Sess - I notice you say your OT3 has 9500 health, Is that with Flask? What's his AC (with stoneshield/mark/450 pot)? I ask because if he's not hitting 10550 with full buffs, then your problem is that he can get 1-shotted by a Hateful Strike
He got TF, 2pieces of DN, shoulders from fankriss and the useuall rings(Archi & brood). He got good enough gear, he only died once bcause of the globalcooldown and the stoneshield potion. We actually had that happening once again last night on another tank, so we told the tanks to only HS upon pot CD to avoid this. I guess you are alliance since you find 9500 HP buffed low.
We got him down yesterday after another 1hour 30min or so(3hours 30min in total) and I would say patchy is the most overrated boss in wow.
Our problem all along was just that healers had to get used to syncing their heals and I also belive some of the problems were that shamans renew'd all their totem at once. We brough some healers extra aswell yesterday and after one go we had the same feeling as Arawethion, we hadn't downed any consumables and patchy was on 18% when we wiped. "Ok, he would have been dead by now if we poped up". So we poped up and some tries after he was dead. After that we also went abit further into the Abomination wing to find Grobbulus bended over with the shoulders ready for us.
This is how our healing looked like at the end, I would call consistant;
MT - Druid Druid Druid Priest Shaman
OT1 - Shaman Shaman Priest Priest Priest Priest
OT2 - Shaman Priest Priest Priest
OT3 - Druid(FF bitch) Shaman (Reactive healing dependant on the other tanks HP)
17 Healers
This worked really well and the only times we had tanks dying were either in the pull or healers going oom(in the dry practise).
How does it require extra healers, you have the same in both examples?
Sorry, I was just doing the examples with our normal setup. But was also asking if it is worth bringing in more and which healing assignments seem to be the most effective.
We did patchwerk this week for the first time. We got him to 1% once (tank died at 6%). But somehow we cant get the pull right afterwards.
We where very lucky and had 16 healers online, this was our setup:
MT: druid, druid, druid, shaman, priest
OT1: priest, shaman, shaman, priest, priest
OT2: priest, shaman, shaman, priest, priest
OT3: Druid
We where using a strategy where the healers on OT1 and OT2 where spamming 1600-1800 heals with a 2.5 second cast. The idea being that OT3 would barely get hit. It went fine until we got that 1% whipe. After that either OT2 or OT3 wasnt getting hit by HS. once OT3 got hit at the start once but didnt get any HS either.
Anyone have any suggestions on how we should start?
Do you think this healing strategy will work or should we try to change it to reactive casting on OT2?
Edit maybe I should be a bit more clear about what we do now.
The MT pulls, OT1, 2 and 3 stand together, rest of the raid stands back.
OT 3 stands with his back to Patchwerk. OT1 and OT2 just start hitting him.
Sometimes he skipped OT2 and went for OT3 instead while OT2 has more HP.
Usually OT3 didnt get hit within 20 seconds because OT1 and OT2 where healed up already.
Tharos | There are no stupid questions, just stupid people
I would suggest bringing another two healers, put one on OT1 and have 2 in total on OT3. Those 2 on OT3 is supposed to be able to heal him up to 100% with 2heals each.
We pull excactly like that aswell and uhm.. you need to tell the healers on OT1&OT2 to heal abit less in the begining. For what its worth we didnt move in with melee dps before OT3 lost hp.
Anyone have any suggestions on how we should start?
Do you think this healing strategy will work or should we try to change it to reactive casting on OT2?
Edit maybe I should be a bit more clear about what we do now.
The MT pulls, OT1, 2 and 3 stand together, rest of the raid stands back.
OT 3 stands with his back to Patchwerk. OT1 and OT2 just start hitting him.
Sometimes he skipped OT2 and went for OT3 instead while OT2 has more HP.
Usually OT3 didnt get hit within 20 seconds because OT1 and OT2 where healed up already.
