The spell is learned at level 22, and the base points for healing on the spell keep increasing until level 27. So, level 27 is considered the spell’s max level in our calculation.
This is the key part. I honesty don't know what level my heals max out at, but obviously it is not the same as the level I get them.
So it's not '54' it's 'some level before 54 that may or may not depend what level you get the spell at'.
Originally Posted by bartolimu
It makes me want to hit Marge Thatcher on the nose with a rolled up newspaper.
Well, I actually think Patchwerk might be one of the less affected encounters with the downranking nerf. I actually heal for about 100 more with gheal 1, the spell i use most, on test as I do on live, while about 100 less with heal 4. I also gain 100 to each tick of my renew. However, non healing spec priests/druids might see a much grimmer picture as my increases were mostly due to the change with spiritual healing. I suspect some more pvp/damage specced healers may be quite hurt by the downranking change, while the more healing specced ones will see a nice increase.
Hmmm, one issue with the HoT strategy is mana usage.
With 4 pc Dreamwalker, my rejuvs still cost 349 mana each. 4 rejuvs every 12 seconds is 140 rejuvs over the 7 minute fight, or 48860 mana. 80% of the time I'd be within the 5 second rule, and even with full raid buffs, mage blood, oil, nightfin, 3 major mana pots, and 3 dark runes, I'd still only be at 38667 mana, so I personally couldn't maintain this strategy with a max rank rejuv for the fight.
Might be worth lowering your healing and mana regen slightly but going with 8/8 Stormrage for that extra tick so you can stay outside the 5-second rule 33% more (9 seconds instead of 6 seconds).
I still don't think HoTs have the healing/sec to withstand Hateful Strikes. Assuming even distrubution of HSs across three OTs, that's potentially 7K damage every 3.6 seconds, or 1944hp/s. With 450-ticking rejuvs/renews, that's 150hp/s each, so you'd need 13 of them on each of the tanks to keep up. Of course avoidance helps, but you need to be able to withstand those 4-5 streaks of no avoidance without a tank death.
Thinking of it another way, you're guaranteed a HoT tick per HS (again assuming even distribution of HSs among three OTs), so to fully recover from an 7500 HS you'd need 16-17 HoTs on him. Fewer than that an you risk falling behind the HSs. And there's probably a way for the ticks to line up such that you get a 2.4 second interval between HSs on a particular tank, but thinking about that makes my head hurt.
Well, I actually think Patchwerk might be one of the less affected encounters with the downranking nerf. I actually heal for about 100 more with gheal 1, the spell i use most, on test as I do on live, while about 100 less with heal 4. I also gain 100 to each tick of my renew. However, non healing spec priests/druids might see a much grimmer picture as my increases were mostly due to the change with spiritual healing. I suspect some more pvp/damage specced healers may be quite hurt by the downranking change, while the more healing specced ones will see a nice increase.
Sapph will be the biggest hit to the change. Patch will change how people have to heal, but it's not a huge deal, especially if you are already geared up some.
Apparation, the following blue post indicates that the "level 40 cap" on downranking is not correct. Any spell below level 54 will be penalized.
In practice on the PTR the "level 40" cap is effectively the case though. With talents being applied after gear my Greater Heal (1) is basically equal to what it is on live despite the downranking changes. Few average numbers with this spec and the gear in my CTProfile (Which you can view by clicking my character name on the left, 1009 healing as I recall according to the character sheet):
Heal (2): 1000 average
Heal (3): 1300 average
Greater Heal (1): 2000 average
Didn't try the other spells, but I can try getting some numbers on other spells if someone's interested when I have some more time.
My Renew also jumped up from ~440 a tick to 500 a tick.
The talents being applied after gear is a huge difference.
buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of
I posed the question about HoT stacking because my guild never *got* the reactive or proactive heal strats for Patchwerk. We spent weeks working on it. We finally just had to make all the healers use max consumables for mana regen and cast non-stop for the entire fight, killed him on like the 3rd attempt of using that model. However, its not going to be as effective after the patch and might be damn near impossible.
