We had our second Patchwerk kill this week so we're progressing on him quite well, I just had a quick question to other Priests that have done this fight.
We usually run a 16 healer raid with a 4/5/5/2 breakdown using 3 OT's, generally just spreading out the Priests among the MT/OTs. The past 2 weeks I've been a MT healer but most other Priests are running into the same problem I have and that is simply not having the mana to last this fight. Currently sitting at some T3, some AQ40 and T2 so my gear isn't bad, however it's not incredible but I still can't go the entire distance on this fight without a Flask and hitting Major/Demonic Runes at every cooldown.
The past 2 times we've killed Patch I've literally done nothing but spam Gheal1 the entire fight, non-stop while chugging pots etc and even after an innervate I still find myself scrambling through my spellbook for the last 10%. Spell cancelling just doesn't seem like an option with the 400+ ping that my guild usually runs with (spell will cast 90% of the time anyway, or I'll get 2-3 seconds of "not ready yet" errors etc) so I'm basically just wondering if there's any way to improve the way I heal that won't require me to chug a Flask every week. If not, it's not so bad but it still physically hurts me when I hear of people going an entire fight with 1-2 mana pots ;)
I like to thank to all the suggestions within this thread that helped us to kill Patchwerk faster than we thought. As a tribute I am sharing my parser (written for Linux) for patchwerk data.
Data from our first kill.
HS Hits: 265
HS Total Time: 6:33.375 [393.375]
HS Average Time: 1.490 seconds
HS Missed: 36 [13.58%]
HS Parried: 37 [13.96%]
HS Dodged: 21 [7.92%]
HS Landed: 171 [64.52%]
HS Total Damage: 1138872 [6660.07 damage/hit]
Back on page 10, Rygers posted this parsed data.
Why does everyone say that HS comes every 1.2 seconds?
The damage and given time of the fight in the data above is similar to what I've observed in our fights that have lasted that long (average HS damage, total damage taken by tanks for the given fight length). So I'm inclined to think his data is good, which would indicate a HS time of 1.5 seconds.
Anyone have any data to support the 1.2 second time?
/combatlogs clearly show 1.2 seconds.
They can come as slow as 2 seocnds once in a while - but the fastest they come is basically 1.2 - and thats the theoretical limit you have to prepare for.
It seems odd to for this fight that it could be 1.2 seconds sometimes and 2 seconds other times? This fight screams heavy, consistent damage. Patchwerk has 310 weapon skill so he can't crushing blow, and you only need 435 defense to prevent any crits on the MT. HS can't crit or crushing blow.
HS may or may not be affected by thunderclap/thunderfury, although that would require testing. I wouldn't be surprised if lag caused some blows to come closer together than others, and some blows to be further apart. But going from 2 seconds to 1.2 seconds would be a 67% damage increase. It seems like a weird thing for this fight.
Pages of it - 90% are 1.2 seconds... Maybe someone else has one ready to go but I can't say I really wanna edit it down - if you would like I could host it... its just an old combatlog i've used for countless patchwerk arguments from early July.
And I don't see TC or TF affecting HS timing on this log... i even see a 1.0 after a TF just browsing it. The 2.0's are exceedingly rare, just like the 1.0 - maybe its lag.
What are you trying to figure out exactly? Maybe if you told us that folks would lend you their opinion.
I am quite curious about the 1.490 overall as well - but only in a scientific fashion. The plan has to be robust against worst case scenarios and streaks, meaning why thats the case is almost moot.
Pages of it - 90% are 1.2 seconds... Maybe someone else has one ready to go but I can't say I really wanna edit it down - if you would like I could host it... its just an old combatlog i've used for countless patchwerk arguments from early July.
And I don't see TC or TF affecting HS timing on this log... i even see a 1.0 after a TF just browsing it. The 2.0's are exceedingly rare, just like the 1.0 - maybe its lag.
What are you trying to figure out exactly? Maybe if you told us that folks would lend you their opinion.
I am quite curious about the 1.490 overall as well - but only in a scientific fashion. The plan has to be robust against worst case scenarios and streaks, meaning why thats the case is almost moot.
I've got the same interest. Ultimately, we have a strategy, and a lot of other people have strategies, and they all seem to work fine. So if I won't lose sleep if I'm not certain.
I'd agree that I don't see TC or TF affecting HS timing.
But I'd expect the result to be that HS is always 1.2 seconds (but you see different times sometimes because of lag) or HS is always 1.5 seconds (but you see different times sometimes because of lag).