Having OT pop Last Stand and then click it off remains one of the better ideas I've seen to force a stable start to the fight.
As for us, we do 5/5/1/4 or 5/5/1/5 these days and it tends to work fine. Personally I stack shamans on the MT and then put one each on OT1 and OT2. Shamans tend not to have the in-combat regen optimal for sustaining the level of healing needed for OTs -- I think, anyway. A bunch of shamans can keep the MT covered chaincasting HW5 for the whole fight -- I like to mix in chain heal 1 now and then to get more ancestral procs on OTs and provide a bit of healing to whoever is currently injured. Usually we end up with 3 shamans on the MT, plus a priest. Maybe a fourth.
There's no need to waste Last Stand in the start. If your warrs are well geared enough, you can get them to fairly close HP numbers. Then just have the third tank use an extra health buff that tanks 1 and 2 are not using in the start that puts him above at least tank 2. Have him take a HS and click it off, or have tanks #1 and #2 click it on after #3 has taken a HS.
Of course, this only works if you have three well-geared offtanks, if the third tank has significantly inferior gear than #1 and #2, then he won't get close enough in HP or the 2 first tanks would have to gimp their HP too much.
There's no need to waste Last Stand in the start. If your warrs are well geared enough, you can get them to fairly close HP numbers. Then just have the third tank use an extra health buff that tanks 1 and 2 are not using in the start that puts him above at least tank 2. Have him take a HS and click it off, or have tanks #1 and #2 click it on after #3 has taken a HS.
Of course, this only works if you have three well-geared offtanks, if the third tank has significantly inferior gear than #1 and #2, then he won't get close enough in HP or the 2 first tanks would have to gimp their HP too much.
Assuming the tank has a LGG, that's the way to go. The 5-minute cooldown means it'll be up again before the end of the fight. Your tank certainly won't be using it at any other time.
Sess - I'm Horde, All of our tanks (even the undead) can go into a fight with over 10k health with no World Buffs, just excessive use of Pots (Rumsey Rum, Chimerok Steaks, Elixir of Fort, Titans, PW:F, Imp, Mark). We had one at 12k health with the EPL health buff, and he was also the one with the best avoidance - amusing watching him be the target for 10 HS in a row (dodged 4, took 1, NS healed by a shaman that wanted to drop a totem, dodged 4 more, took 1, then OT2 took the next one)
Well, after last nights debacle on Patchwerk (3 hours of wipes) I can definately see the benefit of other methods, Lag is a real killer, I don't think we had an attempt without at least 1 disconnect, and our addon makes it difficult to change targets/ranks. Definately going to have our coder look into a better method.
We've never had issues with making sure people get targeted, the OT's wait for the MT to get a good lead (10s), then begin attacking, the DPS waits a bit longer. Ever since adding the delay, they remain in the same positions. The only thing I could think of is something like the 6/9 Dreamwalker (+350 health) increasing one tank above the others.
This is not a skilled fight for healers. That's one of the toughest things to understand. You don't need to demonstrate abilities to cancel heals. You don't need to think much about the rank of heal you're using. If you're attempting Patchwerk and are using full buffs (Mageblood, Brilliant Mana Oil, Kreeg's Stout Beatdown, Nightfin Soup), you will be able to spam Greater Heal rank 1 for 7 minutes - with 3 x Major Mana Pots and 3 x Demonic Runes.
As a priest, your Greater Heal rank 1 should be hitting for over 2k on a target buffed with amplify magic. You will want to be doing this the whole fight. If it doesn't, your gear doesn't cut it as you will either not be healing enough OR you will have to uprank and you will not be able to last 7 mins. The more it hits for per cast, the safer things will be.
You should get 3 Inner Focus uses. Time these well. Use your pots early. Your tank should come out of each HS with around 3-4k health. If he doesn't, uprank your next heal only.
The math doesn't work out on this at all.
