21/0/30 and 11/10/30 builds actually generate roughly the same damage - the Precision DPS boost is roughly matched by the Lethality DPS boost (assumes typical T2+ crit/hit rates, Rupture as finisher so no Imp Evisc). For either, optimal finisher cycle is 5 SnD, 5 Rupture (assumes 3 into Imp SnD).
Haven't looked into rigorous modeling of a 8/21/22 build yet. Would have to rework CP cycles, amongst other things.
I really need to just bite the bullet and convert CP/Cycle into a full on build DPS comparator, I think.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
I specced into 21/30 last week after reading a few posts on the wow rogue forums, I have unbuffed with 21/0/30 build 1132 AP, and around a 29% crit rate. I find I am able to keep a cycle of 5 SnD / 5 rupture up the entire fight. Raid buffed with bloodfury I am around 2k AP. I had a 1300 crit Hemo on patchwerk , and a 1600 crit ghostly strike on a trash mob in naxx tuesday. I was 6th on the damage meters for patchwerk, just under 610dps. My ruptures tick for around 198. I enjoy this build alot more then combat daggers. I had been using combat daggers for over a year (since vael last summer),it is a nice change of pace, and not so boring. I also like having prepartion to vanish twice on boss (or 3times on longer fights) as a better means to control my aggro, as a result I feint less, and use that energy for more yellow attacks. I use cold blooded eviscerates in place of rupture 2x (or 3) on boss fights, I had a 2900 eviscerate on patchwerk ( I haven't gotten rank 9 yet ). All and all its a fun build to play.
current build : http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=yhecoxzZZVreo0hRq
I am debating taking 3 from camo and putting them into setup to gain extra combo points.
current gear : http://ctprofiles.net/68782
Setup is underrated. I get random CPs all the time because of my dodges. It's even better in PvP of course. :)
I'd drop Sleight of Hand and a point in Camo and take 3/3 Setup if I were to change the build.
Also, I personally would've gone with 3/5 Improved Poisons, but that's me. :)
21/0/30 and 11/10/30 builds actually generate roughly the same damage - the Precision DPS boost is roughly matched by the Lethality DPS boost (assumes typical T2+ crit/hit rates, Rupture as finisher so no Imp Evisc). For either, optimal finisher cycle is 5 SnD, 5 Rupture (assumes 3 into Imp SnD).
Haven't looked into rigorous modeling of a 8/21/22 build yet. Would have to rework CP cycles, amongst other things.
I really need to just bite the bullet and convert CP/Cycle into a full on build DPS comparator, I think.
That's why I think Lethality is preferred over Precision in this case. Lethality gives higher crits, which is good for PvP, whereas Precision just gives you better white damage over time, which doesn't help nearly as much outside raiding.
I haven't done any testing with 8/21/22 yet myself (18/3/30 here). Respeccing would probably be cheap, but I'm waiting until I pick up some more gear before I try another build.
I just really don't like going 8 points in assassination because man does not having relentless strikes suck. Playing on my 19 rogue I sit there and use finishers and watch my energy bar be empty and cry. I do think, however, that it could come up with some pretty impressive damage. Your cycles will be harder to maintain with no relentless strikes, but this also means that using a lower CP finisher doesn't really hurt you that much. As long as you keep SnD up, and you have DW spec, the damage should come out to be fairly good, but obviously with the build you have an inherent 25 energy sink at least every 30 seconds, not counting the other finishers you'll be doing.
I just don't know how well a build can work when you have to spend a lot of extra energy on finishers, because it just seems wasteful to me.
That's why I think Lethality is preferred over Precision in this case. Lethality gives higher crits, which is good for PvP, whereas Precision just gives you better white damage over time, which doesn't help nearly as much outside raiding.
If 11/10/30 and 21/0/30 would do about the same sustained damage, 21/0/30 would not only be better in PvP but also in raiding since it has the advantage in non-sustained scenarios, e.g in-and-out fights like Firemaw and Chromaggus.
Setup is not underrated, it simply is without value if you are not getting hit. PvE fights do indeed feature situations where rogues get hit, but typically they are trivial situations, hence the disdain for the talent.
Hemo/sub builds might well be viable going forwards, the same way that deep arc might be a good mage build. At present though, let's not pretend that they are 'real' raiding builds please. You can do damage and prehaps indeed your stunlocking ability is still worth a slot over a combat dagger/sword/fist rogue but don't try to pretend that it is better damage/utility/etc all bundled into a fun package at the moment.
Setup is not underrated, it simply is without value if you are not getting hit. PvE fights do indeed feature situations where rogues get hit, but typically they are trivial situations, hence the disdain for the talent.
Hemo/sub builds might well be viable going forwards, the same way that deep arc might be a good mage build. At present though, let's not pretend that they are 'real' raiding builds please. You can do damage and prehaps indeed your stunlocking ability is still worth a slot over a combat dagger/sword/fist rogue but don't try to pretend that it is better damage/utility/etc all bundled into a fun package at the moment.
No one is pretending it's better.
It's certainly 'almost' as good though. It's viable... it's not a trash build, etc. etc.
And it DOES have a measure of utility. Full BF + FW exalted trinket etc. + Ghostly Strike (macro'd to Hemo of course) on Sartura is another little thing I found last night was extremely nice. (vs. trying to get behind a spinning add/Sartura and building CPs at 60e a throw).
