For those of you who read the official Rogue forums, you've likely already seen or known of this post. Your first thought is going to be, "Wait a second...Your name isn't the same as that level 1 Dwarf Hunter who posted it! Even more, you're not a Rogue, you're a Priest!" All true. However, I am the original author of the thread, and while I have spent more time playing my Priest as opposed to my Rogue (I have used both for raiding, never fear), Rogue mechanics have always been some of the most interesting to me in the game, which is why I decided one day to create a comprehensive guide which can be read by anyone, whether they be a long-time Rogue, a soon-to-hit 60 Rogue, or even a raid leader trying to make an informed decision as to whether or not to allow a Hemorrhage Rogue into the raid.

The entire thread below is and will remain as updated as the thread on the official Rogue forums. As new information presents itself, I will update both threads accordingly. Thank you for taking the time to read this introduction, and thank you for bearing with this thread if you've already read it. I haven't posted it here for you, but I have posted it here in the hopes of actual intelligent discussion and for those who never read the official forums, which I completely don't blame you for.





Information About Hemorrhage

As quoted from WoWWiki: "This ability is available as a Rogue talent in the Subtlety tree. It is an instant strike that deals weapon damage as well as leaving a debuff that increases physical damage dealt to the target by up to 3 (5 and 7 for rank 2 and 3 respectively). It lasts 30 charges or 15 sec, and awards 1 combo point. It has no cooldown."

The +7 damage debuff from Hemorrhage has limited raid utility. It helps your raid's physical DPS do 7 more damage per hit, and 14 more damage per critical hit up to 30 times before the Hemorrhage debuff wears off. Depending on talents and damage modifiers, the damage increase from Hemorrhage can be increased by that amount. Examples include Opportunity's 20%, Lethality's 30% crit addition, etc. Other classes' modifiers count as well. The rule of thumb when trying to find out if an ability affects Hemorrhage added damage is that if Weapon Damage is affected by the ability, the added damage from Hemorrhage will also be affected by that ability. It is also wise to remember that the added damage is affected by armor.

http://forums-en.wow-europe.com/thre...p=1#post199510

All that being great, the Hemorrhage debuff doesn't stack on mobs. There is no way to go over 30 charges, or increase the duration, or stack the debuff to increase added damage to 14 or 21 or whatever. Having more than one Hemorrhage Rogue in your raid can be detrimental to overall DPS, and is generally ill-advised unless your raid is heavy on melee DPS.

Even so, the debuff generally isn't completely used every time it's put up, and as well your general Hemorrhage Rogue will put out less DPS than his fellow Combat Daggers and Combat Swords/Fists/Maces builds, although he may or may not be around (possibly exceeding) your Seal Fate and 21/8/22 builds for DPS, depending on his weapons, his Attack Power, his buffs, and of course the layout of his spec.

Hemorrhage's real use is in PvP. Given its placement in the Subtlety tree next to Preparation (in 1.12, although before 1.12 Prep is in the tier below Hemorrhage), and the other PvP-like talents the Subtlety tree gives you, you've already specced for somewhat PvP decency by the time you get to it.

Hemorrhage is 35 energy for 100% weapon damage, basically translating into an instant weapon swing with a debuff attached to it. With Initiative and perhaps Dirty Deeds/Improved Cheap Shot, a Hemorrhage Rogue can generally get 5 Combo Points up and Kidney Shot or Eviscerate his opponent within the first 5 seconds or so of the encounter.

This amount of control makes a Hemorrhage Rogue a deadly force in PvP. For PvE, Hemorrhage is lackluster, especially without appropriate gearing and certain spec choices. In PvP, a Hemorrhage Rogue excels at 1 vs. 1 and has enough control to finesse many 1 vs. 2 and some 1 vs. 3 matches, depending of course on skill more than anything. Of course that's not to say that any other build doesn't have the potential to bust out those 1 vs. N matches, however Hemorrhage allows a Rogue more control over his energy and faster Combo Point generation than any other build (Seal Fate offers similar Combo Point generation, but the energy management is hardly as stellar).

With all of that said.....Be wary of speccing Hemorrhage if there is another Rogue in your guild already boasting the build, especially if he has no idea how to play it (e.g. fast weapons, shoddy spec, uses daggers, whatever), as your raid will be further crippled by your choice.

If raiding is of no consequence to you, then by all means go for it, but just remember that Hemorrhage isn't about brute force, it's about using a variety of options to finesse your opponent into the ground, and should be treated as such. This means no heroic attempts at charging into the fray like a madman as some (many...) Combat Rogues have been known to do.





Choosing Your Mainhand Weapon

So what weapons work well for Hemorrhage? Instant strikes always base their damage from your mainhand weapon in combination with your character's statistics. What this means is Hemorrhage is only good for weapons where the speed difference as opposed to the DPS difference balances out the Attack Power multiplier in the Hemorrhage calculation.