I worked out the numbers for a HoT healing strategy at, with 6 druids and 5 priests with +500 healing each, about 4.5k healed per tank (MT and all three OTs) on page 16 of this thread... Most guilds will be at +600, maybe 700, which should boost that to like 5k. You have to close the gap but that's only 11 healers committed, meaning you can have your remaining healers cycling under-3-sec heals on the OTs.
From my point of view, the problem is that I'm spending 360 mana times 4 tanks every 12 seconds, or 1440 mana; over 7 minutes, that's 50400 mana. Roughly speaking, I should regenerate about 20 mana per second while casting, including Reflection, 3-piece SR, improved AQ20 BOWisdom, and brilliant mana oil, or 8400 mana. I should be able to innervate myself twice, for another 3700 mana. In short, expected mana regeneration is way less than the expected outgoing.
The way I see it, any successful healing strategy that doesn't rely on mad consumables has to take advantage of dodge and parry on the tanks' parts, saving us mana.
Our guild alliance hasn't hit Patchwerk yet, but I'm looking forward to when we do, and can actually put theorycraft to test.
Out curiosity, do your Patch-farming guilds' priests typically switch up ranks between longer and flash heals depending on how the HS is landing (or expected to land), or do you just stick with a single rank of Heal or GHeal? We're trying to sort out whether an OT3 is really necessary to eat a HS on those no-avoidance streaks, or whether we can handle it with two OTs and well-timed switches to Flash Heals.
We've been doing it with three OTs and just healing up OT3 as quickly as possible to make sure he's there to absorb a no-avoidance-HS-streak as much as possible, but are wondering if we can lessen our reliance on him.
Tuftears - only 20 mana per second while casting? I get 19 per second with just Reflection/SR bonus. Nightfin Soup and Mana Oil raise me to 23 mps, if I had BoW I'd get 31 mps, and I could be considered excessively +healing based (some druids in my guild have over +75 MP5 and about 30 more spirit). You'll also get a tic of full regen every cycle.
Still that's certainly nowhere near the 50400 mana required for keeping 4 Rejuv's up.
My guild uses a Priest spamming Renews on the raid to do the kiting for Gluth, even with 400 Spirit every Druid Innervates him and he gets a Mana Tide or 2, he also has to drink pots/runes. If a Priest can barely keep it up for a 5 minute fight, a Druid definately can't manage it for 7, treeform or not.
The priest on gluth would be casting every global cooldown wouldnt he? On patchwerk, you would only need to cast 3-4 renews (depending on how many hs tanks you use) every 15 seconds, meaning you can get up to 6 seconds of full spirit regen each cycle. This of course would change if you have to cast gheal at all (which is probably the case).
What if we just stacked enough HoTs to heal roughly half of the HS DPS instead, and only on OT1 and OT2. OT3 just isn't a healing issue period, no need to worry about him, and the MT is such steady dmg that I'm not concerned.
I'll go with what I'm going to have by that point: ToL spec, 4/9 T3, 3/8 T2, +924 healing, 307 spi, 60 MP5
307 * .25 = 76 + 926 = +1000 healing
((307 / 5) + 15) = 76.4/tic * .3 = 22.92/tic while casting.
60 + 12 + 8 = 80 MP5 buffed / 2.5 = 32 MPT
108.4 outside, 54.92 inside
Rejuv Rank 11: 360 mana * .8 * .97 = 280 mana. 1000 * .8 * 1.2 = 960 + 888 = 1848 * 2310 total healing (I could probably downrank to 10 which works out to 260 mana.)
Casting on 2 tanks every 12 seconds: 2 * 260 * 35 = 18200 mana cost.
8/12 seconds 'while casting', 4/12 seconds 'outside' = (54.92 * 8/12) + (108.4 * 4/12) = 72.75 average tic / 2 = 36.37 mps * (7 * 60) = 15276.8 mana per fight.
18200 - 15276.8 = 2923.2 mana deficit. Less than 2 pots, very doable with only 2 hot targets.
Chicken/Apparation are correct in the fact that the spell changes really won't be hurting the majority of people's tactics on Patchwerk. I use HT7, most other druids in my guild use HT8, as I posted in the druid forums:
Rank Old Diff New
7 100% -7.6% 92.4%
8 100% +3.71% 103.71%
I'm really not losing much as far as this fight is concerned, and I'll most likely switch out a bit of my +healing for MP5 gear to take advantage of Rank 8.