If you want to host it, I'll try and parse through it.
We used a 4/7/4/1 healing setup on our first kill a few days ago
Parsed combatlog data for anyone interested, courtesy of Zerion:
(he also parsed healing data, which I've omitted)
Damage on MT:
Total swings: 458
Attack Speed: 0.732
Average hit (unblocked): 1926.912
Max hit (unblocked): 2511.000
Patchwerk's DPS Out (before avoidance/block): 2631.828
MT's DPS In (after avoidance): 1217.262 (how much damage he really took)
Avoidance:
* 106 Dodge (23.14%)
* 226 Hit (49.34%)
* 42 Miss (9.17%)
* 84 Parry (18.34%)
Hateful Strike data:
Attack Speed: 1.241
(TF proc was on almost 100% afaik, with MT and fury dps warrior using it)
OT1:
Total swings: 200
Average hit (unblocked): 6349.734
Max hit (unblocked): 8055.000
Patchwerk DPS Out (before avoidance/block): 3628.585
OT1 DPS In (after avoidance): 1406.479
Damage Blocked: 9384.000
Tank Avoidance:
* 55 Dodge (27.50%)
* 79 Hit (39.50%)
* 26 Miss (13.00%)
* 40 Parry (20.00%)
OT2:
Total swings: 70
Average hit (unblocked): 7001.129
Max hit (unblocked): 8812.000
Patchwerk DPS Out (before avoidance/block): 1414.435
OT2 DPS In (after avoidance): 613.549
Damage Blocked: 4450.000
Tank Avoidance:
* 14 Dodge (20.00%)
* 31 Hit (44.29%)
* 8 Miss (11.43%)
* 14 Parry (20.00%)
OT3 (used rage pots instead of stoneshield):
Total swings: 13
Average hit (unblocked): 8123.667
Max hit (unblocked): 9132.000
Patchwerk DPS Out (before avoidance/block): 382.247
OT3 DPS In (after avoidance): 175.694
Damage Blocked: 201.000
Tank Avoidance:
* 2 Dodge (15.38%)
* 6 Hit (46.15%)
* 2 Parry (15.38%)
Last night I set up our healing to take advantage of the Chain Heal rank 1 strat that Gurgthock posted about a few pages back. Worked amazingly well. As he said, it takes a shaman with a lot of +healing and mana/5 gear to pull it off, but I was able to keep ancestral fortitude up fairly consistently and it was proccing crits on the 2nd/3rd hops quite often. And as a bonus our 3 warlocks got a hell of a lot more healing than they normally do. Very nice strat if you have the raid make-up to handle it.
My ctprofile for reference - http://ctprofiles.net/3224
And our setup last night was something like this -
MT - Druid x2/Priest/Shaman(me)
OT1 - Druid/Priest x2/Shaman x2
OT2 - Priest x3/Shaman x2
OT3 - Druid x2
Very clean kill overall, not a single death, and our fastest so far at 6:11:88 from the pull. Thanks again for the suggestion Gurgthock.
Last night I set up our healing to take advantage of the Chain Heal rank 1 strat that Gurgthock posted about a few pages back. Worked amazingly well. As he said, it takes a shaman with a lot of +healing and mana/5 gear to pull it off, but I was able to keep ancestral fortitude up fairly consistently and it was proccing crits on the 2nd/3rd hops quite often. And as a bonus our 3 warlocks got a hell of a lot more healing than they normally do. Very nice strat if you have the raid make-up to handle it.
My ctprofile for reference - http://ctprofiles.net/3224
And our setup last night was something like this -
MT - Druid x2/Priest/Shaman(me)
OT1 - Druid/Priest x2/Shaman x2
OT2 - Priest x3/Shaman x2
OT3 - Druid x2
Very clean kill overall, not a single death, and our fastest so far at 6:11:88 from the pull. Thanks again for the suggestion Gurgthock.
I also noticed (OT2) that I was getting almost double the usualy AF/Insp procs on me from before, My average damage taken went down by about 8% that fight from previous encounters with out any gear/consumable changes.
I know its been said, but along these lines - 8 set tier 1 earthfury for shamans is amazing on this fight due to free AH procs. It may sound crazy to drop your tier 3, but the AH will do a lot more for you if you have a high crit rate. And you don't need the extra margin of tier 3 on this fight anyway... anyway, its just another avenue the MT healers can take to bounce.
