Please prove fury > ms for pve dps - Page 2

Dakous · 08/26/06, 8:15 PM

Originally Posted by Muraevin

Originally Posted by Thorb

People sometime make it sound as if fury was doing 1000 more dps then 2-h arm. It's alot more closer then that.

Allaince side the diffrence betweem ms and dw fury can be 300 dps, not something many would call close. I know horde side its closer, but im fairly sure it still doesnt compare.

Psh, you make it sounds like a 300 DPS difference would ever be important. It's not like there are any fights where time could ever be a factor.

(And forgive me on the last one - that's one I'm not speaking from personal experience on)

Dakous · 08/26/06, 8:15 PM

Originally Posted by Northerner

To be fair though Rane (and no, I am no lover of well-geared MS specs) the trash too does count.

Trash enraging after 1 minute killing lots of your raids, is it?

• DeeNogger · 08/26/06, 8:39 PM

asking to prove that one form of dps generation is better than another i think is a waste of time. it all boils down to the specific situation, and even more so, the specific player. Its better to discuss the pros and cons of each build, rather than try and say "yup, this one is better, no question"

my 2 cents.

Tempedsteel · 08/27/06, 6:18 AM

I know the guy they're talking about is me. So here is my two cents...my plan is the OMFG Run CTProfile that I have (yeah it's a dream set, but this is to put things into perspective). The point would be the +5% 2h dmg from 2h spec, 30.5% crit, 1366+290 ap from BS + Slayer's Crest is crazy damage enough, but in the expac if talents are not hugely unchanged (yeah I've seen the leaked talents). I'd go this same spec while adding Flurry, Imp Execute, Imp Zerker rage, and Deathwish....that of course is a dream that probably won't be possible.

The other issue here is that no matter what happens Popping Fetish trinket only lasts for 20 seconds, and after that 20 seconds I EASILY get back up to the 2nd slot on aggro, and If I'm not careful enough I'm #1 on aggro. DW Fury is a real trial and error build as far as DPS maximization goes, I can do 600+ dps all the time, but I definetly can't guarantee that I won't be dead a millisecond later. On the Lionheart helm...yeah I want it, but I'm so broke from naxx, and my time is so limited that I'm struggling to get it made again. GG to me for sharding it before my dual wield days...yeah I know I should've kept it for 2h dps back then. I just turned DW fury the beginning of this month, and after HEAVY HEAVY thinking about it I'm staying DW fury.

The only other issue is that I have so little survivalbility in PvP, but that's not much of an issue, I just throw on some normal non-hit gear to cope with it. 4.5k life doesn't last long against a tier 2 mage/GM mage. I definetly had an easier time with 2h axe, and critting for 1.5-2k crits all the time...that's mainly what I missed about 2hs. The big numbers.

Yeah I know after seeing things I should've gotten imp execute...I'll have to live with it for a bit...not a horrible talent tbh, but imp execute blows it out of the water. I usually pop skills/etc. in this order bloodrage>fetish of the sandreaver>Deathwish>Bloodfury (if I'm not getting hit) and then I keep Bloodthirst (primarily) and WW on Cooldown, and throw in HSs when I have the rage (not to drain myself rage from BT). Alot of times you have to press Esc to cancel HSs to redo Bloodthirsts.

Dakous · 08/27/06, 6:51 AM

Originally Posted by Tempedsteel

I definetly had an easier time with 2h axe, and critting for 1.5-2k crits all the time...that's mainly what I missed about 2hs. The big numbers.

(Emphasis mine) I wish someone had taken me up on that, I could have used the money.

Dakous · 08/27/06, 6:52 AM

Originally Posted by DeeNogger

asking to prove that one form of dps generation is better than another i think is a waste of time. it all boils down to the specific situation, and even more so, the specific player. Its better to discuss the pros and cons of each build, rather than try and say "yup, this one is better, no question"

Yeah guys! Remember that hemo rogue who was at the top of those damage meters that one time? C'mon? Amirite?

Tempedsteel · 08/27/06, 6:58 AM

Oh...I also heard the rumor that BT was going to be reduced to 40%.

The Mercenary · 08/27/06, 9:41 AM

Originally Posted by Tempedsteel

Oh...I also heard the rumor that BT was going to be reduced to 40%.

Until you actually see it in an upcoming patch, or the expansion...it's just that - a rumor. Don't worry about it right now...you have a few months yet. The same thing applies to all of the "leaked" talents as well. Everything is subject to change.

Gronx · 08/27/06, 10:13 AM

Also, if you have the axe, maybe try out horde 2 hand fury, with a 20/31 spec or something, with 2 hand spec + BT... Then your warlocks won't be whining about debuff slots as much either.

