The New Mage Invisibility? - Page 5

Heidi · 08/29/06, 4:23 PM

Originally Posted by Aphyrax

If they keep all the current restrictions it has to be combat usable and drop aggro.
If its not combat usable the duration needs to be buffed *massively*.
If the duration is short and its not combat usable, it needs to be instant.
If the duration is short and its not combat usable and they keep the fade I need to be able to see others.

Yes and yes.

And for the frost, I'd do the same or something very nearly like it. Its just a playstyle preference for me. I like snaring, frostbiting, etc... I've had it, too, for almost two years. I tried fire with the *free* respec on our mage review. Within about 4 hours I had switched to even more frost than I had had in my previous build.

Copernicus · 08/29/06, 5:04 PM

So I've been working on the math for mages...

EDIT: Removed spreadsheet because of flaws, an accurate one is lower in the thread, including a download link.

My assumptions were base 10% crit, 700 dmg, and 400 int (after AI).
For Molten Fury, I went with 6% more damage. I did not include Playing With Fire, Combustion, Curses, or Rolling Ignites. For Fireball I assumed Improved Scorch would always be up there. To simulate the bonus of +hit% from Empowered Frostbolt and Arcane Focus, I converted the extra hit% over the 6 from Elemental Precision to more crit%.

I used the AQ40 ranks for Frostbolt, Fireball, and Arcane Missiles. As for specs, the two fire ones are Clearcasting, 40+ Fire talents, and Elemental Precision. Frostbolt 1 is 40+ Frost with Clearcasting, while frostbolt 2 is 40 Arcane 21 Frost. The two arcanes are with 41+ points in arcane, ignoring anything elemental trees give.

The mana back is covering clearcasting, JoW, and Master of Elements (two fire builds only for MoE).

Maklar · 08/29/06, 5:22 PM

Does your 10% crit take into account the int? Does the increase in taking Arcane talents to raise your int take into account the crit bonus from doing so?

Copernicus · 08/29/06, 5:28 PM

Originally Posted by Maklar

Does your 10% crit take into account the int? Does the increase in taking Arcane talents to raise your int take into account the crit bonus from doing so?

Yes, kinda. The crit% is relatively low compared to what gear could be. I'm assuming a mage is concentrating more on +dmg gear than crit% gear. Raising the crit% makes the situation better for Fire and worse for Arcane, as compared to Frost. Keeping the crit% low also let me simulate the 4%/5% hit bonus that Arcane or Frost would get by pretending it was crit%.

I forgot to include the additional 1% crit that a Mage would get from going deep into Arcane.

Sancus · 08/29/06, 5:29 PM

To simulate the bonus of +hit% from Empowered Frostbolt and Arcane Focus, I converted the extra hit% over the 6 from Elemental Precision to more crit%.

Um... what? There's a much bigger chance that that extra %hit will result in outright wastage than extra crit%. You can only compensate for early capped %hit with gear so far before you are hamstrung by gear availability.

Honestly, it's already hard enough to avoid capping with just Elemental Precision. With empowered frostbolt or arcane focus, I can almost 100% guarantee that you are going to have a lot of wasted %hit, not extra crit.

Still, though, it pretty much clinches the point. Arcane Blast might be viable for burst if they had kept Arcane Potency as giving it 2x crits, but, at such a tiny bonus over fire(and I doubt it even is any better when you account for rolling Ignites), its horribly low DPM makes it a bad spec.

Aphyrax · 08/29/06, 5:29 PM

How did you come up with the numbers for arcane blast, specifically the speedup part? It strikes me as odd that the spell has the highest DPS and lowest DPM of all mage nukes.

Sancus · 08/29/06, 5:32 PM

Originally Posted by Aphyrax

How did you come up with the numbers for arcane blast, specifically the speedup part? It strikes me as odd that the spell has the highest DPS and lowest DPM of all mage nukes.