7 minutes = 420 seconds = 168 casts of GH rank 1, so your raw healing should end up around 335,000 if you go the full 7 minutes.
168 casts x 314 mana for a GH 1 is 52,752 mana.
Assume you start with 8500 base mana buffed, 5400 on average for 3 mana pots (average of 1800 each), 3600 mana from 3 runes.
So we're up to 17500 mana. That means in 7 minutes you have to regenerate 35252 mana, or the equivalent of 420 mana/5, while casting. That would be the equivalent of 2188 spirit, meditation, and 3 pc Trans. (Or you could imagine a sliding scale between 420 mana/5 and 2188 spirit.) You could probably do it with great gear, full consumables, and 3-4 innervates, but not simply with gear and buffs alone.
With most of the math I've done, a healer will regenerate between 10k and 20k mana over the course of this fight, depending on gear. Paladins and Shamans are bigger wildcards because of the lack of spirit regen of any sort while casting.
Well, after last nights debacle on Patchwerk (3 hours of wipes) I can definately see the benefit of other methods, Lag is a real killer, I don't think we had an attempt without at least 1 disconnect, and our addon makes it difficult to change targets/ranks. Definately going to have our coder look into a better method.
Boevis, we have our healers make a Player Target list of the three tanks in the order they would heal them.
So if I'm on OT2, we discuss between the OT2 healers who is healing which OT if OT2 dies.
So I'll have a list with OT2, then maybe OT1 in the second slot, and OT3 in the third slot. Patchwerk is not a good fight to be thinking about what you have to do next, even for a second, so pre-planning where to go helps a lot. We occassionally lose a tank, but transition healers to the new tanks very quickly.
The list is also nice to have because you can see who is getting hit, how all the healers are doing, etc.
Just in case, to make a PT, go to the CT raid tab and right click on the player's name, and choose player target.
7 minutes = 420 seconds = 168 casts of GH rank 1, so your raw healing should end up around 335,000 if you go the full 7 minutes.
168 casts x 314 mana for a GH 1 is 52,752 mana.
Assume you start with 8500 base mana buffed, 5400 on average for 3 mana pots (average of 1800 each), 3600 mana from 3 runes.
So we're up to 17500 mana. That means in 7 minutes you have to regenerate 35252 mana, or the equivalent of 420 mana/5, while casting. That would be the equivalent of 2188 spirit, meditation, and 3 pc Trans. (Or you could imagine a sliding scale between 420 mana/5 and 2188 spirit.) You could probably do it with great gear, full consumables, and 3-4 innervates, but not simply with gear and buffs alone.
I wouldn't completely discount his math unless you have every single detail of his character for the fight. On my shaman I've calculated my absolute mana pool (all buffs + flask + mana tide, mana spring, enamored water spirit + pots/runes + mana regen) to be around 29,000 mana to work with. I'd imagine a priest would be higher than that.
7 minutes = 420 seconds = 168 casts of GH rank 1, so your raw healing should end up around 335,000 if you go the full 7 minutes.
168 casts x 314 mana for a GH 1 is 52,752 mana.
Assume you start with 8500 base mana buffed, 5400 on average for 3 mana pots (average of 1800 each), 3600 mana from 3 runes.
So we're up to 17500 mana. That means in 7 minutes you have to regenerate 35252 mana, or the equivalent of 420 mana/5, while casting. That would be the equivalent of 2188 spirit, meditation, and 3 pc Trans. (Or you could imagine a sliding scale between 420 mana/5 and 2188 spirit.) You could probably do it with great gear, full consumables, and 3-4 innervates, but not simply with gear and buffs alone.
With most of the math I've done, a healer will regenerate between 10k and 20k mana over the course of this fight, depending on gear. Paladins and Shamans are bigger wildcards because of the lack of spirit regen of any sort while casting.
