Mish

So I want to min/max my PvP and PvE gear. I took Shadowpanther.net webpage and imported it into a spreadsheet. In addition to the unmodified version, I have a "DPS" version and a "PvP" version.

In my DPS version, I take stamina and resist out of the equation.

In my PvP version, I want to add weighting to Stamina and Dodge while removing weighting for +hit. This is where I'm at.

The standard AEP values are 1 Agil = 1 Stam. I would like to give Stamina a higher value for PvP, but I'm torn about how much I should go. 1.5? 2?

I would like some comments about what each of you feel the weighting should be and why?

The same question stands for items that have +Dodge %. The current value is 1 AGI = .33% Dodge.


The full equivalencies are here for those unfamiliar with this system (unlikely):

Formula: 1 Agility = 1 Stamina = 2 Strength = .1% Crit. = 5 Defense = .33% Dodge = .2% Parry = .13% To Hit = 2 Attack Power = 4 Any Resistance = 5 Health/5 Sec. = 50 Armor

Mishana, 80 UD Rogue, Lightning's Blade (US)

 

exog

why remove +hit in pvp?
it still removes white misses in pvp too afaik.

 

◊ chalon

The issue with any equivalence system is that equivalence from a DPS point of view is a sliding scale. Even a matter of buffs or not can have a huge difference. For instance, with my current gear from a DPS point-of-view, 1 crit = about 17 AP unbuffed, but with standard raid buffs 1 crit = 22.35 AP.

 

Vhal

At some point, I'm going to be motivated enough to set up a page that calculates everything in relation to AP instead of Agi, which I (at least) find to be so much easier to handle conceptually -- Agi gives two benefits, thus scaling twice, and AP is directly convertable to raw weapon DPS.

But anyway, for PvP values...

I've done the rogue and the mage thing in PvP on a competitive server. I like stamina. I find it's less important on the rogue than the mage, though. I'm still reprioritizing everything post-1.12, but I tend to value stamina at 1-1.5 agi.

Hit is more important than any other stat up to +5. Of course, +5 is not terribly hard to get, and with 1.12 Precision becomes viable in more PvP builds (I'm currently running 16/12/23 daggers, taking 2 points in Precision to pick up Imp. Sprint in Combat). Past +5, its value drops tremendously -- it's only a white damage booster, and PvP is significantly biased towards yellow damage.

 

Maverikki

I found a page from my bookmarks that lets you play around with the weights of different stats. Seems it lacks some equipment from AQ and onward. Maybe someone interested enough could send a message to the author and update it.

http://ccgi.brogett.plus.com/cgi-bin/AEP.pl

 

probiscus

Everytime someone brings up AEP, I choke a kitten.

 

issei

AEP is at first a nice general tool/guideline and then a crutch and then a handicap

 

• Karakas

AEP is evil. It tries to assign static values to each stat, because we all know +crit/+hit don't scale up the more damage you do per hit :rolleyes:

 

Vhal

Erm, Karakas, figuring it out dynamically is kinda the point of Brogetta's calculator, linked above.

It seems to me that the two most important questions with regard to evaluating rogue gear are "How does attack power relate to crit (or hit) chance in terms of expected damage output?" and "How much expected damage output loss is justifiable to gain a certain amount of stamina?". There are, of course, many additional subtleties to it, but the actual value of the majority of pieces of gear can be determined if one has at least reasonable answers to the above questions.

Now, that said, I've never cared for quantifying the value of gear in terms of agility itself (due to it boosting both crit and AP), but find that coming up with a good relative value of AP to the other stats (crit and hit objectively, stam subjectively) is quite helpful.

 

Dakous

My 50,000 AP totally saved my life this one time Vek turned and did that one off melee beat.

Everybody is your brother until the rent comes due.

 

◊ Kalman

Too bad Brogetta's has *never* done a very good job of it.

 

sp00n

See my sig, something like Brogetta's, yet I enter the items once a month or so when something new comes up.
Still missing some sort of DPS calc though to dynamically adapt the AEP values.

Hm, sig isn't showing, here's the link: http://sp00n.pytalhost.com/wow/

 

Boevis

My 50,000 HP totally killed Razuvious this one time healers went OOM and couldn't keep the adds up.

see what I did there?

 

Mish

What do you suggest as an alternative?

Mishana, 80 UD Rogue, Lightning's Blade (US)

 

sp00n

The DPS spreadsheet.

 

Mish

I use that for doing DPS. I value stamina pretty highly for PvP though and the DPS sheet doesn't cover surviveability.

Mishana, 80 UD Rogue, Lightning's Blade (US)

 

Avair

AEP is a very easy to understand rule of thumb. It works quite well enough for what it is, an inexact formula. Yes, a DPS spreadsheet will give you better results, but AEP has the virtue of not requiring a computer to calculate.

For Raiding/PvE though, don't weight stamina too heavily. AEP was a PvP formula primarily.

 

• Maestroquark

Proved the point? That equivalence measures are bad because everything taken in extremes leaves you extremely weak?

What are you waiting for, a certain shade of green?

 

Faytte

More or less the superfluese damage in Naxx is either

A- easily survivable
B- will instantly kill you

As a result for the raider stamina, as a whole, isnt very important anymore. You'll notice the upgrade in stamina from t2 to t3 is fairly underwhelming (although the dps increase is very nice!).

Thats why as a raider i stick to the spreadsheets.

As far as Vek. Any rogue that far in the game should have

A- Enough HP to survive the uppercuts
B- The common sense to bandage before running back into melee. You can pop evasion or a healthstone if your that impatient.

Farewell, remorse: all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good.
~Paradise Lost (bk. IX, l. 171)

 

Dakous

The point was that if you could find low sta high impact epics that you WOULDN'T have enough HP to survive the uppercuts, so true equivelence doesn't exist. Boevis came up with an alternate example, too.

You said raider stamina isn't that important, but how much does uppercut do as opposed to how much HP does a raid geared rogue have? Forgetting, for a moment, BoK since 1/4th of the people playing WoW these days don't have that luxury.

And on your whole point about "things in Naxx oneshot"... how many things in MC oneshot back when that was the top instance and noone had epics from it? How many things in BWL oneshot? AQ40? But post gearing.. oh boy, you survive.

I'm sure there's no opportunity cost for dying every pull.

Everybody is your brother until the rent comes due.

 

issei

beyond spreadsheets and acronyms, you could possibly, maybe, develop a personal value metric?

 

Staarkhand

Plugging stuff into a spreadsheet and assuming you'll see that .03% increase in every situation is the new AEP.

(I love the spreadsheet, but any tool can be misused)

 

Calantus

You could of course use the spreadsheet to find relative values of the DPS stats in your current gearlevel and then figure the relative value of the survivability stats to you and make new AEP values from that. Nothing says the standard AEP values have to be set in stone, and if you modify it to your gear level and taste there's nothing wrong with the system (besides basing it on agi instead of AP or DPS).

 

Vhal

That's... the whole point.

 

issei

my point is that AEP isn't necessarily the proper baseline, nor can a static equivalency system ever really suffice. the effect of various statistics on dps, or in pvp, overall character efficacy, is never completely static, especially when you factor in personal preference.

if you really want to use AEP as the foundation for whatever reason, the above sounds like the way to do it.