Utility To Calculate Hemorrhage Values: http://files.filefront.com/WoW_Rogue.../fileinfo.html
(Note: Above utility requires the .NET Framework)



Hemorrhage: Weapon Damage + (Attack Power / 14) * Weapon Speed
Hemorrhage Critical: Hemorrhage Formula * (2 + Lethality Rank * 0.06)

Generally a good rule of thumb to follow is a speed of 2.5 or better, with 2.8 being the easiest slow speed to find on a weapon. Just remember that for every .1 faster swing speed, you lose a rather substantial amount of damage.

Illustration of Weapon Speed Differences:

Misplaced Servo Arm
Base Minimum Damage: 128 ... Base Average Damage: 183 ... Base Maximum Damage: 238
Lethality Rank: 5
AP: 1000

Weapon Speed: 2.8
Average Hemorrhage: 383
Average Critical Hemorrhage: 881

Weapon Speed: 2.7
Average Hemorrhage: 376
Average Critical Hemorrhage: 865

In the above example, simply increasing the swing speed by .1 seconds makes a difference of 7 damage per normal hit, and 16 damage on a critical hit.

If we were to drop the speed from 2.8 to 2.4, a rather fast non-dagger swing speed, the damage difference jumps to 29 for an average hit and 67 for a critical hit. That loss of 29 damage would represent an 8% loss in instant attack damage just because you chose to use a faster weapon.

Also, here's why you don't use daggers with Hemorrhage. Ever.

Kingsfall
Base Minimum Damage: 105 ... Base Average Damage: 131.5 ... Base Maximum Damage: 158
Lethality Rank: 5
AP: 1000

Average Hemorrhage: 260
Average Critical Hemorrhage: 598


This represents a loss of over 120 damage on every normal hit compared to Misplaced Servo Arm, and an ungodly loss of damage for every critical hit. I say it again, NEVER USE DAGGERS WITH HEMORRHAGE.

Both of the above weapons come from Naxxramas, and in fact Kingsfall drops from the final boss there, being Kel'Thuzad. The fact remains that due to Hemorrhage's damage calculation being almost completely reliant on weapon speed, your damage takes a large hit when you choose to do something foolish like wielding a dagger or something silly like Eskhandar's Right Claw (1.5 speed fist weapon).





Damage Per Energy Equivalence

So you've got your weapon, but want to know what Attack Power you need for Hemorrhage to do more damage per Energy spent than a Rogue using Sinister Strike with 3/3 Aggression.

Below is the formula, derived on page 8, taken from the original non-Aggression formula on page 4.

AP = ( 882.98 - 1.015 * (Minimum Weapon Damage + Maximum Weapon Damage) / 2 ) / ( Weapon Speed - 2.226 )

Use this formula how you wish.





Lethality vs. Deadliness

So, you want to know when Deadliness will equal the damage Lethality gives to your Hemorrhage crit?

Formula below.

AP = 20 * Weapon Damage / Weapon Speed

Use this formula how you wish.





Choosing Your Mainhand Weapon Enchant

When picking your enchants on your weapons, weapon speed is also important.

A proc's chance to proc on a weapon is based off a PPM (Procs Per Minute) system. This system bases its calculation on your weapon speed.

If your mainhand's weapon speed is 2.8, you'll have an innately larger chance to proc any given proc as opposed to a weapon with speed 1.5.

Calculation: (Innate PPM For Proc) / (60 / Weapon Speed)

For Crusader, this works out like this:

1 / (60/2.8) = 4.666% chance on every hit.
1 / (60/1.5) = 2.5% chance on every hit.

The reason why you get more procs with a slower weapon is because of instant attacks. Since Hemorrhage is the lowest costing instant attack at 35 energy, you'd be able to use Hemorrhage 17 times as opposed to Sinister Strike at 15 or Backstab at 10.

So, given 17 Hemorrhages in a minute and a 2.8 and 1.5 speed weapon:

(1-0.04666)^17 = 44% chance of not getting a proc in 17 swings, meaning a 56% chance to get a proc in 17 swings.
(1-0.025)^17 = 65% chance of not getting a proc in 17 swings, meaning a 35% chance to get a proc in 17 swings.

Notice how our faster weapon almost halved our chance of getting an extra proc every minute from instant attacks.

With Hemorrhage, most Rogues always stick to +15 Agility in the offhand, then either choose Crusader or Lifestealing for the mainhand, depending on personal preference. Others also stick +15 Agility on the mainhand if they don't like relying on procs or like straight stat bonuses. There are others still that use dual Crusader enchants because the +100 AP bonus stacks, and due to Hemorrhage not being normalized, that +200 AP can be a very powerful damage boost.





