Holy Shock is a lot better than it looks, and is easily worth a point from Pure of Heart or Unyielding Faith. Same goes for at least a few points in Lasting Judgement. Holy Guidance is pretty awesome, and I would certainly make an effort to get it with 35 points already in the tree. Not a fan of Improved Might on your Sanctuary paladin - with Kings and Sanctuary (and Salvation and Light, naturally), chances are slim to none that you are on Might duty.
Hmmm neither heel or onikun talents builds arent very nice to the paladin. As a paladin leader, while I generally insist they have one of sanctuary,bok,imp wisdom or imp might they do not need 3 or even all 4. Improved judgement is 2 more points in Retribution and is useful for the raid plus a significant dps boost for the paladin. Holy shock gives you extra range for bubble pulls and the woohoo I am doing dps every 30 seconds. A point or 2 in +hit is far more meaningful then increasing his defence by a massive 2 or 4 pts.
Hmmm neither heel or onikun talents builds arent very nice to the paladin. As a paladin leader, while I generally insist they have one of sanctuary,bok,imp wisdom or imp might they do not need 3 or even all 4.
Yeah, this is fine right now. But what happens when the expansion hits, you're bringing three paladins to a 25-man raid, and the only Kings guy takes a night off? It's a disaster. There pretty much has to be this level of coordination for a raiding guild in the expansion unless they have a very large number of players sitting on the bench every night.
I'm surprised that nobody seems to have mentioned the new Paladin Taunt yet:
Righteous Defense
Requires Level 20
86 Mana
40 yd range
Instant cast
12 sec cooldown
Come to the defense of a friendly target, commanding up to 3 enemies attacking the target to attack the Paladin instead.
Will this be the beginning of Paladins finally being able to tank properly?
There was never a storm crow in 'internal alpha' or elsewhere for that matter. The whole thing is just a 100% pure myth that evolves every time someone points out how wrong it is. There are, however, a couple of npcs in the game that can turn into stormcrows and fly away as part of a scripted events. The spell from the database might be the spell they use.
At risk of derailing of thread a bit: it was in there at some point, I remember Furor writing (and subsequenty being quoted all over the place) about druids being able to shapeshift and fly after he had visited Blizzard and was shown game a bit by Tigole. With bit of Google-Fu I could dig up this:
At different levels they gain the ability to shapeshift into different animals, and these animals have different abilities/pros/cons. The second I saw the shapeshift to the panther, I knew it was ON. After that I saw the shapeshift to the bear and then finally the hawk. Yes, you can fly. Heh... insanity. They can also 'dopplegang,' I guess you'd call it, into various forms of animals that are in the area they inhabit.
Dopplegang would be fairly interesting game mechanic instead of stealth but probably it was not too useful in practice compared to just giving druids stealth.
I'm very disappointed with the warrior changes. It's making me wish the expansion would never come now. Big nerf to Flurry, bad Fury talents (and any DPS warrior spots - if they will still exist will surely go to someone full arms for the 5% boost to all melee damage which Fury has nothing even COMPARABLE to), and the crowning gem, TM in prot.. My only dilemna now is whether to level up an Undead Mage or an Orc Shaman.
/emo
The only saving grace would be if Battle Shout and Commanding Shout stacked, which is very unlikely.
I'm very disappointed with the warrior changes. It's making me wish the expansion would never come now. Big nerf to Flurry, bad Fury talents (and any DPS warrior spots - if they will still exist will surely go to someone full arms for the 5% boost to all melee damage which Fury has nothing even COMPARABLE to), and the crowning gem, TM in prot.. My only dilemna now is whether to level up an Undead Mage or an Orc Shaman.
/emo
The only saving grace would be if Battle Shout and Commanding Shout stacked, which is very unlikely.
Why unlikely?
They stacked in diablo 2!
[13:49] <manly> buu: RIGHT NOW, ALL THE DATA WE HAVE IS 7.3% MULTIPLIER
[13:49] <manly> FUCK
I'm very disappointed with the warrior changes. It's making me wish the expansion would never come now. Big nerf to Flurry, bad Fury talents (and any DPS warrior spots - if they will still exist will surely go to someone full arms for the 5% boost to all melee damage which Fury has nothing even COMPARABLE to), and the crowning gem, TM in prot.. My only dilemna now is whether to level up an Undead Mage or an Orc Shaman.
/emo
The only saving grace would be if Battle Shout and Commanding Shout stacked, which is very unlikely.
Fury/prot anyone? Heard that warrior isnt pure dps class? Main concept of being a warrior turns from omgleetwtzrogueplate stuff to being able to tank and as a secondary to do dps. I'd still take 1 pure dps, 1-2 semiprots and 1 full prot, thou its a bit hard to say without knowing anything about raid encounters.
