I guess I would get annoyed of clueless people discrediting my kills simply because I was alliance, they are still incredible achievements! Grats DnT. If it was such a walk in the park for alliance, we would of see more alliance guilds kill them. We did what we had to, to kill them. And we will continue doing that in the future. It’s not our fault it’s designed that way. Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying having 8 warriors in DN is essential but it certainly helps. You can stick to your ways with your 4 tanks or you can adjust to get the kill, your choice. I can’t argue about totems without saying too much about our way of killing them =(. With our current strat totems are a waste of mana. I guess we could adjust our strat to accommodate totems more now, but why change? Whine aside, what’s important to us is that they are dead.
Replying to some assumptions people made:
There is a hunter and warlock in the raid. We have to recruit. If you can keep your 40 members from your onyxia first kill playing the game, good! Sadly people move on. They aren’t disloyal and join other guilds, they quit the game. We have our fun, and that’s all that’s needed. Finally, sure some of our rogues didn’t get their loot during our tanks gearing up, but guess what. Now they do.
The fight is doable with a normal raid force right now. The reason guilds stack the raids is to make up for player error while people are still learning the fight.
Personally, I think it is bullshit and wish they would do away with it. In my opinion they should limit the number of players of each class you can bring to the raids. Would it really hurt if you couldn't bring more then 7-8 of any class to a raid ? For most first kills all guilds do is stack their raid force with the classes needed for the fight and frankly, it's gimp. Later on, as they get better at the fight, the raid force returns to normal.
Most initial kills for the Four Horsemen are going to have tons of Warriors but they aren't needed, they just allow you to fuck up a lot more and still win. Same shit with Loatheb. Outside buffs aren't needed for Loatheb, but they allow your DPS to fuck up and you can still win.
I think it would be nice if the fights remained hard and guilds(everyone) should not be able to gimp an encounter by stacking classes. For example, you can use druid tanks on the Four Horsemen and if guilds couldn't stack Warriors and had to use druid tanks, they would've died just the same, it just would've taken longer since the execution would need to be better.
It has to be said, the two guilds most likely to get them did, and thoroughly deserve it. And now DnT have a warrior walking around with 8/9 Dreadnought, which is super cool more than anything. I'm probably going out on a string here by saying that if Nax utilised the same Armour set up as Molten Core and Blackwing Lair, where it is the actual items dropping rather than tokens, it might have been anther week or two if drops had been screwy and only PLagueheart was dropping :) I might log on to Magtheridon later and hug all the Nihilium guys in Org.
I remember Vael being downed, and Horde crying over BoS. I think that's what made Blizzard give Shamans TA totem iirc. Anyway, some guild (I forget) made a nice image with characters arranged to form 'BOS' as the secret to the fight. I see the same thing now, sooner or later Blizzard will probably nerf 4H and Loatheb somehow to tune it to the casuals. But thats not for a long time and I hope it doesn't happen, since it's meant to be a slow progressive instance, not a 'kill-a-day' sort of feat.
Originally Posted by Z-Factor
It has to be said, the two guilds most likely to get them did, and thoroughly deserve it. And now DnT have a warrior walking around with 8/9 Dreadnought, which is super cool more than anything. I'm probably going out on a string here by saying that if Nax utilised the same Armour set up as Molten Core and Blackwing Lair, where it is the actual items dropping rather than tokens, it might have been anther week or two if drops had been screwy and only PLagueheart was dropping :) I might log on to Magtheridon later and hug all the Nihilium guys in Org.
So 3rd place to Curse, Redemption or Forte? ;)
Kel'Thuzad's random ring drop will probably bring the flooding cry of Felheart/Cenarius all over again. But that's not for a long time.
the funny thing about both of the 4h kills is that DnT and nihilium were actively recruiting 4 piece DN warriors cross-server :-P we've been actively gearing up ours, but didn't go quite that far heh.
We've geared up 6 warriors ourselves and recruited 2 tanks with 4 DN or more. And if you check the picture carefully you can see that all of them doesn't have 4 DN. Server transfers has been a positive thing for us being on a lowpop realm with 70% alliance. (http://www.warcraftrealms.com/census.php?serverid=566)
and
having 8 warriors in the raid is not equal to having 8 tanks in the raid. You can actually put tank gear on a fury warrior and make him act/look like a tank :)
As a rogue, it's incredibly frustrating that blizzard makes such an encounter which NEEDS a fixed amount of tanks with the 4 set bonus, especially when the droprate can vary so much
How many pieces of BS do your rogues have? My old guild blew up, but while we were in there, we went in having already made the decision who was getting splinters, and what tank was getting DN first. Our short-sightedness was in not anticipating one would need 8 tanks in 4pc DN. Regardless, we didn't get very far before the guild exploded. So, all that hashing out was kinda for naught.