Here's data from our last two Patchwerk kills:
This week
Last week
In both cases, I spend about 25k mana on the entire fight. (I'm healing OT1 in both cases.) This week I regenned a bit less mana, partially because the fight was slightly shorter but also because I was an idiot and forgot to pop my mageblood potion until two minutes into the fight. What's most interesting in these screenshots is the percentage of my time spent inside the five second rule (FSR): 92% this week, 91% last week. The conclusion is obvious: MP5 is better than spirit in this fight, taking 4.5 points of spirit to equal 1 MP5. (As a point of comparison, on a fight like Twin Emps where I'm usually spending about 65% of my time inside the FSR, it takes almost exactly 3 points of spirit to equal 1 MP5.)
Yeah, I like mana/5 for that reason. There aren't many fights where you have heavy burst healing followed by lots of downtime to regenerate.
When we first started Patchwerk, we figured out how much mana different healers would have so we could pick spell ranks that would give us the most healing but still let us last for the entire fight.
7 minutes = 420 seconds = 168 casts of GH rank 1, so your raw healing should end up around 335,000 if you go the full 7 minutes.
168 casts x 314 mana for a GH 1 is 52,752 mana.
Assume you start with 8500 base mana buffed, 5400 on average for 3 mana pots (average of 1800 each), 3600 mana from 3 runes.
So we're up to 17500 mana. That means in 7 minutes you have to regenerate 35252 mana, or the equivalent of 420 mana/5, while casting. That would be the equivalent of 2188 spirit, meditation, and 3 pc Trans. (Or you could imagine a sliding scale between 420 mana/5 and 2188 spirit.) You could probably do it with great gear, full consumables, and 3-4 innervates, but not simply with gear and buffs alone.
With most of the math I've done, a healer will regenerate between 10k and 20k mana over the course of this fight, depending on gear. Paladins and Shamans are bigger wildcards because of the lack of spirit regen of any sort while casting.
12m/5 - mageblood
12m/5 - b. mana oil
8m/5 - nightfin
40m/5 talented bow
72m/5 - on my gear
I believe the spirit formula for priests is SPI/4 + 13.something
I have exactly 350spi buffed (hehe crazy I know) so that comes out to right at 100.
100 *.3 (for talents +trans)
30m/tick - A tic is 2 seconds, so it's equivilant (*2.5) to 75m/5 from spirit.
144+75 = 219m/5 = 2628m/min = 18,396 regenerated over 7min
Two inner focus = +628mana
19,024 mana regenerated on top of pots.
So we need to come up with 16,228mana.
Using advanced potting strategies you can actually choose to blow through 4 pot cycles and 3 inner focus cycles. Use the first pots the moment you have lost enough mana (I try to keep this right at 30 sec for MM and 40-45sec for DR) that they aren't overfilling your pool on average and they will come up at 2.30/2.45 -- 4.30/4.45 -- 6.30/6.45. Same deal with Inner focus- popping it any timein the first min will bring up a third IF during the 6th min if needed.
So slap on another 3314mana (from pot dm if) leaving you with 12,914 mana to aquire. That's 41 heals to cancel.
But wait. 5 second rule is a priests best friend. If you can wait for a single tick of FSR spirit- that's a 70 mana boost. If you're very very careful with your timing (some people have mods to watch popping in and out of FSR) you can get one tic for every heal you cancel. If you've got good ping and can micromanage your FSR periods you would only need to cancel 33 heals to clear even mana.
Canceling 5 heals per min (one every 12 seconds) is enough for a savvy priest with good gear and full buffs to last the full 7 min with no innervates.
Of course you could also bring in sufficient dps to shorten the fight and make the micromanaging a little kinder. Our first kill was at 6.30 and while it was tight, I could have lasted another 10-15 seconds by popping a flask (I mistimed my pots and I am on such a laggy computer that I cannot cancel more than 2-3 heals every min)
All that said, so much about your ability to last the full period depends on your gear, buffs, and ability to cancel heals quickly. =/
Some of our priests are using R2gheal (they don't have enough +heal to rank down further) and seem to be managing- we even had one shadow priest (flasked) who managed to last the full time (I call him crazy. I'm usually shadow full time but I respecced for Patch). It's a crazy race against mana.... all the better if your DPS can crank it up and shorten the fight.
