daggers again.
Also if someone feels enterprising and wants to do the math as to how all the different talents would affect the dps, that'd be awesome. I feel that 5% to hit is worth the points in combat, but then again with the combat tree without all the talents working together maybe the overall bonus actually won't be so great. However I'm pretty unimpressed with any of the other talents, and so I think it might be something of a throw up.
As far as deciding goes...
I've found Deadliness to be about the best talent to sink points into as your gear progresses. The higher your AP, the better it gets, and it only gets magnified with raid buffs.
That said, you may prefer Dual Wield Spec, which is definitely a fantastic DPS boost which compares with Deadliness. That or you could try Seal Fate Hemo, which is less gear dependent than the rest so long as you have a somewhat decent crit rate.
As far as the comparison between Precision and Lethality, the answer lies in your gear. If you're under 5% hit, Precision will probably give you more. If you're over 5% hit, especially if you're pushing 10%, Lethality would probably be a better choice. I don't have Precision, but I have 5-7% hit on gear, and last night in AQ40 my white damage was still 50% of my overall damage.
Of course, you'll have to get Precision if you go with Dual Wield Spec. :)
These spec choices are all about playstyle though. Some people like being slightly more weapon dependent rather than AP dependent and spec Dual Wield Spec, others like being AP dependent and spec Deadliness. Others still like to focus on crit and go with Seal Fate Hemo. It's all about considering what your strengths are and what you want to get the best result from what you're putting in.
In the two PvP builds, 24/3/24 and 21/3/27(I use a variation of this), why would you drop Ruthlessness? My build has Ruth 3/3 and Relentless, 2/2 Murder and 1 Vile Poison. I just dont see any point in putting 3 points into SnD for a pvp build. Even if you really wanted Imp. SnD, wouldnt it be more prudent to drop Murder and Vile for the PvP Combo Point generation?
Unless you meant it to be a hybrid build in which case I can understand it, but my rogue is an alt that I rarely PvE with, and for a pure PvP build I can't imagine any use of Imp. SnD without a mass of extra talent points.
I agree that for PvP, Ruthlessness + Murder is a better option.
However, considering that a lot of Hemo Rogues raid, especially the ones with good enough gear for the spec to really matter, Imp SnD is the single easiest thing a Hemo Rogue can do to improve his raid viability. It's not mandatory of course. None of these builds are meant to be set in stone. Using your head and fitting the build to your playstyle (So long as your playstyle doesn't involve, "Hey, let's Hemo A LOT with daggers!!!") is what every Rogue should do. I've only provided a template. It's up to you to analyze your current situation and decide what will work the best for you.
When you go for Hemorrhage you already have a lot of talent points in the subtlety tree that are basically dead for DPS purposes.
Now when you invest in the combat tree you have another 5 (if you only get Precision) resp. 10 (if you go for Dual Wield Specialization) dead points, while the points in the assassination tree can all be placed such that they contribute to DPS in some way.
Which is why I would off the top of my head prefer some 21/0/30 or 29/0/22 build, most likely 21/0/30. A thorough mathematical treatment of the problem may prove me wrong.
I specced into 21/30 last week after reading a few posts on the wow rogue forums, I have unbuffed with 21/0/30 build 1132 AP, and around a 29% crit rate. I find I am able to keep a cycle of 5 SnD / 5 rupture up the entire fight. Raid buffed with bloodfury I am around 2k AP. I had a 1300 crit Hemo on patchwerk , and a 1600 crit ghostly strike on a trash mob in naxx tuesday. I was 6th on the damage meters for patchwerk, just under 610dps. My ruptures tick for around 198. I enjoy this build alot more then combat daggers. I had been using combat daggers for over a year (since vael last summer),it is a nice change of pace, and not so boring. I also like having prepartion to vanish twice on boss (or 3times on longer fights) as a better means to control my aggro, as a result I feint less, and use that energy for more yellow attacks. I use cold blooded eviscerates in place of rupture 2x (or 3) on boss fights, I had a 2900 eviscerate on patchwerk ( I haven't gotten rank 9 yet ). All and all its a fun build to play.
current build : http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=yhecoxzZZVreo0hRq
I am debating taking 3 from camo and putting them into setup to gain extra combo points.
current gear : http://ctprofiles.net/68782
08/23/06, 11:26 AM
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