We have 3 "MTs" who are getting the first 3 t3 items of every kind. After that it's up for rogue grabs. I have 2 pieces personally which is the average t3 count for rogues pretty much. But we've also been rather unlucky with the drops as we've had our first t3 helmets drop on our 7th (6th?) Thaddius kill if I'm not mistaken, and loatheb has yet to bless us with any w/r leggings.
That however, is all changed now. I'm pretty sure we're passing the w/r items now in order to gear up our other tanks, which I really don't have a problem with. I'm content with item embargos if it's in the name of progress.
However, it's good to know that 4 DN isn't as imperative as one might think Xi, but would you mind getting it confirmed by your warriors? No disrespect, I'm just curious if they think the same way you do :-)
Whowever, it's good to know that 4 DN isn't as imperative as one might think Xi, but would you mind getting it confirmed by your warriors? No disrespect, I'm just curious if they think the same way you do :-)
The last person who brought a question to XI ended up in a steamy post on the D+T front page, just to forewarn you :)
Well, my guild is nowhere near Naxrammas, but for an encounter like 4H i think you would want to have as many warriors capable of soaking up damage as possible due to taunt rotation. And Dreadnought is the best equipment at the moment that does that. Although whilst 8 bracers/boots/belts/gloves can be fairly common, giving them all shoulders/legs/helmets is a lot harder especially considering that Loatheb and Thaddius have only had about 8 weeks or so of kills for these guilds, and whilst seeing 8 desecrated helmets is great for progress, it's unlikely that many will have been relinquished by Thaddius.
Hence the cross-realm recruiting i guess, but those people making and qualifying for those applications are the types of people who really want to be amongst that content and so would benefit from places in these guilds. And it's good for us spectators as we can see Saphiron videos.
The problem is exactly that, though. A tank is never safer than moments after his health has just dipped to critically low levels. Every healer in the raid simultaneously freaks out and a lot of overhealing follows. The concept is great, but as you said, something that makes the tank less likely to die in those situations would be incredible -- something that enhances heals once they already land is meh.
I am curious what you think of the new 30 point Paladin Protection talent Ardent Defender:
5/5
When your health is below 20%, reduces all damage against you by 50%
Clearly it does not make up for the passive mitigation a warrior has in Def stance over the course of a long stable fight, but it seems like it would help in spikey situations.
Anyway not gonna bother more with morons that talk out of their asses without any clue at all.
Disappointingly, your lack of profile and subsequent 3-day :redhammer: isn't a world first.
Originally Posted by Tuco
Grats to Mortalis and the rest of Nihilum.
Hopefully we'll see some more kills of them next week.
Did this greatly amuse anyone else?
Regarding 8pc Dreadnaught, if they wanted a "Cheat Death" ability, they should have made it something like a passive timered effect: Every five minutes, a blow that would have killed the warrior will only reduce him to 1 health (or 20%, or whatever) - that would be an epic set bonus. The current implementation of Cheat Death is rather stupid. You could design encounters around 8/8 Dreadnought where unless you had a bunch of tanks in a Shield Wall rotation, you would quickly run out of tanks. IE Illidan yells: you have angered me for the last time, Tehax! And then hits for 100k, or 30k (such that LastStand+shieldwall could survive it).
Bonuses like the one you suggested could easily prove to become essential for a very long time, despite expansions and whatnot.
It was discussed here on the boards sometime ago, apparently there were certain items in Everquest that had procs/bonuses that were simply too good to ever replace.
Many of the devs were supposedly pretty successfull raiders in various MMO's, so I guess they are, out of experience, very careful when they design bonuses/procs.
Regarding the Four Horsemen, I understand that certain guilds dont want it nerfed because of the challenge it brings. But I believe encounters should be truly challenging through the mechanics of the fight and not due to bad rolls in the combat system. The encounters are after all supposed to be doable with a 5/5/5/5 composition.
The problem with the 4 pce is because the resist rate is 17% the 5% it provides doesn't adequately cover a scenario like 4h in which you're depending on virtually every taunt to land, and you can only use your other o shit moves rather infrequently.