Rz · 08/27/06, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by The Mercenary

Originally Posted by Tempedsteel

Oh...I also heard the rumor that BT was going to be reduced to 40%.

Until you actually see it in an upcoming patch, or the expansion...it's just that - a rumor. Don't worry about it right now...you have a few months yet. The same thing applies to all of the "leaked" talents as well. Everything is subject to change.

And even if it were nerfed to 40% tomorrow, would it matter? Sure MS ranks might increase a few flat damage, but it won't take much attack power to scale past that. Rank 1 is +85 and Rank 4 is +160, and as the ranks go 40, 48, 54, 60, you'll be lucky to get 2 new ranks from 60 to 70. Getting up to +300 seems like something of a stretch, but it's possible.

MS needs 4.24 attack power to increase by 1 damage.

A 40% BT needs 2.5 attack power to increase by 1 damage.

Remember we're looking at new ranks of BoM, new ranks of SoE totem, etc., even if we are looking at 2 new ranks of MS.

Brissa · 08/27/06, 12:49 PM

Yea Bloodthirst scales alot nicer with AP than MS does.
Fully raidbuffed id already do as much damage with a BT as I do with an MS right now with Ashkandi and with a bit more gear id do more damage from BT.

Decker · 08/27/06, 1:02 PM

Although I'm sure if I did the research enough I'd find the answer...since this thread it about being lazy I figured I'd put it in here. In the situation where the warrior doesn't have a lot of +hit gear (DFT more specifically as other +hit gear may be easier to come by, and not as contested) would MS>DW? With a lower +hit cap would it be best to reach the maximum potential of one build rather then sit at the bottom of the potential of another?

This might be a bad analogy, but at what point does a DW warrior surpass a MS warrior? +hit should have a lot to do with this, no?

Ciaras · 08/27/06, 1:08 PM

Originally Posted by Tempedsteel

On the Lionheart helm...yeah I want it, but I'm so broke from naxx, and my time is so limited that I'm struggling to get it made again. GG to me for sharding it before my dual wield days...yeah I know I should've kept it for 2h dps back then. I just turned DW fury the beginning of this month, and after HEAVY HEAVY thinking about it I'm staying DW fury.

Have you tried petitioning a GM to get it put back into your inventory? If you tell them you sharded it by accident, they usually don't ask too many questions, although you can only get a few items (3, I think) repaced into your inventory. AFAIK, it shouldn't matter how long ago you sharded it either, just that you once had it.

Tempedsteel · 08/27/06, 2:24 PM

it's not really lazy...I don't have excel...and I'm just a skeptic. I've tried 3 times petitioning for it, they all say "if it didn't happen within the past few days we can't get it back to you".

Nemesism · 08/27/06, 3:09 PM

Originally Posted by Brissa

Yea Bloodthirst scales alot nicer with AP than MS does.

That ended up being one of the main reasons I spec'd over to Fury. MS seems to only scale at all with a good weapon, where as with Fury the gear and the weapons make a huge difference. Going from Full Wrath and a GM weapon to a full set of DPS gear and a GM weapon was about 50 damage on an MS if that. Going from a GM Wep to a Dark Edge was hardly noticeable as well which made me just a tad bit sad.

Tempedsteel · 08/27/06, 3:17 PM

Originally Posted by Nemesism

Originally Posted by Brissa

Yea Bloodthirst scales alot nicer with AP than MS does.

That ended up being one of the main reasons I spec'd over to Fury. MS seems to only scale at all with a good weapon, where as with Fury the gear and the weapons make a huge difference. Going from Full Wrath and a GM weapon to a full set of DPS gear and a GM weapon was about 50 damage on an MS if that. Going from a GM Wep to a Dark Edge was hardly noticeable as well which made me just a tad bit sad.

Thanks! I just don't have a clue how well it scaled. I was just a skeptic. I wish I could input my numbers into excel, but I'm unable to use it...maybe later I'll get it.

Was also wondering if crit was greater than getting more hit at some point, and what point? 12 or 14 to hit?

Nemesism · 08/27/06, 3:38 PM

Originally Posted by Tempedsteel

Was also wondering if crit was greater than getting more hit at some point, and what point? 12 or 14 to hit?

Right now I'm running with about 25% crit, 14% hit, and 1136 AP unbuffed. I generally like to stick with a balance between the three when I'm looking at gear for DW. I would say try and get as much hit that you can without sacrificing stats with AP and crit on them.

Also another thing to note is that by adding more hit you can effectively increase the hit and crit cap to grow so hit makes crit better the more of it you have.