I'd say the most important non-healing raid talents you could get on a paladin are kings and lasting judgement. Of all the times I've wanted to just slap every last paladin in the raid it's mostly been because none of them have 1 or both of those talents. I'd also rate holy shock higher than you have as it's pretty nice used like a mini NS-heal when needed. Purifying power is another talent I think you're underrating. There are a few fights out there that have paladins cleansing the majority of their mana away. With that in mind I'd revise your specs like so:
I'm very disappointed with the warrior changes. It's making me wish the expansion would never come now. Big nerf to Flurry, bad Fury talents (and any DPS warrior spots - if they will still exist will surely go to someone full arms for the 5% boost to all melee damage which Fury has nothing even COMPARABLE to), and the crowning gem, TM in prot.. My only dilemna now is whether to level up an Undead Mage or an Orc Shaman.
/emo
The only saving grace would be if Battle Shout and Commanding Shout stacked, which is very unlikely.
Fury/prot anyone? Heard that warrior isnt pure dps class? Main concept of being a warrior turns from omgleetwtzrogueplate stuff to being able to tank and as a secondary to do dps. I'd still take 1 pure dps, 1-2 semiprots and 1 full prot, thou its a bit hard to say without knowing anything about raid encounters.
And this would be fine if it was two thirds of our talents focused on tanking and one third on DPS, but it's not like that, it's the opposite. Infact the prot changes look most boring of all, no doubt done so warriors aren't pigeon holed into full prot but still, the changes overall are very underwhelming. This is of course (as previously mentioned) apart from the 5% melee damage deep wounds/rend, which will be pretty much mandatory for endgame.
The move of TM is like going back to the mage review and instead of Blizzard giving IAE for free, they move it down to 20 points required in arcane. Never have I seen so many people in this game universally agree on a change like the removal or condensing of the Tactical Mastery talent, and Blizzard have totally ignored it all and gave us a kick in the balls in return. Of course this is done to stop the 31/30 build - and it says a lot about how poor the new talents are if they are so worried about people speccing like that.
I'm very disappointed with the warrior changes. It's making me wish the expansion would never come now. Big nerf to Flurry, bad Fury talents (and any DPS warrior spots - if they will still exist will surely go to someone full arms for the 5% boost to all melee damage which Fury has nothing even COMPARABLE to), and the crowning gem, TM in prot.. My only dilemna now is whether to level up an Undead Mage or an Orc Shaman.
/emo
The only saving grace would be if Battle Shout and Commanding Shout stacked, which is very unlikely.
Could someone please quote this nerf to flurry from a source?I cant seem to find the root to where this information is comming from and as far as i can tell isnt true.
Yeah, this is fine right now. But what happens when the expansion hits, you're bringing three paladins to a 25-man raid, and the only Kings guy takes a night off? It's a disaster.
Well horde seem to manage just fine, but you are correct. We had a problem with this the first week we hit naxx as we were short on naxx attuned paladns with kings. The issue is mainly hidden for us due to the large numbers of semi retired paladin alts. I think we have something like 6 or 7, most specced for kings.
Caluntus between a Libram of Grace and a mob to beat on with Jow , cleansing cost is a non issue. Since I presume their are no new ranks of cleanse and at 70 we will have a larger mana pool and regen so even less of a issue. I frequently regen to 100% during chromagus as soon as their a break in the cleansing.
They certainly made the arcane tree viable after ripping out it's spine in 1.11. Mind Mastery is far superior to it's Tier 8 counterparts in Fire and Frost. Not to happy about the changes to Arcane Potency, maybe they should switch it with Prismatic Cloak and bring back the 33/66/100 Crit bonus.
Arcane Impact is certainly much better with the addition of Arcane Blast, Arcane Mind became a must have for someone that deep in Arcane. I don't see Slow being too useful for Arc/Frost builds but for Arc/Fire Mages who will no longer have Ice Armor it's great for a long range instant snare.
New Fire talents look like they will increase the gap between Fire and Frost by greater margin. Empowered Fireball, Playing With Fire in addition to current mainstays in Imp Scorch and Firepower. Empowered Frostbolt can't match that and once a boss get's to 19% Molten Fury comes into play since most raiding Frost builds will not be deep into Fire if any.
As a fire mage at heart I'm very happy this was moved into the Fire tree instead of it staying in frost like it was in the initial leak. 100-20% Fireball gains 38% increase in damage (and 10% of spell dmg) compared to Frostbolt's 21-24% (and 5% of spell damage), though Frostbolt does gain 5% hit and 4% crit it's not enough to make up the gap.