Is it definitive that +melee hit affects taunt hit rate? I have heard this somewhere, but not sure I've ever seen any data from actual testing. Alternatively, does anyone know a good mod I can use to track my own taunt resist rate to test?
the funny thing about both of the 4h kills is that DnT and nihilium were actively recruiting 4 piece DN warriors cross-server :-P we've been actively gearing up ours, but didn't go quite that far heh.
We've geared up 6 warriors ourselves and recruited 2 tanks with 4 DN or more. And if you check the picture carefully you can see that all of them doesn't have 4 DN. Server transfers has been a positive thing for us being on a lowpop realm with 70% alliance. (http://www.warcraftrealms.com/census.php?serverid=566)
and
having 8 warriors in the raid is not equal to having 8 tanks in the raid. You can actually put tank gear on a fury warrior and make him act/look like a tank :)
just to clarify - i'm not criticizing your recruitment, just commenting on the implications of cross-server recruitment and its potential for accellerating kills that might have certain kinds of gear requirements. we haven't put enough time into the horsemen for me to claim that we would've killed them if we'd gone the same route, so i'm certainly not trying to downplay your accomplishment or that of DnT.
The problem is exactly that, though. A tank is never safer than moments after his health has just dipped to critically low levels. Every healer in the raid simultaneously freaks out and a lot of overhealing follows. The concept is great, but as you said, something that makes the tank less likely to die in those situations would be incredible -- something that enhances heals once they already land is meh.
The only fight I can see the 8 piece being regularly beneficial is for a Hateful Strike eater on Patchwerk.
Actually it wouldn't be that useful because with that gear, the hateful strike wouldn't be dropping the tank below the required hp to trigger it. I'm at 10,000 armor and 7,000 hitpoints unbuffed right now and with raid buffs on, hateful strike doesn't take me below at the very most about 40%.
Actually it wouldn't be that useful because with that gear, the hateful strike wouldn't be dropping the tank below the required hp to trigger it. I'm at 10,000 armor and 7,000 hitpoints unbuffed right now and with raid buffs on, hateful strike doesn't take me below at the very most about 40%.
Raid buffed with devotion aura, your armor would be around 13.5k and health of around 10k. In defensive stance, you can still be hit for 6000-8000 on a hateful strike, although some of this damage is mitigated further by shield blocks, PW:S, and inspiration procs. So right off the bat, it would be possibly to just barely hit that 20% mark.
You've probably had tanks die plenty of times from HS, and I doubt it's because they just didn't have the gear. The benefit of having more gear is that you don't have to be fully topped off every time to be able to take a HS. The benefit of the 8/8 buff is that heals hit a little bit harder when you're dipping down to these levels, making it an incremental boost to compensate for bad healing.
Also, as you become fully geared with Naxx items, you'll get to the point where you can reliably eat a hateful strike with raid buffs only, no Titans, no Stoneshield, no Defense, although this will cut things a little close. (That's the possibility, although I'm sure a lot of raids will still burn consumables to ensure an easier victory.)
The point is, even geared out, you'll still have tanks occassionally dip to below 20%, and this will help them get topped off more quickly and efficiently.
The funny thing about patchwerk is that gearing up doesn't necessarily make a kill easier, it just makes it less expensive.
Our first Patchwerk kill I was flasked, oiled and burning runes/mana pots every chance I got. Last Patchwerk kill I burnt... 1? Mana pot and was top for effective healing(Though I wasn't highest in total healing, was 7th in overhealing).
Like people said, T2 + consumables > T3.
So yeah, that 8/8 should be beneficial two months down the line when we don't have to spend hundreds of gold to have a chance to beat patchwerk.
Bonuses like the one you suggested could easily prove to become essential for a very long time, despite expansions and whatnot.
It was discussed here on the boards sometime ago, apparently there were certain items in Everquest that had procs/bonuses that were simply too good to ever replace.
Not to derail too much but isn't that really what 3 pc tran is like? Most of the priests I know are planning on keeping 3 pc tran bonus on even with the rest being faith just because the bonus is so good, and it scales with better gear!
The problem with the 4 pce is because the resist rate is 17% the 5% it provides doesn't adequately cover a scenario like 4h in which you're depending on virtually every taunt to land, and you can only use your other o shit moves rather infrequently.
Is it definitive that +melee hit affects taunt hit rate? I have heard this somewhere, but not sure I've ever seen any data from actual testing. Alternatively, does anyone know a good mod I can use to track my own taunt resist rate to test?
We had that linked on our IRC a week or so ago, but best I could figure it was never linked to any talent or set bonus, maybe they were testing various balances for the set bonus.
08/29/06, 6:02 AM
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