Thorb · 08/27/06, 3:51 PM

Originally Posted by Dakous

Originally Posted by Muraevin

Originally Posted by Thorb

People sometime make it sound as if fury was doing 1000 more dps then 2-h arm. It's alot more closer then that.

Allaince side the diffrence betweem ms and dw fury can be 300 dps, not something many would call close. I know horde side its closer, but im fairly sure it still doesnt compare.

Psh, you make it sounds like a 300 DPS difference would ever be important. It's not like there are any fights where time could ever be a factor.

(And forgive me on the last one - that's one I'm not speaking from personal experience on)

It's alot less then 300 dps. You really think you do 400 dps with MS and would instantly do 700 dps if you went fury? Get real. It's less then 100 and probably less then that for horde.

Anyway one of my "point" for prefering 31arm/15prot/5fury over 31/fury/15prot/5 arm is that you lose more dps from the "optimal" spec when you go fury over arm and also lose TM (which I guess we will have to get used to for expantion if we stay dps warriors). If you are fury you lose imp heroic strike, imp overpower but more importantly deep wound/impale, a decent chunk of dps.

When arm, the only one that really hurt is imp execute.

Tempedsteel · 08/27/06, 5:25 PM

Thorb...did you used to be on burning blade? Orc Warrior? DPS? Aegis of Fire?

Tempedsteel · 08/27/06, 5:27 PM

oh, one other thing, would you use edgemasters handgaurds over gauntlets of annihiliation. I have them, but I didn't see a noticeable upgrade in damage with +12 wep skill.

Nemesism · 08/27/06, 6:22 PM

Originally Posted by Tempedsteel

oh, one other thing, would you use edgemasters handgaurds over gauntlets of annihiliation. I have them, but I didn't see a noticeable upgrade in damage with +12 wep skill.

On Bosses yes, seeing as with 12 skill you wouldn't get the damage reduction from Glancing Blows. Which is a lot greater than the crit, hit, and ap on Annihilation. For trash mobs and everything else I would use Annihilation

Dakous · 08/27/06, 7:45 PM

Originally Posted by Thorb

It's alot less then 300 dps. You really think you do 400 dps with MS and would instantly do 700 dps if you went fury? Get real. It's less then 100 and probably less then that for horde.

Raid with 20 DPSers taking a 100 less DPS optimal spec go from, say, 11k raid DPS to 9k raid DPS. I'm sure that would never be a problem. You're right. What was I thinking?

But you're right. You and me should totally tell the guy from Conquest to get real. I'm sure we also have a lot of insight to offer him on raid strats.

Originally Posted by Rz

MS needs 4.24 attack power to increase by 1 damage.

A 40% BT needs 2.5 attack power to increase by 1 damage.

I don't know about you, but running around with 1100 AP and getting what, slightly under twice that in extra damage (400 sound about right by table napkin math?).

Also ask any rogue worth their salt if they had to choose between weapon specialization OR (SnD+OH) which way they'd go. I'm also curious which scales better 5% damage on one weapon or +25% offhand (which is gonna get mileage from hit and crit again) and IAS.

I'm sure the difference is actually trivial. I'm SURE that a 31pt utility skill is equivelent to a nonutility skill. Say, paladins are exactly as good as warriors and can heal themselves, right?

Brissa · 08/27/06, 7:58 PM

Originally Posted by Tempedsteel

oh, one other thing, would you use edgemasters handgaurds over gauntlets of annihiliation. I have them, but I didn't see a noticeable upgrade in damage with +12 wep skill.

After +10 skill the benefit from skill is very marginal.
But from 0-10 you gain about 10% white damage (i think) which is pretty nice.

Brissa · 08/27/06, 8:28 PM

Originally Posted by Thorb

It's alot less then 300 dps. You really think you do 400 dps with MS and would instantly do 700 dps if you went fury? Get real. It's less then 100 and probably less then that for horde.

The big advantage of MS is that you dont have to take rogue weapons for the guilds who arent very lucky with axe drops.

Boevis · 08/27/06, 9:19 PM

Originally Posted by Brissa

Originally Posted by Tempedsteel

oh, one other thing, would you use edgemasters handgaurds over gauntlets of annihiliation. I have them, but I didn't see a noticeable upgrade in damage with +12 wep skill.

After +10 skill the benefit from skill is very marginal.
But from 0-10 you gain about 10% white damage (i think) which is pretty nice.

Being an orc he already has +5 Axes, so he's only getting about 5% more dps out of his edgemasters.

The Warrior DPS spreadsheet on these forums shows him at 712 DPS currently (I had to substitute DFT for Fetish, and Bow of Taut Sinew for Ironwood) Switching to Edgemasters gives +8.8 DPS, Switching to Annihilation gives +10.7 DPS..