The old invisibility did break on spell cast and was overpowered, and this was before trinkets. Mages are deadlier now than they've ever been, giving back old invisbility would be a very bad thing.

The catching people with their pants down thing in PvP was the big one, primarily because with the old-school pyro they could do it from 30 yards and you'd never know they were there until you were dead, and then they'd just invis right back up and corpse camp you. At least with a rogue you've got SOME chance of living, however small.

Granted the new pyro wouldn't really be capable of this, but stealth is very much the major advantage of a rogue in PvP and PvE. Making another class not only superior at it (since invis had no detection check) but also giving it the capability to just randomly drop people no matter what was the problem. It trampled all over the rogue's territory: The capability to theoretically always have the element of surprise, which is exactly what they need to survive. Druids have stealth as well but feral druids in cat aren't really as dangerous as a rogue, nor do they have as many tricks while stealthed. Mages with Invis could just waltz through any instance in pairs or w/e and then drop a boss, and do it all over again. Yes it was only SM at the time, but it was still retarded and made Rogues feel pointless. If that's not stepping all over their toes I do not know what is.

So you can see me from over 41 yards away when I am hiding behind a bush in AB? Impressive.

The game has changed quite a bit since beta. Yes in duels the old invis would be overpowered. But who exactly cares about duels? In BGs I can already hide well enough to get the first nuke off without you noticing. The same is even more true when ganking outdoors, or are you always scanning the area for mages 41 yards away when grinding?

The only valid case I can see would be 2v2 arena fights, but that could easily be solved by not allowing spell casts before the fight begins.

I don't want the old invis back. It is not needed, plain and simple. But given that the number of new spell slots is very limited I would rather not have a toy spell. So either make it combat usable or just don't bring it back at all.

I can't speak for battlegrounds since they didn't exist in beta, but it was ridiculous in world pvp.

Currently you could likely gank me once since you're right, I'm not constantly scanning the area. Without invisibility however I can come back after I die and get revenge. I can track you, I can sneak up on you with stealth and I can kill you.

With invisibility there was no such thing. Short of a warlock buff or a very specific potion, there's no way to detect an invisible mage. You could never get the upper hand or the element of surprise against a mage.

The long cooldown and short duration of the new invisibility effectively prevents corpse camping regardless of the ability to see opponents.

Playing an alliance character, I can't wait to get a horde mage in our vent with one of our warlocks. Get the mage to go invis, cast detect invisibility on them, watch them crap their pants.

Same faction griefing ftw.

Well, given that a single warlock can buff a whole raid with detect invisibility with some macro-action, I really think that it's easier to detect invis than stealth.

The only thing I can think of is using it to escape rogues. Pop invis, then hit iceblock, by the time ice block wears off you'll be invis. Just smash blink to avoid getting grenaded back into view. <3

Other then that, well...maybe running into Drek Thar's room ala AV, so it isn't ~too bad~ for BG ambush type events. It only breaks on hostile events so you can still use safe fall, ports and whatnot...lawl?

What would be nice is if it was something like, well, say...an 8 second channeled spell. Every second it increases your 'fade' level. Depending on how stacked your fade level buff was, the potency of the spell increased. At level 0 (effectively insta-casted) it's only a 10 second invis, minor threat debuff. At level 8 it's a 2 minute invis and agro wipe.

Or something. As much as I dread the mage gank squads of old, it's alot easier to survive a AP/PoM/pyro these days then it was back then. Unless you're a shitty twink that is. 8(

For all we know, as you fade over 8 seconds it acts like a Priest's Fade (or an Ice Block), causing the mob to leave you alone, and then at the end of those 8 seconds you drop into invis mode for 20 seconds and drop out of combat completely. You really can't say that it sucks when you don't know how it works yet. I suspect the 8 seconds is so you can't auto-pop it in PvP for an instant getaway like a Rogue's Vanish, and I doubt while the 8 seconds of prep are going on that being hit will break it. Strikes me as more of a preparatory countdown until the real thing kicks in and then you're safe unless they can see through it with detect invis or they're fast enough to toss a grenade or aoe spell before you Blink away. It still is most likely an escape spell, but one that takes some ingenuity to use properly. Imagine, mages having to think about using their spells cleverly!

In conclusion, I reiterate that we don't yet know how it works in a PvE setting so saying that it's worthless based on unknown mechanics is silly.

And we all know how often buffs get handed out to the entire raid during Battlegrounds.

Invis was tossed in beta for a good reason. It was bullshit.

I can't imagine it'll be any kind of aggro wipe in PvE, given that mage aggro is pretty low already and with horde getting paladins its not like there's even faction imbalance to worry about at this point. I do expect there will be "invisble" things you have to do in fights eventualyl just because its there and Blizzard likes cheap gimmicks, but obviously it will be handled better by warlocks with see invis than anything else.

As for PvP, I don't see how people can't find this powerful. No, you can't see everyone when you run in. YES, you can run in and still sneak behind people. Assaulting the BS, you hide behind a tree and cast invis while you're team is moving in. You run in, unseen by anyone, and then bust out a frostnova/cone of cold/blast wave/ whatever. Or, you could do a blizzard or something similar from a side that no one is expecting it. It's certainly not stealth, but in 30 seconds you can get pretty far and then surprise is a -very- powerful effect. About all that makes rogues really dangerous is that you can't really expect one to be coming, when you get the jump as any player on a random rogue, you should win 9 times of 10. However when he jumps you it goes far into his favor. Saying that, as a low armor/health class, appearing from where no one expects you with a powerful spell already on the way isn't a useful addition seems crazy to me.