38% figure is the following
15% from Imp Scorch
10% from Firepower
10% from Curse of Elements (Wonder if the new rank will be changed to 12 or 15% instead of just -88 to resists)
3% from Playing With Fire
Molten Fury pumps that upto 68% for 19-0%, now if they can just fix the rolling ignite issue. I know Molten Fury is for all spells but from what I've seen most high end raiding mages have Clearcast and if you're that far in Fire you probably have all the other additional modifers to increase Fire damage. Also Blizzard are seem to be going to well a lot for Bosses gaining Enrage on either a timer or health %. With Fireball being the highest dps nuke why would you use anything else while Molten Fury is in effect.
Anyway for current raiding Fire Mages any tips for changes to this build?
They certainly made the arcane tree viable after ripping out it's spine in 1.11. Mind Mastery is far superior to it's Tier 8 counterparts in Fire and Frost. Not to happy about the changes to Arcane Potency, maybe they should switch it with Prismatic Cloak and bring back the 33/66/100 Crit bonus.
Arcane Impact is certainly much better with the addition of Arcane Blast, Arcane Mind became a must have for someone that deep in Arcane with the added crit rate as well as Mind Mastery. I don't see Slow being too useful for Arc/Frost builds but for Arc/Fire Mages who will no longer have Ice Armor it's great.
New Fire talents look like they will increase the gap between Fire and Frost by greater margin. Empowered Fireball, Playing With Fire in addition to current mainstays in Imp Scorch and Firepower. Empowered Frostbolt can't match that and once a boss get's to 19% Molten Fury comes into play.
As a fire mage at heart I'm very happy this was moved into the Fire tree instead of it staying in frost like it was in the initial leak. 100-20% Fireball gains 38% increase in damage (and 10% of spell dmg) compared to Frostbolt's 21-24% (and 5% of spell damage), though Frostbolt does gain 5% hit and 4% crit it's not enough to make up the gap.
38% figure is the following
15% from Imp Scorch
10% from Firepower
10% from Curse of Elements (Wonder if the new rank will be changed to 12 or 15% instead of just -88 to resists)
3% from Playing With Fire
Molten Fury pumps that upto 68% for 19-0%, now if they can just fix the rolling ignite issue. I know Molten Fury is for all spells but from what I've seen most high end raiding mages have Clearcast and if you're that far in Fire you probably have all the other additional modifers to increase Fire damage. Also Blizzard are seem to be going to well a lot for Bosses gaining Enrage on either a timer or health %. With Fireball being the highest dps nuke why would you use anything else while Molten Fury is in effect.
Anyway for current raiding Fire Mages any tips for changes to this build?
Went with Burnout due to the change to Shield Bash, doubt it works on Bosses but for trash/adds it's a nice increase.
I was fire up until a few weeks ago. I will say this though, you speak of fireball as becoming very very powerful with the added damage multipliers it's getting. True, but you still will face the terrible mana problem that comes along with fire. Without arcane med it's just going to be that much harder to keep a decent amount of mana as you spam your spells.
I don't understand the move of the spell execute from Frost to Fire. Fire can outperform Frost in every way with those changes, and Frost becomes only useful for snares and survivability, neither of which are truly needed in a raid setting if you play smartly (and because there are few important raid mobs that you actually need to snare). Cold Hearted would have given Frost mages just the dps boost they needed to make it a viable dps alternative to Fire's rolling ignites. The change has really solidified my decision to spec 41 Arcane now, although the Arcane tree is far from ideal too (Empowered AM, Arcane Potency). Thankfully there should be plenty of changes between now and retail, because honestly some of these changes make no sense.
Infact the prot changes look most boring of all, no doubt done so warriors aren't pigeon holed into full prot but still, the changes overall are very underwhelming.
Vitality, devastate, and focused rage all seem very good.
Fire talents look like they will increase the gap between Fire and Frost by greater margin. Empowered Fireball, Playing With Fire in addition to current mainstays in Imp Scorch and Firepower. Empowered Frostbolt can't match that and once a boss get's to 19% Molten Fury comes into play since most raiding Frost builds will not be deep into Fire if any.
As a fire mage at heart I'm very happy this was moved into the Fire tree instead of it staying in frost like it was in the initial leak. 100-20% Fireball gains 38% increase in damage (and 10% of spell dmg) compared to Frostbolt's 21-24% (and 5% of spell damage), though Frostbolt does gain 5% hit and 4% crit it's not enough to make up the gap.
Where are you seeing +4% crit for frost? Did I miss a talent change?
As Manabar said, I'm quite disappointed in the execute talent move. Having that talent in frost would have left fire as king of DPS, as it should be, but would have given frost the boost it needs on DPS race/enrage fights to not be a liability. Considering the fact that the things frost trades damage for are not really an advantage in a raiding environment, I fear these changes will pigeonhole frost into PvP.
At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.
...neither of which are truly needed in a raid setting if you play smartly (and because there are few important raid mobs that you actually need to snare)...
