Interestingly, my server seems somewhat atypical - even though our top couple guilds are reasonably successful in Naxx (8 and 5 bosses downed respectively), neither one has shown any real interest in recruiting off-server. Whether this is because they're satisfied with the local talent pool or what, I don't know, but server transfers have had a minimal effect on recruiting on Eldre'thalas - no one's really coming in, and no one's really going out.

Kalman, did something happen to your guild? Don't see any guild tag anymore. :(

They raid at 7 PM, and I can't make it home in time for raids anymore. I won't be a member of a raiding guild if I can't raid with them, so I had to leave. :(

Temporarily guildless, but the other two high-end guilds on ET raid at 9 PM, so hopefully that'll be a short condition and I can fill my profile back up before Kaubel yells at me.

edit: But, uhm, if you know any good alliance rogues who are dying to transfer, I'm sure they wouldn't mind hearing about it...

I do not see anything odd about the bleeding of guilds due to server transfers. As many have said, it's the same issue that every mid-level raiding guild suffers due to bleeding from guilds more advanced then they.

The only change is, now the guilds that were once the top of the heap are mid-grade in comparison to more advanced servers.

After leaving Michad's old guild, I decided to help some real life friends build their guild up. After raiding MC with them for several months (ugh) and gearing folks up we've just started to poke our heads into BWL. As soon as we started getting folks into full tier 1, officers from higher guilds begain actively recruiting our members.

Yes, even TE attempted to recruit. In fact, TE's application page used to say (paraphrasing since it was changed to a more friendly intro) "We aren't here to gear you up or give you experience. Join a guild starting up if you want that and after you've got the gear and end game experience come back to us with an application." I'd like to note, I don't' think (or at least I hope not) that Michad was in TE officer vent going "Go out there and steal members!!". Rather, we all grouped, ran UBRS, etc. with each other. It's only natural for conversations between guildies to go "Yeah, we're busting our ass grinding through the first couple of bosses in BWL." And for anonymous higher guild member replying "You got the gear man, if you want apply to XY...we need some <class> now! You could be starting nax and clearing AQ40 next week!".

It is the unspoken rule: If your guild only recruits 60's and doesn't want to train folks...the only place to get new members is from other raiding guilds.

It's the nature of the beast and there's no way to avoid it.

I'm not sure what the solution is. Perhaps to go ahead and bite the bullet and recruit guys not so geared up or not so high level. Build loyalty by commitment to your members and focus on keeping raiding fun and not blurring issues through the appearance of "in crowds" monopolizing all the loot and the fun.

You'll still lose some. But in the end, they're not the ones you wanted any way. The sooner they jump ship the better since it means they take less guild resources with them.

Without getting into server drama, I will say you have to remember to stay commited to your members and to remember one thing, mich: I have never seen an instance where two guilds "in crowds" got together and left 1/2 their guild behind because they thought the grass would be greener that had any lasting power. I can only assume it's due to the fact that it is an action that is contrary to the guild first attitude it takes to succeed. The people willing to take such actions either do so with reservations and end up disillusioned or can be counted on to be constantly looking out for a better deal.

Hi. >__>

Kalman, good lord man, a full inbox? How does one get a hold of you? :)

I really condemn Blizzard for introducing Naxxramas before the cap was raised. I know it was meant as a method to keep those people playing who had already farmed it all endlessly and repeatedly, but it does burn out too much.

The competition factor in this game is unbelievable, where you would sell your own mother if it meant you could get that boss kill before someone else. And even on silly little PvE realms they are chasing after the Naxx kills.

Such as Draenor. The faction imbalance on my realm is surreal. For every Horde player there are 1.9 Alliance players, almost double. Not only that, but recent events on the realm has led some end game raiders to simply quit. They count as playing in the statistics, but they don't really.

And with the incredible hardships Naxxramas throws at those who want to try it, the amount of consumables and burnt out raiders needed are unreal. I firmly believe the instance would have been of for level 70 players, not level 60 players who live no life and can afford to raid 5 hours a day and farm 12 more for consumables.

On the very small raider base we have, there is one Naxxramas guild, with 3 other post Nef guilds who have not even taken down the Twemps, who have killed 1 boss in Naxx. One more guild, mine, has taken down Nef, but is only as far as Huhuran in AQ40.