Hemorrhage PvP builds 1.12:

24/3/24
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jhxfoxkhZhZxMjobhRo

17/3/31
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jhxcoxZhZxMjohhRqo

21/3/27
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=yhxfoxkZhZxMjohhRR

30/0/21
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jhebRxzAZZxMjobh0o



Hemorrhage "Raid DPS" builds 1.12:

8/21/22
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=y0xcZhbqbbVzZxMjobhoo

0/21/30
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=yZhbqbbVzZxMjohhRq

0/27/24
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=yZhbqbbVzLbZxMjobhRo

21/0/30
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jhxfoxkZZxMjohhRq

30/0/21
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jhecoxkAZZxMjobh0o

Good guide, I remember seeing it on the Rogue forums.

A suggestion would to add an example after giving a formula, like when you say, AP = 20 * Weapon Damage / Weapon Speed, you could give a weapon example, then list the AP needed.

So using this formula on Vis'kag (100-187, 2.6 speed) would give us ...

( 882.98 - 1.015 * ( 100 + 187 ) / 2 ) / ( 2.6 - 2.226 )
or
( 882.98 - 1.015 * (287) / 2 ) / ( 0.374 )
or
( 882.98 - 145.6525 ) / ( 0.374 )
or
737.3275 / 0.374
or
1,971.464 attack power for Hemorrhage to be superior to Sinister Strike when using Vis'kag.

The reason I went and typed out the calculations verbosely is because I wanted people to be able to work out where I went wrong.

For the Misplaced Servo Arm, it's ...

( 882.98 - 1.015 * ( 128 + 238 ) / 2 ) / ( 2.8 - 2.226 )

1,214.695 attack power for Hemorrhage to be better than Sinister Strike.

I assume the calculation is ignoring the comedy +7 damage that Hemorrhage itself can give (I didn't spot it in the formula).

It doesn't make sense to factor in the +7 damage the Hemorrhage debuff gives because the Sinister Strike Rogue will receive the benefit of the debuff just like you will.

EDIT: There are a few cases where the +7 might skew things a tiny bit, such as vastly different critical strike chance between Rogues, or someone without Lethality/Aggression, but I figured that on average most Hemorrhage and Sinister Strike Rogues will have approximately the same critical strike chance in their guilds, and also that most Hemorrhage Rogues would have Lethality and most Sinister Strike Rogues would have both Lethality and Aggression.

The only case where it really matters is Aggression. Taking Aggression out of the equation takes the necessary Attack Power down by a very large amount.

Well, with an 8/21/22 build, you gain the ability to keep up a 5/5 sequence or better, and you still have Dual Wield Spec and Precision as well as Blade Flurry. The only things you miss out on are Weapon Expertise, a weapon specialization, and Adrenaline Rush in the Combat Tree. In Assassination you miss out on Relentless Strikes and Lethality. Of course, a Combat build can't keep up the CP generation you can, and must adhere to a 3/5/5 sequence. It's highly doubtful that you'd out-DPS a full Combat build, but I believe with the right amount of AP and weapons, it could be possible. However, I don't even want to consider the insanity of that equation, which would be extremely multivariable. It gives me a headache thinking about all that's required.

I don't think it would be too difficult, start with Chalon's spreadsheet and reverse. I think it would take quite a difficult selection of gear/buffs but in no way would it be impossible for hemo to beat SS.

I'm a fan of each class's *off-spec* And I'd very much like to see them work in a raid setting, but a proof of their worth needs to show the big picture and not just the selective math you want to show.

That spreadsheet is rather complex.

I have a prototype up in another thread on this forum if you miss(ed) it.

Surprisingly it seems like the DPS is very similar, which immediately makes me think I did something wrong.

Hang on, I must be missing something here.

Surely a 5/5 sequence requires you to generate 10 combo points every 30 seconds (since you have no Ruthlessness to give you free combo points), and with Hemo it will take you 35 seconds. Plus another 6 seconds to generate the energy for your evisc and S'n'D, since you don't have Relentless Strikes either to make them cheaper. So I'm getting 41 seconds for a cycle that only has 30 seconds worth of S'n'D in it.

In fact I think even a 3/5/5 sequence would be beyond you, with Hemo but no Ruthlessness or Relentless Strikes. Those two talents make a much bigger contribution to your cycle than Hemo's 5 points lower energy requirement will.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jhecoxkAZZxMjobh0o

You don't want to drop a point in Seal Fate for Prep with this build, and Murder is not as valuable as maxed Improved SnD and a point in Imp Poisons for this build. Sleight of Hand is, in my opinion, worthless.

I haven't done any calcs yet on Seal Fate + Hemorrhage + Ruthlessness, much less the 4/9 BS bonus, but I do know you'll be throwing out more finishers than anyone really has a right to. Also, whether that outweighs Deadliness is up in the air so far. I'll probably run some calcs eventually on it though.

Well, when you're right, you're right. I hadn't really thought it out fully before. I basically assumed that the 5 energy less per CP was going to shave that down. Forgot when you lose Relentless/Ruthlessness you even that back out.

If you're never using poisons, then you really don't need any points to improve the poisons you're not using.

Sleight of Hand...If you actually need to be feinting that much, I suppose it's okay. I've never found the need to have my feint do more for me though.

I'll be interested to hear whatever results you find with 29/0/22.