In the raid environment as it stands, sure. The same may not be true in 10-25 man, level 61-70 raids.
Good point. Hopefully Blizzard will present some interesting new encounters that don't necessarily involve kiting 10 mobs around a circle.
However, the point I was really trying to make is that to me, Frost seems to be falling behind the other two trees in terms of damage and utility. Frost has been consistent in keeping up reasonably with Fire damage while sacrificing burst dps and the advantage of rolling ignites. It's been steady and mana efficient dps with some added spells thrown in for survivability. However, in the expansion Fire is going to outperform it entirely from a damage perspective with the current talent setup, while Arcane is going to have a lot more fun goodies to play with. Unless raid bosses are going to be able to be rooted in the expansion to take advantage of Ice Lance's damage multiplier, the primary advantages to going Frost in a raid setting will be mana efficiency (which isn't really an issue if someone plays Fire smartly) and survivability (which also isn't an issue if the player is smart about their threat and positioning), and I can't justify speccing into a tree on the hope that future raid bosses will require a snaring effect.
I'm very disappointed with the warrior changes. It's making me wish the expansion would never come now. Big nerf to Flurry, bad Fury talents (and any DPS warrior spots - if they will still exist will surely go to someone full arms for the 5% boost to all melee damage which Fury has nothing even COMPARABLE to), and the crowning gem, TM in prot.. My only dilemna now is whether to level up an Undead Mage or an Orc Shaman.
/emo
The only saving grace would be if Battle Shout and Commanding Shout stacked, which is very unlikely.
Could someone please quote this nerf to flurry from a source?I cant seem to find the root to where this information is comming from and as far as i can tell isnt true.
It may just be a tooltip thing (we all know how Blizzard just LOVE to play with the Flurry tooltip), so I may be being premature. The talk is the skill description is saying that Flurry procs from white swings only.
I don't understand the move of the spell execute from Frost to Fire. Fire can outperform Frost in every way with those changes, and Frost becomes only useful for snares and survivability, neither of which are truly needed in a raid setting if you play smartly (and because there are few important raid mobs that you actually need to snare). Cold Hearted would have given Frost mages just the dps boost they needed to make it a viable dps alternative to Fire's rolling ignites. The change has really solidified my decision to spec 41 Arcane now, although the Arcane tree is far from ideal too (Empowered AM, Arcane Potency). Thankfully there should be plenty of changes between now and retail, because honestly some of these changes make no sense.
There's still the theory floating around that a mob can be debuffed while still being immune to the debuff. With talents working off a mob being dazed, poisoned, or frozen, and 40 debuff slots, it's something that could easily bring Frost back into power.
However, if things stay the same, I see Frost as being the support for 40 points in Arcane. It will be the best PvP build for a mage (Arcane Power plus Ice Block), while still remaining viable in PvE. But Fire will still be the clear PvE king.
Perhaps they felt a combination of Imp CS, POM, Shatter, Ice Lance & Spell Execute was unbalancing. I doubt this will be the last time Cold Hearted/Molten Fury is changed.
Casting Ice Lance against a frozen target under 19% is a 60-80% to crit for 2100 without even factoring any +dmg gear. 150 Mana to get a near certain kill if it crits compared to losing all your rage as a warrior. (Not to mention warrior's crit rate doesn't approach 60-80%)
Imp CS takes away a lot of counters for classes stuck in a frost nova, like Blink, Counterspell, Cleanse, Dispel etc. Can't use Engineering in the arena so maybe they made the change to balance PvP for their since they're offerring rewards equal to top of the line PvE instances.
Unless the Water Elemental is somehow amazing for raiding, deep frost does need a boost for PvE. An Elementalist build with Molten Fury will end up doing more damage spamming Frostbolts than Frost/Arcane in any fight that's not mana intensive.
I'm feeling bad for the Frost mages out there. The high end stuff is simply not going to be able to keep up with the other two trees. Since almost every frost mage I know specs VERY deeply into the tree I think they're going to be in for a shock if they do so post-expansion.
Why Dragon's Breath? I'm not digging it. I can see it being insane in AoE grinding (Blastwave, Combustion, Dragon's Breath, +3% damage on top of it) but for raiding? I might play with it but I'd be amazed if I stuck with it; I feel like that point would be better spent just about anywhere else from a raiding perspective.
Random thought for the day: With a 15% bonus to Intellect now from Arcane Mind coupled with the reasonable assumption one could make about more Intellect gear (why else would MM be awesomesauce?) could Arcane Fortitude actually be worth a damn?
Mages have a set time that they want you to ask for food, and that time is pull #4 of the night. You may notice them putting a little snack table down before the raid, that's them cooking the food for you to demand on pull 4. --Nork
08/29/06, 1:53 AM
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