It simply makes a spammable button that will fire off the heal of your choice when your designated tank gets HS. With it we were able to assign 3-4 healers to each OT, calculate how large heals they needed, and down Patchwerk after 3 hours of attempts from scratch. It's a "weak" way of learning the encounter, since you leave yourself completely open to whipes due to disconnects and you don't really learn anything, but we only have a few weeks left of the "current" patchwerk anyway.
It also allows you to do the fight with slightly worse gear and less consumables, since it basically minimizes mana expenditure for OT healing. With my t2+ gear anno may'06, I was at 85% mana before our tank died at 25%, which drained me. The #7 dps'er wore shadowcraft chest and skilled fighting blade.
So, we spent our first night on Patchwerk on Saturday. Got a solid two hours on him.
We got him to 50% using the MT/OT1/OT2/OT3 setup finalizing on 4/6/4/2 healing. We normally run with 13 healers and bumped it up to 16 for this fight.
I'm probably going to move Priests & Pallies dedicated to OT1 and OT2 since they have a big heal that takes a 2.5 second cast. Focus dr00ds and the rest on the MT/OT3.
HOWEVER - we kinda struggled on getting the MT to be the MT. This obviously can goof up healing strategy.
How do you make sure your MT becomes the MT so your healing assignments are done correctly?
(like how I worded that to sound like like a healing question as opposed to a pull question? ;) )
Your "MT" should be your highest-threat warrior. If you have a tank with Thunderfury they are the natural candidate for this. Also, OT1 should be careful about pushing his threat generation TOO hard, because he will be getting HS'd all the time and will have infinite rage. OT1 surpassing the MT is almost a sure wipe unless people adjust VERY quickly.
Are you talking about actually leading off or your "MT" getting surpassed by one of the offtanks as the fight went on? Initially, it's a no-brainer, tell your OTs to give it a second before using threat-generating specials so that your MT gets initial aggro (ideally he should hit him as he's pulling him back onto the tanking position and then follow up with an ability) and then ask them to be careful (use KTM if you have it). HS adds a static amount of bonus threat (~1000 iirc) on top of the rage that OT1 in particular is generating and your MT shouldn't be slacking -- especially if the OTs are going all out.
So, our alleged MT would "pew pew" him with his bow/gun and Patchie would come cruising on over.
Our 3 OTs are sitting and waiting and when Patchie gets in range they'd start whacking him.
Sometimes, a specific OT would end up being MT and the MT would end up being an OT. This goofs our healing all up. Tank dies. People yell at healers. I feel shame.
Other times, which I particularly enjoyed - the same OT would take the initial HS and then take a normal hit right after that. I'm assuming he went from OT to MT in a blink causing the back-back hit and he'd go down like a <insert funny comment here>.
So we finally said "Okay, since you're destined to be the MT we'll just setup for it" and everything went much better.
We're trying to understand the threat/aggro routine. I was under the impression that the first person on the aggro chart is stuck in the MT slot until he dies. Apparently this is not the case and an OT can potentially pass him. If this is the case, then it sounds like our OTs should do all the things they normally do to get and maintain aggro without passing the MT.
If you assign your best geared tank as OT1, he may be so used to slamming on massive initial threat (bloodrage, hs, ss) that he can't help it. Or he takes pride in being able to pull aggro even if it's the dumbest thing he can do. Or perhaps your assigned MT for the encounter just isn't experienced enough to be able to ramp up a good aggro lead.
But yeah, you got the gist of it. OT2 and 3 can probably go all out after the first 5-10 seconds, but OT1 can feasibly pull aggro quite a bit into the encounter, since he has MT-like rage generation (depending on your heal rotation). If your OT1 is unable to control himself (or the MT is unable to keep up), switching them around is probably the best idea. You'll eat some more/bigger HS's by having a worse geared OT1, but at least you won't get the dreaded MT switch.
Question about buffs that came up earlier in this thread, and also in our raids. Someone in our guild was saying that mageblood no longer stacks with blessing of wisdom. Can someone confirm or deny this?
11/17/06, 4:05 PM
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