Now natural raid progression in a steady progression guild (we raid 4 times a week, and we are happy with it that way) that has recently had their fist Nef kill dictates to move onto AQ40 for more upgrades before Naxxramas. Do keep in mind noone in our guild has Tier 2 completed. Well those that did are now in the Naxxramas guild naturally ;) I seriously do not know what goes on in the minds of people who had grabbed like 2-3 Tier 2 items and think they have seen it all and it's time for Naxxramas. At the same time said Naxxramas guild can not even recruit new people at the pace they burn them out. Yes their requirement for Healers went as low as "should preferably already have some blues". So I guess I can be lucky that the majority of our players stuck with us so far.

But it's not healthy for the raiding environment we had. We had guilds helping each other out. Lending materials, helping with guides, helping with Nightfall crafting, even interacting a great deal about recruiting "no we are not recruiting, but guild so and so are" or plainly not accepting members form guilds that were struggling already. At least 2 of the big guilds had such a codex.

Noone on the Horde faction on my realm has even seen C'Thun. The popular Naxx guild (the only I might add) has killed the Twemps only a hand full of times. They actually only killed the Twemps after they had some success in Naxx. The majority of members of 2-3 guilds have complete Tier 2. But at this rate all the key players in all the above guilds are breaking away to feed the Naxx guild, who are already at a point of not enough people following. I do not blame them for accepting those people, of course not. But yes I blame Blizz for making such gear checks in Naxx. I also blame them for the fact that our realm is officially full (of female Nightelf Hunters and female gnome Mages), so all those who applied with complete Tier 2 on another realm, could technically not move to us. So rather than let hardcore people apply to the hardcore guild, they had to burn through members of lesser progression guilds. It's sad to see your key members leave your guild. It's a lot more sad to see long term friends you made on the ralm disposed and spit out weeks later. And who are we to kid? You join the best guild on your realm and all the sudden can get your hands on Tier 3. Eventually you realize your RL can not cope with all the raiding and farming anymore. Do you shift down a gear and go back to guilds doing BWL and AQ40 or do you quit? Yes it's always quitting.

I am just blessed with such a strong guild who already faced more than the usual problems (literally everyone who ever touched a Legendary left within a weeks time to name one out of many examples). When the other BWL+ guilds were bleed out of some of their best however, it was our turn. And I would not be surprised if soon I see MC guild collapsing cause they can not make Razorgore cause their members can have a spot straight in Naxxramas instead. We lost less than the average to those guilds, but nevertheless some of our best. And as mentioned before, it just hurts when it's a Core Member.

It's a damn shame to see communities fall over Naxxramas. But maybe they would have done the same over C'Thun if anyone on our faction ever tried :P But I wish I could beat sense into each one of them. Could make them realize that the good guilds out there already toss each other the regrets that were kicked from other raiding guilds before. That new member requirements are "preferably speak some English, and aged above 8", and that Naxxramas isn't cleared right the week after you got Nef down. I wish some would have the courage to stand up and say "we are doing Twemps/ C'Thun" when really only one guild ever attempted Twemps seriously (and gave up on attempts and went Naxx instead and one day came back with their Tier 3). But ofc everyone sees the top dog guild and thinks "I should be in Naxx". Hard to comvince people that there is another instance still. I am not so much /emo about my guild. We got very far, we lost our MT without the guild progression suffering for a split second, we lost key members and we always patched up. Everyone in this guild is great (imho), we built it around a small memberbase. So when even a small amount left to the Naxx guild, we could no longer fill raids.

Don't know maybe we won't even exist in the near future, and I find that sad for all the members done. Blizz could have thought a bit further than just people who have no other intentions than to raid 24/7. Guilds on the top are forced to raid a max in order to maintain their position and get new members form other guilds to continue their meat grind. Guilds who prospered over 12 months with 4 days raiding a week and weekends used for Real Life for than anything else, do nto stand a chance at moment.

By the time 25 mans are out some of te formerly prospering guilds will hopefully have that many left to even raid a single place. But knowing all with level at different paces, some might not even make level 61, I guess the faces of most realms will significantly change. But that is yet another 2longdidnotread topic :P

There is a guild on my server who just downed Patchwerk and only raids 3 days a week.

