People die, and the warlock isn't going to be everywhere at once to buff people when they ress. As for the arena, the only way to get detect invis is with a warlock in the group. You can't tell me every single arena group from 2v2 to 5v5 is going to have a warlock in every match.
You must have a horribly low opinion of the people you'd choose to be in a serious pvp group with you.
What in the holy crap are you rambling on about?
To put a denouement on this little sidetrack:
In WSG or AB, you might get buffed when you start out and occasionally when you've gathered in the same area for more than a few seconds. In AV, you're practically never getting buffed. I'm not pulling this out of my ass. I'm not speaking as someone who does nothing but group with pubs. When I'm in an EJ group, we win practically every single time. And yup, I'll be damned, we do it without chasing each other around and wasting time by buffing one another.
But this isn't about buffing in BGs, is it? No. It's about you bitching about a "useless" talent that's still in the alpha stage and beyond your ability to even test for another 3+ months. :kau101:
Originally Posted by Lyta
I've been trying to concentrate on studying for my Proof Methods test tomorrow, and all I can think of is your hotness, radiating out from the pixels on my monitor, seared straight into my neurons.
But this isn't about buffing in BGs, is it? No. It's about you bitching about a "useless" talent that's still in the alpha stage and beyond your ability to even test for another 3+ months. :kau101:
Thank you Kaubel maybe they'll actually listen to you.
Falon24 - my problem is, rogues and mages were setup to be pretty equivalent in a lot of things. Rogues had stealth, mages had invis. Rogues could lockpick, mages could magically open locks and blink through doors. Rogues had ambush, mages had combust/pyro from invis. Mages could make water, rogues could poison other people's weapon's in the trade window. It had a weird sort of balance, and mana reliance wasn't a big deal because you could drink in combat, and spirit regen worked regardless of casting.
Mages then got invis removed, drinking/eating in combat removed (due to fight resetting with poly/eat/drink), khadagar's unlocking removed, mana regen nerfed then re-added with mage armor..
It's like Blizz can't figure out that running around invisible attacking stuff is fun. Why do you there are so many rogues around? Stealth is for all intents and purposes invisibility. Stealth gives you SO much power in world pvp.
Nobody seems to disagree that invis was overpowered in beta - and they always bring up invis/pyro.
Why is invis/pyro any different from sheep/pyro? It's not!
Thank you Kaubel maybe they'll actually listen to you.
Looking at the number of people who got temp bans today, I highly doubt it.
Originally Posted by Lyta
I've been trying to concentrate on studying for my Proof Methods test tomorrow, and all I can think of is your hotness, radiating out from the pixels on my monitor, seared straight into my neurons.
Whats the difference between me opening up with a spell from invis and sheeping you, then casting pyro? Nothing. Do you always insta-lose when mages sheep you and cast pyro? Why do you think you'd auto-lose if they pyro'd you from invisibility today? The game has changed folks. These aren't beta mages we're playing with.
The difference is the target has time to get ready to react to what you're doing. They can also trinket out of poly, or use the time to call out for support. In group PVP you can't just sheep someone, hit your macro and pwn them, their buddies are going to have something to say about that. With invis you would be able to manuver into place and hit your macro, by the time anyone has noticed you there's going to be roughly 4-7k fire damage streaking at your target. Not. Balanced.
EDIT: In reply to your last post, yes mages and rogues have diverged a lot. For instance, rogues lost a LOT of their alpha strike capability. I laugh at rogues that ambush->backstab because it's just silly. Mages though... they hurt. :(
The game has been out for almost two years at this point. Class definitions have changed. You need to move past what they were in beta. I don't really care what they used to be and how the two classes were tenuously balanced in a beta where Blizzard didn't really have a good idea where they were going with the classes. Looking to the future, I see this as a very interesting sounding spell that I highly doubt will be utterly useless as everyone is proclaiming.
Stealth is hardly Invis. Stealth has checks built in. Invis can only be detected if the other player has a short duration detection spell cast on him by a Warlock. Arguing that Blizzard should implement the spell as it was in beta because it's fun is a pretty silly remark to make now that we're almost two years after the fact and approaching an expansion with new content and new mechanics.
if it is 8 sec cast, 20 sec duration, and 5 min cooldown then it is for all practical purposes useless. Sure there will be some very specialized situations like walking to c'thun etc where it will be nice, but otherwise not useful spell in either pvp or PvE. Meh more gimmiks. The most disappointing thing is that the gameplay is not gonna change for a mage.
I look forward to all the mages who are bitching about it being useless being the same guys that bust out a 4k crit on me at level 70 when I'm dancing with my friends in the middle of nowhere, not expecting someone to sneak up.