Arcane Blast is a 2.5s cast time spell. When you cast it, it buffs you with a buff that increases the mana cost of the spell by 40% and decreases casting time by 0.2s. So yes, once it becomes a 1.5s cast time, the mana cost is increased by a whopping 200%.

Copernicus · 08/29/06, 5:35 PM

Originally Posted by Aphyrax

How did you come up with the numbers for arcane blast, specifically the speedup part? It strikes me as odd that the spell has the highest DPS and lowest DPM of all mage nukes.

Arcane Blast gets -0.2 seconds per a cast and +40% mana cost, based on the tooltip from the screenshot.

That takes it from a 2.5 second spell at 190 mana to a 1.5 second spell at 570 mana. 2.5 -> 1.5 represents a 66% increase to dmg from +dmg gear.

As for the hit% cap, there's not much I can say. Have to make some assumptions for guessing about possible gear. This is all just guesswork and theorycraft at this point anyways, more of a starting point for discussion than anything people will use in even a month's time.

Sancus · 08/29/06, 5:41 PM

As for the hit% cap, there's not much I can say. Have to make some assumptions for guessing about possible gear.

Actually.. I can suggest a more realistic guess. All %hit ratings are being changed to Spell Hit Rating at 8 rating per %hit. It's likely that 8 Spell Hit Rating will provide you much /less/ than 1% hit at level 70, so basically everyone's spellhit% from gear will go down.

It's probably best to assume, at most, 5% hit from gear. That means everyone is losing damage, but Fire hurts the most at only 6% hit, whereas Frost has 11% and Arcane has 10. Recalculate for 16% hit on Frost, 11% Fire, 15% Arcane.

Copernicus · 08/29/06, 6:00 PM

Originally Posted by Sancus

As for the hit% cap, there's not much I can say. Have to make some assumptions for guessing about possible gear.

Actually.. I can suggest a more realistic guess. All %hit ratings are being changed to Spell Hit Rating at 8 rating per %hit. It's likely that 8 Spell Hit Rating will provide you much /less/ than 1% hit at level 70, so basically everyone's spellhit% from gear will go down.

It's probably best to assume, at most, 5% hit from gear. That means everyone is losing damage, but Fire hurts the most at only 6% hit, whereas Frost has 11% and Arcane has 10. Recalculate for 16% hit on Frost, 11% Fire, 15% Arcane.

That adds another 2% to Arcane's damage, while keeping Frost's damage about the same. I'll redo the spreadsheet when I get home and can post it so that people can put in their own numbers.

My basic conclusions stay the same though. Unless Water Elemental is really really good, the specs are going to be 40/21 Arcane/Frost for hybrid PvP and PvE, and 1?/4?/3 for Fire. If a frost Mage is ever in the situation where they need to ramp up their damage quickly for burst DPS, Arcane Blast does represent an average option... just a very mana hungry one.

Then again, if mobs in PvE are somehow vulnerable to the frozen or dazed condition, it will change the situation drasticly.

Kalman · 08/29/06, 6:00 PM

I find it interesting that Water Elemental is on a 30 second cooldown.

Sancus · 08/29/06, 6:52 PM

My basic conclusions stay the same though. Unless Water Elemental is really really good, the specs are going to be 40/21 Arcane/Frost for hybrid PvP and PvE, and 1?/4?/3 for Fire. If a frost Mage is ever in the situation where they need to ramp up their damage quickly for burst DPS, Arcane Blast does represent an average option... just a very mana hungry one.

This does underestimate the need for survivability over dps. Ice Barrier is just plain awesome for PvE survivability and cutting the load on healers. When you consider that Ice Floes cuts its cooldown to 24 seconds, as well as cutting cooldowns of your oh-crap survivability buttons, if there are any serious encounters where survivability is a major issue, Frost could be important.

But yes, a *lot* hinges on the usability of that Water Elemental.

Jaerel · 08/29/06, 6:53 PM

Originally Posted by Kalman

I find it interesting that Water Elemental is on a 30 second cooldown.