Those of you who volunteered to be injected with praying mantis DNA, I've got some good news and some bad news.
Bad news is we're postponing those tests indefinitely. Good news is we've got a much better test for you: fighting an army of mantis men.
Pick up a rifle and follow the yellow line. You'll know when the test starts. BSG Quick Reference
I wouldn't completely discount his math unless you have every single detail of his character for the fight. On my shaman I've calculated my absolute mana pool (all buffs + flask + mana tide, mana spring, enamored water spirit + pots/runes + mana regen) to be around 29,000 mana to work with. I'd imagine a priest would be higher than that.
I know what you're saying, but it's not reasonable with the spell rank and the fact that he is recommending chain casting without ever cancelling.
There are two ways to do this fight. One is to pick a spell that you CAN cast for 420 seconds without stopping, and the other is per-incident technique (either reactive or pre-casting) using bigger heals. Both can work, but you have to know your potential mana pool for the fight.
Originally Posted by Bekah
But wait. 5 second rule is a priests best friend. If you can wait for a single tick of FSR spirit- that's a 70 mana boost. If you're very very careful with your timing (some people have mods to watch popping in and out of FSR) you can get one tic for every heal you cancel. If you've got good ping and can micromanage your FSR periods you would only need to cancel 33 heals to clear even mana.
Canceling 5 heals per min (one every 12 seconds) is enough for a savvy priest with good gear and full buffs to last the full 7 min with no innervates.
Bekah, the original point that James was trying to make was that you could spam GH 1 without ever cancelling. The post is on page 7 of this thread. He is also indicating that this should be something that any geared priest should be able to do, and it simply isn't true. I've done the calculations with several different sets of gear of our current healers, and nobody comes close to this mark. From your calculations, even with forcing the extra pot and rune, you still need to come up with an additional 154 mana/5 on your gear between pure mana/5 and casting spirit regen.
For reference, I use Mageblood, brilliant mana oil, nightfin, improved BoW, and with my gear, I am at 219 mana/5 casting regen. With 3 major mana pots, my 7 minute mana pool is approximately 32,000 mana.
I agree completely that cancelling spells is a viable way to go. That's what we do. Our healers generally know their mana pool, we have them pick a spell rank they can cast 65-85 times in a fight. If someone's got great regen gear, might as well have them uprank spells and hit a little harder, reducing the risk to the tank. If someone's got crappy regen, might as well have them downrank a little. It would be dumb to have them cast a rank of spell that will put them OOM 3 minutes into the fight. I believe that's where some people get into trouble on their healing strategies.
Bekah, the original point that James was trying to make was that you could spam GH 1 without ever cancelling. The post is on page 7 of this thread. He is also indicating that this should be something that any geared priest should be able to do, and it simply isn't true. I've done the calculations with several different sets of gear of our current healers, and nobody comes close to this mark. From your calculations, even with forcing the extra pot and rune, you still need to come up with an additional 154 mana/5 on your gear between pure mana/5 and casting spirit regen.
For reference, I use Mageblood, brilliant mana oil, nightfin, improved BoW, and with my gear, I am at 219 mana/5 casting regen. With 3 major mana pots, my 7 minute mana pool is approximately 32,000 mana.
I agree completely that cancelling spells is a viable way to go. That's what we do. Our healers generally know their mana pool, we have them pick a spell rank they can cast 65-85 times in a fight. If someone's got great regen gear, might as well have them uprank spells and hit a little harder, reducing the risk to the tank. If someone's got crappy regen, might as well have them downrank a little. It would be dumb to have them cast a rank of spell that will put them OOM 3 minutes into the fight. I believe that's where some people get into trouble on their healing strategies.