Its not a perfect super invis where you can do everything and be god. It IS however, a useful PvP tool that gives you a lot of advantage via surprise for a class that is easily neutralized when taken care of first, but insanely powerful if left alone.
And as some people have said on this topic, a) you're assuming that the 8 second fade won't actually serve as a deaggro much like the Priest Fade ability (or, perhaps, something similar to Evasion that makes you harder to hit), and b) the spell will undoubtedly be changed a dozen times over between now and when the expansion actually comes out. To call it useless at this stage in the game is like saying that Ragnaros is harder than Illidan will be in the expansion. The details aren't finalized and you know nothing about it.
Honestly it's like the words mage invisibility make people abandon all sense of reason.
Falcon24 - yea, it could serve as a deaggro, but it doesn't mention so in the tooltip. Fade says it reduces aggro. This doesn't. We could speculate that it also gives slow fall, 150% mana regen in combat, and a 500 spell power buff for 5 minutes after casting it - but it doesn't say any of these things.
*IF* if really does last 20 seconds, takes 8 seconds to take effect, giving 12 seconds of invis where we cannot even see people who can't see us, I fail to see how a level 30 invis potion isn't better than this. Unless there's alot of mechanics like what you're saying that aren't stated, it's awful.
Then since neither of us really know what the true intended mechanic is, we aren't really at liberty to discuss it and should then stop trying to.
I will disagree on one thing though -- I don't think you are correct in assuming that the 8 second fade time is part of the 20 second duration. The tooltip suggests to me that it takes 8 seconds to fully fade from view, then you retain that complete invisibility for 20 seconds unless you are hit with a hostile attack or cast a hostile spell. If it is as you suggest then there must be some benefit to the 8 second warmup time to justify taking it out of the full duration, and again it's a matter of this not being the final implementation. However it currently works (which we do not know), it will undoubtedly be changed before it sees retail.
Arright I'll "try" to make you all feel a bit less trenarded for having even read the thread, then.
1) Mage invisibility in Beta = Broken. We all know it, we all agree on it. Why was it broken? a) Everyone's HP was, as has been pointed out 2-3k, pyro was, what? 1200 base, it was 200% on a crit then, so 2400 hp. Thats a dang good chance to one-shot someone, from range, invisible. Not fun. b) Invisibility (and stealth) didn't break until you were done winding up with the spell and it cast. Basically, no chance to stop someone from doing it. c) Mages had talents, weeks before other classes, so abilities were modified, bettered by those talents. This only added insult to injury. If I'm missing something, let me know. This led to the necessary "cry nerf" that ended inviso until now. I presume there isn't alot of anger about invisibility being abused in pve? I haven't heard much, anyway in this thread.
Summation: It sucked. If you weren't a mage, anyway.
2) Mage invisibility in Alpha Expansion appears to be highly limited. Five minute cooldown, 20 second duration, 8 second (channel?) cast or "fade" whatever that means. Any two of those limitations would be sufficient, given recent and long-passed changes to the game to make invisibility difficult to use for the issues that have been raised in this thread. 5 min cooldown? Ok, now its alot like PoM, one shot of fun in 5 min. 20 second duration, you can't camp out waiting for someone to walk by. Odds are they know you're there, since you probably just cast inviso in front of their faces, they just don't know exactly where. 8 second cast (with interruption apparently cancelling the fade in effect?). Ok, now, if you start to do it anywhere in the visible range of a player, they can interrupt you and your (now 5 min cooldown) is burned.
I honestly believe that any two of those would be sufficient to make it a situational, difficult to use or single-use-in-a-long-time (three minute wonder PoM mages) spell. All three of them, sufficient to make it a 5 min wonder, short duration, difficult to use anywhere near combat spell. Ok, fine, I'll take that, still. It could have some fun uses.
But, that wasn't enough. Now, I can't see any player, unless they can see me (read: Why did I cast this "invisibility"spell again, especially on that 5 min timer? They can still see me...)? Thats the one that just pushes me over the top. Why? Its already on a 5 min cooldown, I'm not sitting around spamming it. It took me 8 seconds of not being touched to get it off and actually become invisible, and I only have 20 seconds to make a use of it. Now, I can't even strategize about where I'd like to show up at the end of those (in my opinion, measly) 20 seconds, much less cast while invisible as before.
Thats where I'm at.
I realize this is somewhat rampant speculation. But assuming (not a stretch) mechanics for casting are largely what we expect from the past, we know what cooldown, duration, and "can only see other invisible people and those who can see invisible" means. Its not a stretch to say those three things are dead on and rather stringent limitations. The only thing we don't understand explicitly is "fades in over 8 seconds." Here's my speculation: the mage gets lighter and lighter fading into nothing, during which time he may be targetted. That seems to be a highly likely scenario and designed to give people a counter to it. They can attack you, thereby cancelling the effect. It makes complete sense to me that this is what it would be.