Well, WE's in WC3 were never all that powerful...But when you summoned 2-3 of them, they could be quite a force, especially early on.

Would be kinda interesting if you could duplicate the same thing here...ackward to command, but if you could time your attack when you'd just summoned a 2nd or 3rd WE, it was a significant boost in power.

KalelScilla · 08/29/06, 7:05 PM

Originally Posted by Kalman

I find it interesting that Water Elemental is on a 30 second cooldown.

Perhaps you can control more than one at once. It also has a reagent per-cast and is a 10 second cast.

Heidi · 08/29/06, 7:23 PM

Originally Posted by Sancus

This does underestimate the need for survivability over dps. Ice Barrier is just plain awesome for PvE survivability and cutting the load on healers. When you consider that Ice Floes cuts its cooldown to 24 seconds, as well as cutting cooldowns of your oh-crap survivability buttons, if there are any serious encounters where survivability is a major issue, Frost could be important.

But yes, a *lot* hinges on the usability of that Water Elemental.

The two shaman ones appear to be 2 minute duration. I'd wager ours is basically the same. Who cares if ours is a 41 point talent? I'd bet its not that useful. For frost, it better cast frostbolts that proc frostbite..

Copernicus · 08/29/06, 7:38 PM

Name       	Dmg	Crit%	Int	Hit%	DPS	MPS  	DPM	DPS w/ Hit	Delay
Fireball   	700	8    	400	5	745.07	99.94 	7.45	707.81  	0.2
Scorch     	700	8    	400	5	555.81	57.29 	9.7 	528.02  	0.2
Frostbolt 1	700	8    	400	5	555.02	71.24 	7.79	555.02  	0.2
Frostbolt 2	700	8    	400	5	568.68	71.24 	7.98	540.25  	0.2
Arc. Blast 	700	8    	400	5	743.05	284.41	2.44	735.62  	0.2
Arc. Miss. 	700	8    	400	5	572.69	208.55	2.56	566.97  	0

-----

Fireball   	700	8    	400	5	794.74	106.61	7.45	755   	0
Scorch     	700	8    	400	5	629.92	64.93 	9.7 	598.42	0
Frostbolt 1	700	8    	400	5	599.42	76.94 	7.79	599.42	0
Frostbolt 2	700	8    	400	5	614.18	76.94 	7.43	583.47	0
Arc. Blast 	700	8    	400	5	842.12	322.33	2.44	833.70	0

My original spreadsheet had some flaws in it, specifically with the second Frostbolt. EDIT: Fixed another flaw, need to find a host for the spreadsheet.

I'm not including stats for Combustion, rolling Ignites, or the bonuses available for curses. Hit percentage is against +3 levels, and I'm not checking for the 99% cap. So it's possible to put in numbers and exceed the 100% hit rate. It assumes a 59.5 int for 1% crit, ignoring the base 0.2% crit that mages get. MPS is slightly off because it's working off a 100% hit percentage and then factoring in JoW, Clearcasting, and MoE.

Fireball - Clearcasting, every fire talent except Playing with Fire. Molten Fury simulated by +6% damage.
Scorch - Clearcasting, every fire talent except Playing with Fire. Molten Fury simulated by +6% damage.
Frostbolt 1 - Clearcasting, every frost talent
Frostbolt 2 - 40/21 Arcane/Frost, no Arcane Potency
Arcane Blast - 41+ in Arcane, with Arcane Potency
Arcane Missles - 41+ in Arcane, with Arcane Potency

Bibdy · 08/29/06, 7:47 PM

Is it just me or did they re-use icons for talents in ALL THREE of the mage talent trees?

Burnserker142 · 08/29/06, 8:20 PM

ripe off

Sancus · 08/29/06, 8:38 PM

Originally Posted by Heidi

The two shaman ones appear to be 2 minute duration. I'd wager ours is basically the same. Who cares if ours is a 41 point talent? I'd bet its not that useful. For frost, it better cast frostbolts that proc frostbite..

