Don't start with a 5pt SnD. I usually start with a 2pt and work my way up from there.

My current gear:

(60.6+(972/14))*0.92 + (55.3+(972/14))*0.92*0.75

Adds up to 205.7 white DPS pre-SnD.

SnD increases that by 30%, or 61.7DPS (before crits, don't like dealing with crits for white DPS, but I did go for +hit, sue me). With crits, it's 79.6DPS added by SnD.

You can get a 2pt SnD up after 4-5 seconds depending on the timing of the energy tick.

A 5 point SnD will take 19 seconds, or about 9 seconds with a thistle tea (this is also without taking AR into account yet).

Relentless Strikes yields you an average of 15 more energy with a 5pt SnD compared to a 2pt SnD. That's 1/4 of a backstab.

So, given the 10ish extra seconds it will take you to get SnD into place using 5pt than 2 point, you're losing 796 damage. Unless your backstab averages 3184 damage (taking both crits and non-crits into account), you're losing damage.

Personally, my backstab averages about 980, so, a fourth of a backstab is about 250 damage. Hence, if I can't get to 5pt SnD 3 seconds after my 2pt SnD, I'm wasting energy even trying when I'm opening up my combo.

2pt SnD works fabulously with Bonescythe 4pc because you are statistically likely to get a crit on one of the two backstabs, and only need one energy tick to SnD.

Generally the pattern for me is 2 -> 4/5 -> 5.

'cause if he doesn't know how to play a rogue he probably has 4 bonescythe right :P

It also works beautifully with 3 piece Veiled Shadows, since SnD is only 15 energy, guaranteeing a SnD within one tick, ever.

It also works well if you lack either!

Right, guys? Right? SYmpathize with me here :(


Honestly though, as long as the fight lasts somehwere longer than 2:30, starting with a 2pt SnD will net the most efficient results in terms of damage vs. energy efficiency, especially since now, with AR in most combat daggers builds, you can pop that after a vanish and build up to 5 easily.

Usually, I just start SnD with 1 CP, even though that might not be particulary energy/time efficient. Once I get a few more BS, I can do what Wodin suggests though, but as it is now I cringe when I put in 2 consecutive backstabs and need to wait 2x ticks in order to use SnD ;P

Ohhhhhhhhhh idea.

Bring like a really shitty weapon (we're talking lvl 10-ish green or whatnot here, preferably really really fast).

As soon as the mob is pulled, but before dps is called to engage, SS a couple times and turn off auto-attack after each one. Free CP for when DPS engage is called!

I've tried that on occasion. Also Garroting the boss before DPS is called. Generally I find it's not worth the time and potential splash damage.

I did a java program to simulate the results of different opening techniques, the most efficient ones according to my testing was doing 5 SS in a row, SND, or doing BSx2 tea BSx3 SND about tied at the top. Now with AR I use both tea and adrenaline rush at the start of some fights, with some feinting. Also depends on who tanks of course )

AR+tea+feint?
You sure this is efficient?
Normally I start with 1 or 2 SnD, then 3 and then this gives me enough time for a 5cp SnD.
And then use AR+BF.

One of the major reasons to get 4pc BS, its so nice to stab stab Snd without waiting that extra couple of seconds.