I realize its subject to HUGE change. Keep in mind, we're about 2 months(I'd guess) away from release of this thing, and apparently the hunter, priest and druid trees aren't in good enough condition to show us? I somehow doubt significant changes to released skills and talents will occur. They would if people cried nerf on this inviso, but the other way? I seriously doubt it. They made a very concious decision, it seems to me. To make "inviso" so the mage community couldn't complain that we don't have it anymore... but make it so incredibly situational that its more likely to be seen in Ironforge than in Warsong Gulch or PvE.
That said...
The big question in my mind is in combat or not? That may make all the difference (at least for PvE). If it really does have a component of "fade-like" qualities for agro reduction. Do I need that anymore? Not terribly. Would it be nice? Sure. If it really lets you drop combat for 20 seconds, during a PvE encounter or on a wipe, then it'd be hugely useful in PvE if timed right (20 sec is short for wipe avoidance). The times when you'd want to do that in PvP will be impossible to get off (8 second fade out), but not in PvE if you use it correctly or quickly enough.
Do I want to Pyro one-shot people? No. Do I want to be able to use it in PvP and PvE to try to sneak by trash mob X or flag guardian Y? Yes. Can I really do either when I can't "see" while using it and its limited in so many other ways? Maybe, but it'd be dang tough the vast majority of the time.
We will just have to wait and see. But honestly, in case you couldn't abundantly tell, I'm not waiting with bated breath on this one.
My biggest question is also with the 8 second fade.
It can't be a channel, since the spell does say "Instant Cast" but at the same time there's only a 20 second duration.
Is that 20 seconds of pure invisibility, or is that 8 seconds of "fading out" and 12 seconds of pure invisibility. I'm hoping for the 1st but expecting the 2nd. With the picture they provide, however; it does make me lean towards 8 seconds of fade followed by 20 seconds of invisibility, simply because the buff clearly states "Invisible" instead of "fading" and has 14 seconds left. At the same time, the combat log mentions nothing about fading, so maybe the 8 seconds really is encased within those 20...
One of those things though, I don't think we'll find out without testing it for ourselves.
Ok, here's how it will work, based on the current description.
You cast, it's instant.
You begin an 8 second fade. Nothing special about the word 'fade' here. It just means you start to become invisible. During this time you can move, run, blink, do whatever you want, I imagine. Anything non-hostile.
After 8 seconds you're invisible. I imagine other mobs fade from your view over the 8 seconds too.
Uses?
How about getting in position in the enemy FR in WSG to nuke their carrier who is standing on the spot? Your rogue friend has told you where their FC is, he's ready to open up on them, you're in position to Pyro->PoM->Pyro with your trinket... You invis in the tunnel and head on in...
It's a PvP 'toy', yes. But a very fun one that will have many good uses. I can think of loads in AB/WSG for a start.
The 5 min CD is quite long - something rogues have had to suffer under for a very long time. But then again I've seen warriors burn their 30 min CDs taking a FC down, so really, it's still no biggie.
I think Blizzard decided to deliberately introduce an underpowered invisibility which they could incrementally buff until it gets to a point where they like it. It's a way of hedging one's bets - they've decided that introducing an overpowered ability is more disruptive than a useless ability, because the overpowered ability can trivialize content and creates a flavor of the month effect, forcing swift nerf batting, which is almost impossible not to overdo (see: old beta invis). An underpowered/useless ability, on the other hand, just never gets used. They can, if neccessary, be set on the back burner until such time as the Dev team gets around to tweaking it (warlock demonology) or just allowed to rot forever and be forgotten (Infernal and Doomguard).
Since mage invis is so hyped amongst the community, it's probably going to get a steady trickle of minor buffs until it's usefull, but not game breaking.
Is there some sort of wording that would prevent either bandaging or eating/drinking (since after 8 seconds of not being touched you're presumably out of combat). This would most likely only have a use in PvP, but nevertheless this kind of ability seems useful.
Edit: Oh, and there's the always Invis>Iceblock>Hearthstone. Mage bubble hearth ftw?
Hmm didn't notice the cooldown was 5mins, I was expecting a 1 or 2minute cooldown. I'd say this part of the spell is probably to be buffed.
From what I understand, it's a 8secs fading animation(no link whatsoever with the Fade spell) which somewhat acts like a channeling spell, only that you can still run around and cast stuff while it's happening. Once complete, you're totally invisible for 20secs. I think it's a good PvP tool and probably worthless for pve. It's not like it would be a first, there's many of the new abilities that seems pretty worthless in PvE, and I like the idea of having skills useful in PvP but not in PvE, changes a bit from the whole taunt/threat mechanics.