Wanted to add that we killed Patchwerk for the second time tonight, and with a couple of Dark Runes I was more than set on mana. Thanks to Gurg for the suggestion and everyone else for the input throughout this thread that helped us figure out the best way to approach this encounter healing wise!
How much +healing does your druid have? One druid can keep OT3 up? What spells does he use?
When you single-heal an OT, that OT is a buffer. A 5/4/1 or 5/5/1 approach, which is what I favor based on available healers, basically focuses on keeping OT1 and OT2 always topped off, and they should eat almost all the HS. It's basically a two-tank strat with a third real tank as a buffer to eat an HS that would kill a DPS class if you didn't have the third OT. The single healer on OT3 is just responsible for topping him back off after an HS so that he can eat another one if/when it's necessary. Usually just two max-rank Healing Touches and then maybe something tiny if there's still missing hp, then back to waiting.
This is what we pretty much have been practicing and yet in practice for us it just isnt working. Too often OT3 or OT2 are dying prematurely. Its becoming a quite frustrating experience. We had this setup tonight:
Ive tried various different setups but we always seem to lose OT2 and OT3 at the most inopportune times.
Are you guys using just big 2.5s heals on the OTs or a mixture of fast and slow? Alot of our shamans tend to have mana difficulties later into the fight. All are full tier 2 with Tier 2 weapons for the most part. A couple have at least 2 pieces of Tier 3. Its just that the fight doesnt seem stable at all at times. Even on two attempts OT3 never even took a HS and so the rotation was stuck on OT1 and OT2 for the entirety of the fight. We eventually lost OT2 at about 40%. Id appreciate any advice.
This is what we pretty much have been practicing and yet in practice for us it just isnt working. Too often OT3 or OT2 are dying prematurely. Its becoming a quite frustrating experience. We had this setup tonight:
Ive tried various different setups but we always seem to lose OT2 and OT3 at the most inopportune times.
Are you guys using just big 2.5s heals on the OTs or a mixture of fast and slow? Alot of our shamans tend to have mana difficulties later into the fight. All are full tier 2 with Tier 2 weapons for the most part. A couple have at least 2 pieces of Tier 3. Its just that the fight doesnt seem stable at all at times. Even on two attempts OT3 never even took a HS and so the rotation was stuck on OT1 and OT2 for the entirety of the fight. We eventually lost OT2 at about 40%. Id appreciate any advice.
You sound at the same point we were at on Wednesday.
Make sure all 3 get the HS, if necessary get OT3 to turn his back to Patch so that he cant dodge the 1st HS. As mentioned earlier in this thread if he doesnt eat a HS he will struggle to create enough threat to stay above your dps.
Here's our setup from our first success last night - yay us :)
I was on MT healing and using 3sec Healing Touches, cancelling only very occsionally if I could see he didn't need it. All others using 2.5sec heals. The MT healers were by and large our best-equipped, even so it was a close call - I went oom at 1% having used Major Mana/Runes the whole fight - though the Priest got my Innervate.
1 Shaman on OT3 is deliberate - with no in-combat regen it benefits him more to have a rest between HS on his tank and if mana isnt an issue he can spam low ranks for the armour proc.
We actually lost OT2 just gone halfway through - every healer on him switched to OT3 and despite a couple of close calls we made it with about 20sec until enrage.
The fight doesnt feel stable just yet, an extra healer on OT1 would probably give more of a feel-good factor, but hope this helps.
Michad - depending on your shaman's gear there's a few reasons for that. If they're insisting on using Tier1 for Patch, my experience with our shaman is that they will have a lot of trouble sustaining 7 minutes of constant healing. Have them rank down to Healing Wave rank 5 if they've got the +healing for it, or rank 4 if they're sitting at around 700 +healing. I'd recommend 2 healers on OT3 though, and you can get away with 4 healers on the MT - put 2 of your biggest +heal druids on there, and cut it to 1 priest and 1 shaman.
Yeah i think im going to see what were looking at +healing wise for the majority of our shamans. 3 of them have Widows Embrace and one has Scepter of the Fallen God so they have pretty good weapons to complement that spec. Are you suggesting they should wear more Tier 2? I know alot of our shamans hate it for healing.
Even at times with 3 pieces of Faith, Blessed Qiraji Augur, Cloak of Clarity, etc.... i find myself running out at about the 6:30 mark or close to it. Thats when nail biting sets in.
Would you suggest Druids on the MT use mainly HT Rank 4?
Would you suggest Druids on the MT use mainly HT Rank 4?