Yar, wasn't trying to prove or disprove you- just throwing some more numbers out there into the fray.
I really think it depends on the extent of gearing. If you've got them (I speak from a priests point of view because a priest is what I play) in full off-set AQ40 healer gear and a few pieces of faith as well- I'm sure you could get to the appropriate amount of regen and (most importantly) DPS to make spamming R1Gheal without cancels viable.
If you think well geared is fully geared through AQ40 (which is dicy as none of a healer's healing gear will come off guranteed drops- 2.5 was a blessing for getting us out of the box and a curse for helping in Naxx healing) and having spent time in other Naxx wings for a few months- then yes. A fully geared person might be able to come at this fight more casually.
If you think fully geared is mostly 8/8trans and jewelry... maybe even sporting ye olde Benediction- then no... that player will have to come at the fight armed with consumables and it's still going to be difficult at best.
Anyone still struggling to gear out in BWL gear will be a fish out of water on this fight, which makes recruiting new healers difficult ><
Those of you who volunteered to be injected with praying mantis DNA, I've got some good news and some bad news.
Bad news is we're postponing those tests indefinitely. Good news is we've got a much better test for you: fighting an army of mantis men.
Pick up a rifle and follow the yellow line. You'll know when the test starts. BSG Quick Reference
we use 5 ppl with 1.5s casts on OT1, i am usually one of them. thats max rank flash heal, so about the most mana inefficient spell i can come up with. we mostly heal reactively, but ofc if OT1 has taken no dmg, next hit goes to him so i cast and abort a bit too. using this strategy, OT1 is a real pain in the ass manawise as hes full for the 2nd next HS again (if ppl don't watch porn that is).
i have about 300 spi in normal raid buffs plus slightly over 100 mana/5. i cba to fish so i use sta/spi food, lesser mana oil, mageblood potion and major mana/dem runes. also we have mana tide for ot1 healers. with all that stuff, i have never been oom yet (not getting innervated usually). my gear is also not exactly the best, only have T3 gloves, as i am too greedy to bid the insane dkp my colleagues are spending on fairly minor (imho) upgrades and the rest is mostly the best bwl/aq40 stuff avaible.
summary: if your healers complain about being oom, they either have shitty gear or they just don't buff/pot enough. i don't think you can come up with a worse healing setup mana wise (its quite consistent though due to short healing times, we never wipe due to tanks dieing as long as aggro doesn't get fucked up) and its still fine. really, if you have man aissues, you're either not geared up enough or you simply don't pot well/often enough. nn is pretty sick when it comes to consumeables and patchwerk is the first time you have to get used to that. :)
Do you spend alot of time outside of the 5sr?
edit: from reading, it looks like you wouldn't, but it's best to ask. :)
Most healing strategies won't. The above poster using flash heal sounds a bit dicey- I'd guess he/she gets to spend enough time outside of FSR to regen enough to make that viable tho.
Personally- given my crappy computer and difficulty canceling spells- I spend less than 10% of my time outside of the FSR.
Those of you who volunteered to be injected with praying mantis DNA, I've got some good news and some bad news.
Bad news is we're postponing those tests indefinitely. Good news is we've got a much better test for you: fighting an army of mantis men.
Pick up a rifle and follow the yellow line. You'll know when the test starts. BSG Quick Reference
no i don't. OT1 healing with flash heals is jsut really really sucky mana wise. i'd guess 90%+ inside at least. but if you are willing to spend all the possible consumeables, its easily doable. i'm not saying its what you should be going for cause its really expensive, but guilds doing patchy in nax should have healers in compareable gear and if i can sustain this very inefficient healing with high potting without innervates, greater heal based strategies should never have oom issues. if they do, your healers are greedy fucks (or just don't have the gear, but well, i am quite average geared for a guild farming AQ40 since a couple of months).
09/20/06, 2:20 AM
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