If they reduce the cooldown a bit, it would be a very powerful recon/sneak attack tool, you could get past defenses as long as your archnemesis isn't around buffing people and getting ready to soul link felhunter your ass back to the nearest graveyard ^^ Sure you might see warlocks buffing everyone with detect invis. MIGHT. Back in beta, I remember I got the buff in Tarren mills like once a week. It was back when the game was full of invis pyroblasting mages, hell I was one of them too. People don't like wasting mana on people they don't know. It's because of the whole sitting on your ass while regening stuff. That and warlocks don't get free drinks so they probably won't ever waste mana buffing other people.
As for arena, as said before, it's the whole Get a warlock to see mages argument. You can go without, but if you're against a stacked group with like 2 or even 3mages, it's gonna be tough when they pop /assisting their paladin and one shot someone.
I don't know, I can understand why some mages are unhappy with those changes, especially the cooldown which should be reduced imo, but saying that because in beta you could get it is a bit too much. Should I remind those people of warriors during that same phase? No cooldown on MS? Inner Rage? It was an insta kill on anyone every minute. Don't wish too hard for the beta to come back, I also remember when my lock drain life spell was uninterruptable and was doing about 250%more dmg than it is currently.
I imagine they are being very careful about how they phase this spell in. It's been bounced around for a long damn time now and the devs are indeed aware of the issues that might arise. So, they start weak and see what that gets em.
Me, I couldn't care less if invis ever is done "right" again. I remember it from beta and sure, it was amusing (although pyroblast was what made it work really) but frankly, if it is ever that strong again then it becomes a balance point and I'd rather not have that as my class strength. We'll see what the end and final result is but I'm betting on a novelty/gimmick encounter annoyance before anything else. I'm still wondering where the hell I am going to find hotkeys for DM/Spell-Steal given my current setup =p
Personally I wish that it was never put back. The rogues crying about their "class identity" is just too much. Come back when mages get special spells that can only be cast while invisible.
If they release the expansion with invisibility in its current form, then yes it will seem underpowered compared to beta. But I can completely understand why they want to take small steps with re-introducing it.
There has always been a huge outcry anytime anyone mentioned invisibility on the WoW forums (akin to mass hysteria). If they're not forgetting how Pyroblast was nerfed to be less of an instagib than it was last time we had invisibility, they're assuming we all want to be long-range rogues or suggesting we'll be off skipping content as though nobody else can currently do that.
It's clear to me that Blizzard are taking pains to avoid these scenarios. Invisibility in the proposed form is not anything like stealth and I expect we will always have some sort of limit on what we can and can't see in order to ensure that distinction remains. A rogue and druid team will still be more effective for farming bosses without taking along a mage who can only disappear for 20 seconds every five minutes and can't be sure they won't be on top of a mob when they reappear. And if we can't see people who aren't able to see invisible people, we can't acquire a target in readiness for a Pyro-PoM-Pyro attack without them knowing about it (although it may be possible to use an invisibility potion just before you'd start to reappear, then check positioning and get your target, unless they change the potion mechanics too).
I'm hoping the wording allows for us to eat and drink without throwing us back into view, at least. As for being able to blink, teleport etc... it reminds me of the old debate about whether you can use Troll Berserking, PoM and teleport to instantly get to a city. (While the wording of PoM seems to imply this is possible, it isn't. Blizzard are sometimes very careless with their tooltips.)
It will be very interesting to explore the possibilities and to see what adjustments are made before retail.
aye, i myself am reserving judgement until i get to use it either on beta or ingame. I don't want to see a return to the beta versin but it does admittedly look fairly situation heavy in its current form, when it could have a lot more added to it.
Meh more gimmiks. The most disappointing thing is that the gameplay is not gonna change for a mage.
Change gameplay? What exactly were you expecting when you signed up to be a mage? Most classes can play the "bait and switch" card. There is no chance that a mage is one of them.
And anyhow, how is acquiring a pet not a change in gameplay?
All of the new proposed talents and skills mark a significant change in gameplay as far as I'm concerned. The only problem with Invisibility is lack of clarification on what it actually will do, which is why everyone is calling it useless based on the very little description given. Once the 60-70 push happens and people have a chance to play with it, word will leak about how it works, and people will either be justified in their disappointment in the spell or otherwise very pleased with how it really works.
Either way, there's really not much more intelligent discussion that can be had on the topic beyond "I think it will be good for these reasons", "I think it will be bad for these reasons", or "I'll have to wait and see". All of which have made their main points eloquently already.
08/28/06, 11:09 PM
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