Ours do for the most part: HT r4, The "cheap" hot (forget which it is, not the half hot half heal heal), always having NS+giant heal or swiftmend ready.
On the MT we use: 2 druids, 1 8/8 trans priest (you'd be suprised how much that extra HoT helps out on the MT), and 1 sham. We have 2 T'furys so he is always attack speed debuffed though. For guilds without a TF or a warriors spamming T.clap, 5 healers is what is suggested.
Yeah i think im going to see what were looking at +healing wise for the majority of our shamans. 3 of them have Widows Embrace and one has Scepter of the Fallen God so they have pretty good weapons to complement that spec. Are you suggesting they should wear more Tier 2? I know alot of our shamans hate it for healing.
Even at times with 3 pieces of Faith, Blessed Qiraji Augur, Cloak of Clarity, etc.... i find myself running out at about the 6:30 mark or close to it. Thats when nail biting sets in.
Would you suggest Druids on the MT use mainly HT Rank 4?
Another suggestion - tell your OT1 healers to only cancel cast if they are 100% sure he doesnt need a heal, if in doubt let the heal land. Wasteful I know, but we did this and things got a lot better instantly. It's likely they were all cancelling and getting in sync, leading to OT1's HP yoyo-ing wildly instead of receiving a steady stream of heals.
I found also that to avoid healer sync it's useful to pause 0.5 sec now and then instead of continuously cast-cancelling, but dont suggest this to everyone :P
Yeah i think im going to see what were looking at +healing wise for the majority of our shamans. 3 of them have Widows Embrace and one has Scepter of the Fallen God so they have pretty good weapons to complement that spec. Are you suggesting they should wear more Tier 2? I know alot of our shamans hate it for healing.
Even at times with 3 pieces of Faith, Blessed Qiraji Augur, Cloak of Clarity, etc.... i find myself running out at about the 6:30 mark or close to it. Thats when nail biting sets in.
Would you suggest Druids on the MT use mainly HT Rank 4?
Another suggestion - tell your OT1 healers to only cancel cast if they are 100% sure he doesnt need a heal, if in doubt let the heal land. Wasteful I know, but we did this and things got a lot better instantly. It's likely they were all cancelling and getting in sync, leading to OT1's HP yoyo-ing wildly instead of receiving a steady stream of heals.
I found also that to avoid healer sync it's useful to pause 0.5 sec now and then instead of continuously cast-cancelling, but dont suggest this to everyone :P
I see no reason not to put two druids on OT3, by just putting a single one you have a "refill" time of 3 to 6 seconds, with two druids it will be 0 to 3 seconds. The respective loss in refill times for your OT2 by loosing your druid will be significantly less. However I would recommend just having 4 healers on your MT and putting one of the druids on your OT3. Make sure the druids you put on OT3 are 800+ healing. It should help a lot.
I know its been said, but along these lines - 8 set tier 1 earthfury for shamans is amazing on this fight due to free AH procs. It may sound crazy to drop your tier 3, but the AH will do a lot more for you if you have a high crit rate. And you don't need the extra margin of tier 3 on this fight anyway... anyway, its just another avenue the MT healers can take to bounce.
Actually tried this idea on our last Patchwerk kill. No mana issues whatsoever (which was my first concern). Used 2 Major Mana pots, 2 Demonic Runes and 1 Mana Tide. I'm pretty sure the AH and Healing Way procs from the 8 piece bonus helped a lot. Did surprisingly well in total healing. I expected to be near the bottom of the effective healing charts dropping down from my usual T2.5 and T3 mix I use for raiding. I was assigned to OT2 and placed 6-7th in effective healing out of 16 healers IIRC.
Michad - if your shaman are wearing T1, they're still making the old "but the mana regen proc is king for healing" arguement which has been disputed and argued against dozens of times on this board. I advise all my shaman to wear max +healing gear and mana/5. Reasoning - you can't rank down a heal for shit in earthfury, the +healing is pitiful. Tell them to put their Tier 2.5 and good T2 pieces on (hopefully all enchanted with +heal and/or mana/5) so they can rank down to conserve heals.
Our guild uses a non-stop-casting strategy. I start casting HealingWaves the instant we pull, and I never stop healing for 7 minutes straight. Nobody cancels any heals except on OT3. To do this you need a downranked heal that can land for roughly 1k for shaman, and they should probably go through 2 runes, 2 mana pots, 2 mana tides (throw it down early in the fight) and they'd better have mana spring down the entire time with no breaks.
10/07/06, 1:03 AM
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