I know, monthsbehind, but still not bad for a 3 day a week guild.

I would consider the guild I'm in #2 on our server. However, we still consistantly lose players who app to the top guild on our server. Our MT left for them, and our guild master quit and joined their guild. We had an entire month of almost no raiding because the top guild lost a few members, and everyone on the server scrambled to get those spots. Thankfully, we're doing good right now. But it really sucks when once someone gets geared, they immedietly jump to the top guild as soon as their is an opening.

On my server, my guild is the top Alliance Guild (followed extremely closely by the bitter rival #2); there is a Horde guild who is one boss ahead of us in Naxx (yes, there are servers where Horde beat Alliance in PvE!).

As for our recruiting, I have noticed a few trends:

1. Server transfers: It is uncommon for one of them to stick it out with us before quitting. Out of the 5 transfers we've had, only 1 has kept playing with any regularity.

2. Recruiting from our own server: When we recruit (mainly to fill a niche role or to get a reliable backup), we do it via the WoW Forums and typically get flooded with applicants (at least I do with Mages). We NEVER directly seek out specific candidates in other guilds, it seems that they are only too eager to assimilate with US, on the other hand. Either they're lured by loot or not "treated well" at home, I don't know, but something is making them want the transition very very badly.

3. Warriors: Warriors typically don't apply regularly - at least if they have the kind of gear we want to have on our recruits. I think it's generally accepted that tanking warriors have it very "cozy" with their current guilds and are treated well enough to where they don't feel the sudden urge for change, generally speaking.


In the past, when we were not the best Alliance guild, we did lose a few members (re: about 10 in about a year) to the best guild, but they are now defunct and most have transferred or quit (only 2 members of that guild are in our guild today).

So what is a good balance between not having too many players, but yet enough to do Naxx and each of them to raid 4 days a week (out of the 5 scheduled)? The guild I am moving into seems to have about 60 and I would be the 6th warrior I think, but they indicated that they were a couple of times short on warriors this past week alone...
They seem to be a mix of hardcore and casual/family orientation which is exactly what I am looking for, because my old guild was regressing (not getting out of BWL basically, just past the first boss in AQ and that was under the previous leadership). The new guys are doing 8 Naxx bosses and it seems that at least the officers are a bit more hardcore, again according to them.

Sure that I may burn out (sorry to hear about cases like yours), but expenses shouldn't be the problem (at least not for a long time for me - I was a very successful craftsman on my old server ), but I figured out that I'd rather integrate myself into a family oriented guild that is also hardcore enough to do Naxx, before BC; they plan to stay together and we'll take it from there, I guess...(Whereas my old guild, I am afraid that it would just fall apart now, not to mention come expansion time. There were also a lot of politics, bs and even competition on an old server, like you said, especially in a guild that went through a couple of splits). I was very loyal to my guild in the past (without expecting much in return), but now I am looking forward to recover lost ground and basically improve my raiding skills in end game and that experience (Well I was MT in BWL, but who is to say that I won't become again one in Naxx? The MT/class leader even hinted that he wants me to be capable to step in and save the day if he dies or something- he meant in a raid env lol), as well as gear (honestly, b/c my friends from top guilds on my original server are considering me lucky that with only 7/8 t2 +TF I get into a guild that does 8 bosses in Naxx). It will be also interesting to see a ...younger server lol Not only everything seems to be so quiet (I've only checked channels and AH so far) but they only have two guilds that have killed more then one boss in Naxx, compared to about 10 on my old server. In short I will miss my old friends and people I knew, but I hope to make new ones, while still enjoying raiding on a new server, this time…The decisive factors being again:

1) A mix of family oriented guild that is also hardcore enough to do Naxx- something that I was looking for (especially after months and months of seeing my friends moving into more advanced guilds + politics and splits that happened in ours)

2) The reception I got and the interaction I had with officers and members at large

3) The fact that they plan to stick together when BC happens (whereas my old gl said something, "oh we may stop everything and just level fast, but you may have to wait for me, 'cause I only raid/play 2-3 days per week". Same person wants to go back to MC and farm for a second TF or after we tried AQ once this past month, he told me that "the whole point was to show the guild that we weren't ready"?)

Happy hunting!