Incidentally, if you pop Evasion to get 100%+ dodge, does that work? Or is it capped at ~95 or similar?
Incidentally rogues getting hit (or dodging/fully resisting for Setup procs):
- Cleaves on tons of BWL/AQ20 and some AQ40 trash.
- Sartura
- Firemaw
- Vaelestrasz
- Ragnaros
That's just off the top of my head from our progression. Basically, anywhere dodge is useful, or resistance gear, Setup can proc. Not everyone's progression content is Patch, y'know.
I haven't tried if it generates CPs from Huhu in P2 yet, as I was concentrating mostly on staying alive :P
I've not had cleaves on any of these that I rightly remember ... especially Vael? Bad position = cleave.
Don't get me wrong I kinda like Hemo as a cross spec for pvp/pve if you do a bit of both and have a sword/mace that is good enough you can do some so so damage and have good control of fights in pvp. But it still doesn't compare to the Combat builds in terms of damage output.
Setup is not underrated, it simply is without value if you are not getting hit. PvE fights do indeed feature situations where rogues get hit, but typically they are trivial situations, hence the disdain for the talent.
Hemo/sub builds might well be viable going forwards, the same way that deep arc might be a good mage build. At present though, let's not pretend that they are 'real' raiding builds please. You can do damage and prehaps indeed your stunlocking ability is still worth a slot over a combat dagger/sword/fist rogue but don't try to pretend that it is better damage/utility/etc all bundled into a fun package at the moment.
Actually they are comparable to "real" raiding builds, I have been in the top 5-6 since I respecced to Hemo last week. I nabbed 6th on Thaddius last night (with over 1150dps),and I was 2nd for noth. I think there are too many preconceptions on this build being subpar , that people aren't taking a fresh look at it. 1.12 changed Hemo to be a comparable dps build.
Actually they are comparable to "real" raiding builds, I have been in the top 5-6 since I respecced to Hemo last week. I nabbed 6th on Thaddius last night (with over 1150dps),and I was 2nd for noth. I think there are too many preconceptions on this build being subpar , that people aren't taking a fresh look at it. 1.12 changed Hemo to be a comparable dps build.
Thats because it isnt. Do the maths. You may scrape your way into top 5 with it, if you outgear other rogues in your raid group and you pot up to the hilt on farm status fights (noth), in particular ones like noth where the debuff slots arent a real issue (we have warlocks all on group dps not boss). But you're not going to hit #1 or #2 on a fight like patchwerk or loatheb where your dps really matters with it. With the gear to get top 5 as hemo, you could be hitting #1 with a proper raiding build.
[edit] Thats not to say its useless, personally i dont have a major issue with my hemo rogues provided they know how to play such that they can pull their weight in a raid. However i do feel that its still not on a par with a combat swords/daggers build, simply from looking at the dps output of the various hemo rogues my guild has had from time to time.
Fair enough :) Each to their own i suppose, im not happy unless Im top on damage meters, although my weapons are letting me down atm, (damn you C'thun, damn you to hell) as i feel i could be performing better.
We've had two rogues (both in AQ/bwl gear) spec hemo since patch, then spec back once we hit loatheb properly (3% yesterday, wtb darkmoon fair/ony buff) as their damage simply wasnt up to scratch on it compared to the other rogues. One has AQR other has GM sword btw :)
Sorry to bump this from death, but it has always seemed to me that Dual Wield is the mainstay of PvE dps with the importance of Relentless (more CD specific) and Glancing only 'recently' having come to light. With this in mind, why do Hemo raiding specs tend not to consider 0/30/21 variants when using Servo's etc?
Sorry to bump this from death, but it has always seemed to me that Dual Wield is the mainstay of PvE dps with the importance of Relentless (more CD specific) and Glancing only 'recently' having come to light. With this in mind, why do Hemo raiding specs tend not to consider 0/30/21 variants when using Servo's etc?
Because the 11 points in Assassination are far more important than DW spec in many ways, and because 10% AP is better than any given weapon spec talent. While the combat talents are nice, you give up a lot to take them - 11/19/21 sounds alright in theory, but in practice you're just as well off going 21/0/30.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
Sorry to bump this from death, but it has always seemed to me that Dual Wield is the mainstay of PvE dps with the importance of Relentless (more CD specific) and Glancing only 'recently' having come to light. With this in mind, why do Hemo raiding specs tend not to consider 0/30/21 variants when using Servo's etc?
Because the 11 points in Assassination are far more important than DW spec in many ways, and because 10% AP is better than any given weapon spec talent. While the combat talents are nice, you give up a lot to take them - 11/19/21 sounds alright in theory, but in practice you're just as well off going 21/0/30.
To further this, consider that in order to pick up Precision and Dual Wield Spec, you have to spec 3 points in Imp Gouge, 2 points in Lightning Reflexes, and 5 points in further filler, probably the cooldown talents if you don't mind losing out on a bit of parry. Compared to Malice, Imp SnD, Relentless Strikes, Lethality, Improved Eviscerate, Cold Blood, Poison Talents, etc...It's really not that different in the end.
08/31/06, 12:50 PM
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