It can't be the same. Theirs are a 20 minute cooldown, ours has a 30 second cooldown and a 10 second summoning time. That basically means its a permanent pet, whereas theirs are "burst" pets. Doubt they have any real relation to eachother.

Here's the real question though: What is the purpose of the Arcane Tree and Arcane Blast, and how can they be changed to realize that purpose? Because right now, Arcane damage as a concept is just a horribly low dpm alternative to Fire that isn't quite as good in actual dps.

Personally, I think the idea is that Arcane is supposed to have the highest BURST potential, with the worst mana efficiency. That's fine. But 2.5dpm is stupid -- that's not remotely sustainable. They need to lower the mana cost on Arcane Blast, and up the damage so that it's slightly better dps as well, but maintain the dpm as significantly lower than Fireball spam. Just not 60% lower.

Also, please, screw off with Slow or make it a reasonable 41pt talent. I know they have a hard-on for making wc3 spells into WoW spells, but how is a Slow appropriate for the primary burst tree?

Nurru · 08/29/06, 9:22 PM

Originally Posted by Sancus

Also, please, screw off with Slow or make it a reasonable 41pt talent. I know they have a hard-on for making wc3 spells into WoW spells, but how is a Slow appropriate for the primary burst tree?

Arcane has always struck me as more of a utility/support tree than burst. PoM and AP are nothing without a good primary talentset from fire or frost.

Sancus · 08/29/06, 10:05 PM

Originally Posted by Nurru

Originally Posted by Sancus

Also, please, screw off with Slow or make it a reasonable 41pt talent. I know they have a hard-on for making wc3 spells into WoW spells, but how is a Slow appropriate for the primary burst tree?

Arcane has always struck me as more of a utility/support tree than burst. PoM and AP are nothing without a good primary talentset from fire or frost.

But it's clear that with Arcane Blast they are trying to make PoM and AP something without a 'good primary talentset'.

KalelScilla · 08/29/06, 10:10 PM

Each max-stacked arcane blast would be 741 mana with arcane power on - good damage or not, that would drain your mana pool in under 20 seconds, even starting from 9000. Arcane missiles really isn't much better. Hard to believe they'd expect you to use arcane-only nukes. Mages *WILL* be casting scorch, frostbolt, and fireball in the expansion, with the arcane blasts, ice lances and other goodies tossed in for variety as the situation requires it. There will still be no use for arcane missiles. Even fully specced for it the mana efficiency is awful.

Why didn't they add an arcane bolt spell along with arcane blast, such that pure arcane is useful?

Cagalli · 08/30/06, 1:49 AM

If they changed Arcane Potency back to being like Ice Shards it would make AM/Arcane Blast much more viable, though a 40 Arc 21 Ice build would have much stronger Frostbolts than deep frost assuming you have a Winter's Chill bitch already.

Now looking at the new weapon enchants as well as some tailoring branches does anyone else think they may be going down the road of making arc/fire and frost/shadow +dmg items somewhat standard?

We have the +50 Sunfire dmg enchant along with the +54 Soulfrost and here's the two tailoring paths

http://www.curse-gaming.com/en/wow/s...tailoring.html
http://www.curse-gaming.com/en/wow/s...tailoring.html

Could be an indication of where they are going with specfic +dmg items

Edit

Also I noticed that our last Fireball and Frostbolt ranks are level 66 and 68 respectively, looks like they're going to eventually end up with something like the AQ 20 Tomes in a content patch in the far off future.

• Chicken · 08/30/06, 6:31 AM

Originally Posted by Bibdy

Is it just me or did they re-use icons for talents in ALL THREE of the mage talent trees?

They're obviously preparing so they can make lots of patch notes with "Added new icon to random mage thingy". I know all the Mages love their new icons in patches.

Vax · 08/30/06, 6:39 AM

Originally Posted by Chicken

I know all the Mages love their new icons in patches.

who isn't?
btw i'm collecting signatures for our ambush (with staff - 250 max dmg weeee!) and vanish pertition! ;)