Personally just sad to see that its a learnable spell instead of a talent, would be a nice boost to arcane, and I'm in no rush to see more powerful frost mages anytime soon.

I am a little bit disappointed that the new Invisibility will only last for 20 seconds. I was hoping for more like a mintue (60secs.) I do agree though, the closed beta Invisibility was very overpowered.

I thought they were actually learned at the same level, with the highest being at level 50.

Regardless it was moot since there were a total of 5 warlocks in beta because the class was horribly unfinished for a long time, and only 2 of those warlocks got to level 50 since they were constantly ganked by level 50 mages.

(Yes I'm exaggerating, but it was pretty severe and warlocks were extremely rare, more so than today by a longshot)

Yes, we do. And 'how often' is 100% of the time if you're playing properly, ie with an organized group. If you're not playing with an organized group, who cares? You don't care about winning in that case anyway.

And nobody that matters is going to play arena pvp outside of a solid organized group, who WILL make sure that everyone is buffed with this precisely to avoid a mage using invisibility for anything at all.

The spell is completely useless in pvp, probably equally useless in raids. The only thing I can see using it for is to skip content when soloing 5-man instances. I guess it's nice for that. But it's not actually a useful ability that adds anything to the class.

Relying on your opponent to be totally incompetent for an ability to be useful is a very poor basis of usefulness.

In the effort not to make invisibility overpowered (not wanting to awaken the "omg Invis in beta was the pwnage!! people), Blizz overdid it imo.

Invisibilty seems to have way too many checks and balances right now.

If you look at those individual they all seems fair.

20 sec (or 12?) invisibility.
5 min cd.
8 sec fade before it works
No offensive abilities (that one is obviosuly requires to make it balanced).
Cant see others.

It all makes sense, but combined it makes the ability too weak.

At least the 8 sec fade should be removed imo, so it is useful for escaping.

Cant really see the problem in being able to see other people while invis either, maybe not just target them if you are afraid of PoM ganking.
I think its an interesting aspect about the spell though, so I wouldnt mind at all if it stays that way. (imagine having a fight between 2 mages noone else could see, it had been amazing, or a mage and a warlock! That would require we could at least use hostile spells against other invis targets of course)

Hope blizz decides to remove at least some of the balancing done to the spell, right now its hard to see it being very usefull.
Not sayings its 100% useless, its just a bit sad to see one of the mage defining skills (imo) nerfed so much that its hard to think of situations it could be useful.


Blizz should do _one_ of the following imo:
- Remove the fade time

-Make it possible to see others (but not target them!), and also make it possible to attack others who are invisible or can see invisible targets, without the stealth breaking.
Would also add to the fun factor!

Sorry, sir. Not all of us can afford the trip to another planet just to play World of Warcraft.

Also, you're not getting the beta version of invis. Ever.

I didn't suggest that we should get the beta version of invis, and of course I agree that it would be overpowered. I do, however, think it's hilarious that you think that the basic level of competence required to buff your group members in pvp is only obtainable on another planet. I'm very happy I'm not on your terrible sounding planet.

You must have a horribly low opinion of the people you'd choose to be in a serious pvp group with you.

I just don't really see the point in giving this to us at all if they're gonna make it essentially useless. The only reason we're getting invis is 'because they said they would give us invis'. It's obviously not a serious part of the design goal for Mages.

And if that's the case, they should just not give it to us at all. Either do it right, or don't do it.

It still amazes me how many of you can cast judgement on it based on a spell description and what you expected it to be without actually seeing how it works in the game.

Beta invis was only overpowered because pyro was unbalanced (the DoT portion was part of the upfront damage), nobody had alot of hp and combustion guaranteeing the crit from invis made for a huge upfront hit that you couldn't stop.

These days, invis would break the instant you started casting, nobody has 2000-3000hp anymore which is all people had at 55 in beta when mages had invis, pyro barely hits harder than a fireball and combustion doesn't guarantee a crit.

Whats the difference between me opening up with a spell from invis and sheeping you, then casting pyro? Nothing. Do you always insta-lose when mages sheep you and cast pyro? Why do you think you'd auto-lose if they pyro'd you from invisibility today? The game has changed folks. These aren't beta mages we're playing with.

I wonder if it's only mage invis that allows you to see other invis things. If invisible PvE mobs can't see you while invisible, then well, you'd make a pretty damn fine scout.

Thats the idea of speculating and discussing on a forum.
If we all knew everything 100% there would never be a reason to discuss.

Ofc, sometimes the discussion can be so far from reality that it makes no sense (like when Gurg pointed out the stuoidty in debating class balance at lvl 70 before knwoing the new spells/talents).
But a description of invibility should give more than enough foundation for a discussion before we have tried it in game.

And of course, Blizz can change invis 100 times before BC is released.

Yes, but there is really not much more you can do than baselessly speculating about what the wording of the spell could actually mean in a PvE/PvP setting. This sort of mechanic hasn't been seen in the game yet, so you can't really make a complete decision until you see how it actually works in terms of escape utility and aggro reduction/wiping. Perhaps I have a different perspective because I joined closed beta too late to abuse old mage invisibility, but I just see all these comments about how it's going to be completely useless and Blizzard shouldn't have even bothered to give it to mages like it is as being entirely unwarranted. I really feel like I'm reading the WoW forums right now.